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You are missing the point. The sculptors and model designers of GW and FW put a lot of effort into making those models. Recasters are making money off of someone else's hard work, and drawing money away from the people who put all that effort into making those models.

And if you were buying those sculpted models then fair enough, but you're not, you're buying copies of the sculpts that can be mass produced for mere pennies, mass production on the scale that Games Workshop does should mean cheap models, due to economies of scale, but this is not the case. For the price we pay, the models should be assembled and painted to a near Eavy Metal standard, not simply a cardboard box full with some 99 pence worth of mass produced plastic gakk.

Suppose you were a painter. You spent weeks painting beautiful landscape pictures. And then some bastard comes along, copies the picture, and sells it, making money off of your effort. And then because his prices are cheaper, you don't get any money for the painting that you had made. You would be angry. After all, you would deserve the money for your hard work, not some thief.

This happens, it's not even illegal as long as you're not claiming that the one you are selling is the original, back in my oil painting days I used to paint and sell copies of famous paintings, it was fine because the people I sold to were aware they were copies not the origional.

And that is exactly the case here. Recasting is theft. Theft is illegal and detestable. By buying recasts you are stealing money from the sculptors who deserve said money, and giving it to filthy criminals. So before you click the buy button, think about the blood sweat and tears that went into making the original model, before you give your money to some sweaty Chinese copycat.

I understand perfectly that Chinese laws are different. However, those laws are wrong and need changing. Just because something is does not mean it should be so.

But then I imagine the only reason you support these recasters is because you are too much of a skinflint to buy the real thing.

Mike712 wrote:

You are missing the point. The sculptors and model designers of GW and FW put a lot of effort into making those models. Recasters are making money off of someone else's hard work, and drawing money away from the people who put all that effort into making those models.

And if you were buying those sculpted models then fair enough, but you're not, you're buying copies of the sculpts that can be mass produced for mere pennies, mass production on the scale that Games Workshop does should mean cheap models, due to economies of scale, but this is not the case. For the price we pay, the models should be assembled and painted to a near Eavy Metal standard, not simply a cardboard box full with some 99 pence worth of mass produced plastic gakk.

Nonsense.

As it is, biggest brands tend to be most expensive for consumer. It's a fact of life. Red Bull, Apple, Mercedes, Evian...

 Squigsquasher wrote:
I understand perfectly that Chinese laws are different. However, those laws are wrong and need changing. Just because something is does not mean it should be so.

But then I imagine the only reason you support these recasters is because you are too much of a skinflint to buy the real thing.

That's a textbook example of ethnocentricism, you don't see them that blatantly much these days.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
I understand perfectly that Chinese laws are different. However, those laws are wrong and need changing. Just because something is does not mean it should be so.

But then I imagine the only reason you support these recasters is because you are too much of a skinflint to buy the real thing.

Or maybe their laws(apart from their human rights laws which are nothing other than deplorable) are in fact better.

Don't presume to know my financial tastes, this is nothing to do with being a skinfilnt, hell I collect Star Wars Statues that cost £100s a piece, but if I can buy the same thing or something better and cheaper elsewhere I will do, that's just smart, it's basic consumer economics, something that Games Workshop doesn't seem to have the most basic understanding of because until now they have not experienced any significant competition.

If I feel like I'm not getting value for money, which I don't because Games Worshop products are horrible value for money, the perceived value and real value falls far below what they are charging then I will go to someone else.

I've spent £1000s on genuine Games Workshop and Forgeworld products, most dating back to when their prices were more sensible, now their prices are a rip off and they wont see much more money from me until their prices drop somewhere in the region of 40% or their product is substantially improved somehow.

Mike712 wrote:


You just don't get it, in China where this is happening they have different laws regarding IP they are not breaking the law by recasting Games Workshop/Forgworld or any other products, what you fail to understand is this is how the market in China works. You can buy a Luxury Mercedes in China, but it's not really a Mercedes, or a BMW, or an Iphone, they are Chinese companies simply using well know western companies IP to sell their products, there is no illusion that they are genuine, Games Workshop miniatures are small fry compared to the full scale of copping of IP that happens in China and happens all within the constraints of Chinese law. To call them criminals is simply incorrect.

Now please do some research before you try to argue a point of which you have little understanding.

Don't throw stones mr. glass house...

China is part of the World Intellectual Property Organization. What they are doing in china *IS* illegal and breaking Chinese laws. China just has poor enforcement of many of these laws as much of it is local government enforcement. Just because it is widespread and ignored doesn't mean it is legal there. There is just little recourse for someone to walk into China, find an actual person infringing and then take them to court over it. As far as the officials know, these are legal castings until someone complains within china.

They are breaking the laws in CHINA. The china market 'works' because they have lax enforcement, don't investigate and ask questions and most of the companies being infringed upon have ZERO access to the country in question to bring the parties to bear in a civil court.

There is actually a China-Britain business council exactly for this situation and helping businesses have remedy for counterfeiters.

Also:
http://www.mac.doc.gov/China/Docs/BusinessGuides/IntellectualPropertyRights.htm

So please... do not spout garbage about how it is LEGAL in China and that makes everything ok. It is 100% not legal in CHINA and CHINA does see piracy as a real issue even though they lack the ability to enforce it.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
That isn't saying much, Chinese law is...screwed up to say the least. They are making money off of someone else's hard work, and losing money from the people who actually made the original models. Chinese laws deliberately protect knockoff companies because they want to preserve Chinese business, no matter how morally objectionable.

Why should we have to pay more for an inferior product, from what I've read, many of the recasts are of a better quality than games workshop/forgeworlds own products, if it is the case, GW needs to step up their game or cut prices.

Why should we have to pay more for a storm raven than fully functional digital camera? Games Workshop do not make a premium product, they like to believe they do, but they don't. Games Workshop products are not art until they are painted by us, they are mass produced injection moulded plastic toy soldier kits, if someone can do it better and cheaper than them, then more power to them.

Games workshop as a company have existed without any major competition for around 30 years, this is the number one reason for the annual price increases we see, other companies adapt to cheap competing products from china or die out, and now it's time for Games Workshop to learn to adapt along with the rest of the consumer goods industries.

 LunaHound wrote:
Im assuming scipio realized the significance of the wraith lord seer photo? Anyone else want to deduce for fun? ;p

kan?

It's a complete resin kit not made by GW/FW......

You are missing the point. The sculptors and model designers of GW and FW put a lot of effort into making those models. Recasters are making money off of someone else's hard work, and drawing money away from the people who put all that effort into making those models.

Suppose you were a painter. You spent weeks painting beautiful landscape pictures. And then some bastard comes along, copies the picture, and sells it, making money off of your effort. And then because his prices are cheaper, you don't get any money for the painting that you had made. You would be angry. After all, you would deserve the money for your hard work, not some thief.

And that is exactly the case here. Recasting is theft. Theft is illegal and detestable. By buying recasts you are stealing money from the sculptors who deserve said money, and giving it to filthy criminals. So before you click the buy button, think about the blood sweat and tears that went into making the original model, before you give your money to some sweaty Chinese copycat.

Your analogy assumes that the sculptors are not getting paid because of the recasts, which isn't true.

If you hire a commission sculpt, you pay for it up front. The artist doesn't generally get paid for each copy sold, he is just paid X for the original. So really, you can't compare that to an artist who never had his product bought because of a copy, as that is simply not the case here.

FW is getting screwed out of money, not individual artists. Now most FW sculptors are on some sort of salary I'd assume, and are not freelance designers. As such, they are still paid for their work, and it is managements problem if the company loses money, not really the artists.

I highly doubt that anyone at FW will lose their job from cutbacks caused by some black market activity and a loss of sales. They charge an insane premium, much higher than any other games company. If the prices were more in line with industry standards, then the black market would drop off becuase of the low difference in price.

FW sells 5 marines for $37, double the already high price that GW charges for plastics. On Ebay you can get that same kit, in the same or better quality of cast, for $26. If the FW ones were $30, then there'd be no real reason to buy the recasts, because $4 isn't going to break the bank, unless you are buying like 100 of them. An $11 difference for 5 models is significant though.

Let's look at another popular item from FW, the Contemptor Dreadnought. On FW's site, with XE.com's current rate, a Contemptor runs $48, and weapons run about $13. A GW Dreadnought is $46 and comes with 4-5 weapons, as well as optional parts and decor. So the FW Equivalent would be $113, well over 2x the GW plastic cost. Now that same Contemptor was on Coolcast for $21, with $8 weapons. The body itself is 50% of the FW price, and the weapons are 65% of the FW price. On Ebay Contemptor bodies are about $35, and weapons are still $8.

If FW closed that gap a little, then there'd be no real financial reason to buy recasts. Again, as someone who knows how much labor it takes to actually cast something once molds are already made, FW's prices are not in line with their costs, or they are paying people way too much to pour resin all day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for those thinking that Taobao has good prices, the recasts I see at first glance are way over priced. An example would be a Contemptor Conversion Beamer which goes for $12 USD is listed at 108 Yuan, which is $17 US.

So there's that.

China is part of the World Intellectual Property Organization. What they are doing in china *IS* illegal and breaking Chinese laws. China just has poor enforcement of many of these laws as much of it is local government enforcement. Just because it is widespread and ignored doesn't mean it is legal there. There is just little recourse for someone to walk into China, find an actual person infringing and then take them to court over it. As far as the officials know, these are legal castings until someone complains within china.

China's government don't care and wont act as long as their economy keeps growing, the fact that China is part of the World Intellectual Property Organization is simply a posterity measure to keep everyone in the west happy and quiet.

Where in the landscape picture analogy does it allow for the fact that the finished copy is a better painting than the original?

Mike712 wrote:

China is part of the World Intellectual Property Organization. What they are doing in china *IS* illegal and breaking Chinese laws. China just has poor enforcement of many of these laws as much of it is local government enforcement. Just because it is widespread and ignored doesn't mean it is legal there. There is just little recourse for someone to walk into China, find an actual person infringing and then take them to court over it. As far as the officials know, these are legal castings until someone complains within china.

China's government don't care and wont act as long as their economy keeps growing, the fact that China is part of the World Intellectual Property Organization is simply a posterity measure to keep everyone in the west happy and quiet.

But don't pretend that you are supporting law-abiding citizens in a perfectly legal market transaction then when we all know that is totally not true. Just admit "I waaaaant it and I should get things I want" is your primary motivation and don't claim that you are supporting legal business with a country with different laws.

Actually China's government does care, and it is actually one of the less talked about issues in this presidential election. The US government actually is suing china over a bunch of issues, this being one of them.

The biggest issues they have is lack of manpower to investigate and lack of access to confirm claims. If companies don't register thier patents, copyrights and trademarks in China, they have minimal tools to do anything about it. Hard to enforce copyright infringement for a copyright chinese officials have no ability to confirm.

It is getting better, it is still rampant, and China is making effort even though compared to the west it is a joke. None of it makes it legal so let's just remove that pathetic justification from this discussion and keep it to the 'other' justifications.

I read that a few months back and found it hilarious that America think they can just "sue" China
Hahahahaha

Here's how that's gonna go:

US: We're going to sue you
China: Fine, because we're going to pay any fines by levying a large export tax on all goods we produce, like those many, many electronic components that go into your shiny new iPads and phones and computers and EVERYTHING.
US: Um..call it a draw?

I wish they'd levy a huge export tax.. We'd bring jobs back pretty quickly!

nkelsch wrote:

But don't pretend that you are supporting law-abiding citizens in a perfectly legal market transaction then when we all know that is totally not true. Just admit "I waaaaant it and I should get things I want" is your primary motivation and don't claim that you are supporting legal business with a country with different laws.

Actually China's government does care, and it is actually one of the less talked about issues in this presidential election. The US government actually is suing china over a bunch of issues, this being one of them.

The biggest issues they have is lack of manpower to investigate and lack of access to confirm claims. If companies don't register thier patents, copyrights and trademarks in China, they have minimal tools to do anything about it. Hard to enforce copyright infringement for a copyright chinese officials have no ability to confirm.

It is getting better, it is still rampant, and China is making effort even though compared to the west it is a joke. None of it makes it legal so let's just remove that pathetic justification from this discussion and keep it to the 'other' justifications.

I'm not claiming what I'm doing is legal once recasted products are imported to a country with stringent IP regulation like here in the UK it's breaking the law.

My primary motivation is that as a consumer I will chose the best value product, I wont pay over the odds if I can get a similar product elsewhere cheaper.

Like I said posterity measures, keep everyone happy, nothing really will be done.

Lack of man power, that's hilarious, there's over 1.3 billion of them, if they actually wanted to do something about it, it would be done and at a scale unimaginable to the rest of us.

blingman wrote:
I read that a few months back and found it hilarious that America think they can just "sue" China
Hahahahaha

Can you sue the people who are your primary creditors?

How much money do we owe China? What would we accomplish by suing them? Monetary damages?

And how does one sue an entire country? What court is that settled in? Whose jurisdiction?

 Hulkster wrote:

projectkmo wrote:

 Hulkster wrote:
I think this thread should be locked, its already giving counterfeit sites advertisement.

Says the guy with 13 gallery images, 7 of which are of models that are blatant ripoffs of GW IP.

Where does one draw the line of what is right and wrong? Is it ok to buy, paint and post pics of your models that are obvious ripoffs of GW IP? But wrong to buy a straight-up copy of a GW model?

I think if you researched it a bit, you'd see that GW has gone after those that originally made those GW IP ripoff models you have in your gallery.

They are cool models and I like them too but It really weakens your argument when you have such things in your gallery.

Hey, I never said what my own opinion was on whether its right or wrong, or where I draw the line. As you can see in my gallery, I have been around the block when it comes to rare minis. I just think, that as a site and community, if you frown upon promoting counterfeit sites then lock this thread. The curious will stumble upon all the alternatives that are out there, just as I did when I saw "hey somebody makes primarch models that dont exist!"

These threads always seem to turn into a debate about the evils of GW or those dastardly Chinese and there counterfeiting ways.

All I'm saying is that is that these piracy debates always seem to promote piracy. If as a community that is not something you want to do, a la what happened when belloflostsouls revealed miniatureshobby, then you should lock the thread.

If that is the case then I apologize. It was late and it seemed a little Pot/Kettle/Black-ish etc.

As I said though, I like those models in your gallery, especially the Horus one. I'm not excusing or condoning the IP infringement or the straight-up re-casting of models but I do understand that there are enough people out there (demand) over the years that would love to own model/s representing the various Primarchs etc such that if GW/FW were smart, they would have created/issued them themselves ages ago. Like so many of the various model/weapon options that are found in the various codices that don't have an official GW model. Someone else takes the initiative to design/create an acceptable stand-in model (which may or may not be IP infringement - see Chapterh**** etc) for those missing from the GW/FW line-ups.

As for straight-up re-casting - I know it's wrong and should not be encouraged/supported etc period.

That said, I have seen a number of re-casts and they were very high quality with little or no flash on any of the parts. It was if most of the items had been cleaned prior to being shipped. Packaging was well done on the few occasions we're I've witnessed an un-boxing. Bubbles? I don't recall seeing any actually. Bent and warped items? Again, nothing like I've witnessed over the years from FW. I recall one item I saw (re-cast) that had one blemish and had been filled (not sanded though) prior to shipping.

So I can understand peoples desire for better QC from FW. Even with FW's excellent CS (which I have needed a # of times and was/am thankful for) it would still be nice to see FW QC catch more prior to shipping, especially for those overseas.

Price? As many others have previously stated, there is a lot of money invested in the creation of new models which a re-caster does not need to worry about. I would imagine that most Asian re-casters have VERY VERY little overhead when it comes to employee wages/benefits etc. which would allow for them to sell at a much lower price. Even so, I'm fairly certain (though I can't back it up) that FW makes a very tidy profit on most of its kits such that they likely could lower prices and still do fine but again, I'm only speculating. So while re-casting is straight-up WRONG, I can understand the appeal to a lot of folks.

Who knows, maybe this will turn out like the music pirate issue... I believe there was some study recently that determined that people who have pirated music, also BUY A LOT more music than those who have not/do not pirate music.

Mike712 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

But don't pretend that you are supporting law-abiding citizens in a perfectly legal market transaction then when we all know that is totally not true. Just admit "I waaaaant it and I should get things I want" is your primary motivation and don't claim that you are supporting legal business with a country with different laws.

Actually China's government does care, and it is actually one of the less talked about issues in this presidential election. The US government actually is suing china over a bunch of issues, this being one of them.

The biggest issues they have is lack of manpower to investigate and lack of access to confirm claims. If companies don't register thier patents, copyrights and trademarks in China, they have minimal tools to do anything about it. Hard to enforce copyright infringement for a copyright chinese officials have no ability to confirm.

It is getting better, it is still rampant, and China is making effort even though compared to the west it is a joke. None of it makes it legal so let's just remove that pathetic justification from this discussion and keep it to the 'other' justifications.

I'm not claiming what I'm doing is legal once recasted products are imported to a country with stringent IP regulation like here in the UK it's breaking the law.

My primary motivation is that as a consumer I will chose the best value product, I wont pay over the odds if I can get a similar product elsewhere cheaper.

Like I said posterity measures, keep everyone happy, nothing really will be done.

Lack of man power, that's hilarious, there's over 1.3 billion of them, if they actually wanted to do something about it, it would be done and at a scale unimaginable to the rest of us.

You should take your own advice

You just don't get it, in China where this is happening they have different laws regarding IP they are not breaking the law by recasting Games Workshop/Forgworld or any other products,

Now please do some research before you try to argue a point of which you have little understanding.

Your utter lack of understanding of the legalities probably extends the the lack of understanding of the free market. I am curious what your career is? Most people have jobs as a direct or indirect result of the 'western' marketplace working the way it does, copyrights included... Blatantly disregarding the marketplace and breaking the law harms the economy and loses people jobs. It is part of the reason the world economy is in the state it is because people 'cheated' in the marketplace by not following the rules. Just because you think you are sticking it to GW with a vindictive attitude of entitlement, doesn't mean it is limited to hurting them as it hurts the economy as a whole. Multiply thousands or millions of people 'cheating' in various industries and various ways and it all adds up.

I don't knowingly do harm to other industries because I don't want to lose my job due to others having the same entitled selfish attitudes towards work I do. I either pay or do without... never consume without paying or via illegal infringing ways. I highly recommend 'doing without' as no one has the right to own things.

If no one has the right to own things, as you exactly said Nkelsch, then GW doesn't have the right to own it's designs, and more so all IP law is pointless.

If no one owns anything, then pretty much all matters of theft are void.

People have every right to own things, and that has been the case since the beginning of mankind, regardless of where mankind began.

Some cultures don't view certain things as ownable, such as native Americans and land. But those same cultures do accept ownership over personal property, such as clothing, tools, food etc.

If I don't have the right to own something, then neither does GW.

 Aerethan wrote:
If no one has the right to own things, as you exactly said Nkelsch, then GW doesn't have the right to own it's designs, and more so all IP law is pointless.
.

This isn't IP, this is copyright. And they do have the right to own their copyright.

You don't have a right to own a copy of their copyright. You can have a copy under their legal guidelines or not at all... this is where you don't have the right to infringe just because you "waaaaaaaaaaaaant it and should get things you want."

nkelsch wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
If no one has the right to own things, as you exactly said Nkelsch, then GW doesn't have the right to own it's designs, and more so all IP law is pointless.
.

This isn't IP, this is copyright. And they do have the right to own their copyright.

You don't have a right to own a copy of their copyright. You can have a copy under their legal guidelines or not at all... this is where you don't have the right to infringe just because you "waaaaaaaaaaaaant it and should get things you want."

But that isn't what you said. You said

I highly recommend 'doing without' as no one has the right to own things.

So if no one has a right to own things, then neither does GW. Copyrights are ownership, and IP is copyrightable.

And what I can or can't do has little to do with legal guidelines. Just because something is illegal doesn't make it a) wrong, or b) impossible. Plenty of countries have laws that outlaw things that most of us consider morally acceptable, like women showing their faces, or heaven forbid their hair.

Secondly, just because something is illegal doesn't make it impossible to do. I speed on the freeway when traffic permits, as I don't particularly enjoy driving 90 miles to go visit family every other weekend. Do I feel a single bit of remorse or guilt about it? No. Is it illegal? Absolutely. Legality has very little bearing on my moral perception of an action, especially when it's a law that I had no input on.

We live in a country where other people made the rules, and we are expected to abide by them whether we agree or not. In fact, almost every lawmaker in this country is out of touch with the very people who have to obey those laws. Speed limit laws are predicated on the idea that I don't know how to safely drive at 100 MPH, which is in no way true, especially when it's on a 10 mile straight stretch of freeway at 2am on a Tuesday and there isn't another car within 200' of me in any direction.

So no, I don't feel bad about breaking laws that I'm opposed to, or that were made without my input.

nkelsch wrote:

Your utter lack of understanding of the legalities probably extends the the lack of understanding of the free market. I am curious what your career is? Most people have jobs as a direct or indirect result of the 'western' marketplace working the way it does, copyrights included... Blatantly disregarding the marketplace and breaking the law harms the economy and loses people jobs. It is part of the reason the world economy is in the state it is because people 'cheated' in the marketplace by not following the rules. Just because you think you are sticking it to GW with a vindictive attitude of entitlement, doesn't mean it is limited to hurting them as it hurts the economy as a whole. Multiply thousands or millions of people 'cheating' in various industries and various ways and it all adds up.

I don't knowingly do harm to other industries because I don't want to lose my job due to others having the same entitled selfish attitudes towards work I do. I either pay or do without... never consume without paying or via illegal infringing ways. I highly recommend 'doing without' as no one has the right to own things.

No the market is the way it is because the richest and most powerful are greedy and short sited..... The rules that are in place actually assist in allowing them to make the poor and irresponsible choices that have caused untold repercussions for the economy.... and you question my understanding.. I feel we have very polarised opinions on this matter and while I'm not opposed to capitalism in the slightest I am opposed to capitalistic greed, it will be the downfall of all of us.

My career? Drug dealer, Pimp, Attorney to the rich and famous! No really, I work in IT, with some background in business, self employed, I provide very reasonably priced advice and support for individuals and other small businesses.

Mike712 wrote:

My career? Drug dealer, Pimp, Attorney to the rich and famous! No really, I work in IT, with some background in business, self employed, I provide very reasonably priced advice and support for individuals and other small businesses.

And he manages to survive even though India offers the same services at lower prices >.>

You'd think FW could.

 Aerethan wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

My career? Drug dealer, Pimp, Attorney to the rich and famous! No really, I work in IT, with some background in business, self employed, I provide very reasonably priced advice and support for individuals and other small businesses.

And he manages to survive even though India offers the same services at lower prices >.>

You'd think FW could.

I can assure you that my services go far beyond anything that an Indian call centre can offer, my business ethos revolves around cutting costs for my clients while retaining necessary systems functionality, and no that does not mean pirated software and hardware that fell of the back of a lorry, so don't even go there okay.

 Aerethan wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

My career? Drug dealer, Pimp, Attorney to the rich and famous! No really, I work in IT, with some background in business, self employed, I provide very reasonably priced advice and support for individuals and other small businesses.

And he manages to survive even though India offers the same services at lower prices >.>

You'd think FW could.

You would be surprised how low some 'contractors' can undercut competition when they illegally use software. One of the biggest problems we face in IT contracting industry is when companies undercut bids and then later find to have only they were able to be the lowest bidder by either not understanding or blatantly ignoring that the technology solution they pitched had a 200k software licence attached to it which wasn't legally obtained.

I have had three projects this year where we lost a bid to a low-bid small business only to 6 months later be approached by the client with a sole-source bid to take over because the only way it was 'cheaper' was through rampant piracy. If those people could beat us with open source products, hard work and knowledge, more power to them. If they have to do it through ignorance and illegal practices, then they deserve to be found out.

Every industry is impacted by greed and it is not always the people at the top, the self-employed, small businesses cheat just as much as the big guy, it happens at all levels.

And I never speed, and I come to full and complete stop at red lights before turning right... I actually did so before we had red-light cameras on every corner which do not allow drivers to motor through intersections even if they 'think' it is clear because we have way too many pedestrian deaths due to the human brain ignoring unexpected input like pedestrians. I have about 150 speed/redlight cameras within a 5 mile radius of my house and it does save lives. I do not speed because it directly harms people in my community.

Man I hate chinese miniatures, no matter how many you order you're always hungry again in half an hour.

Red light cameras huh?

I think we've veered off topic a bit.

nkelsch wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

My career? Drug dealer, Pimp, Attorney to the rich and famous! No really, I work in IT, with some background in business, self employed, I provide very reasonably priced advice and support for individuals and other small businesses.

And he manages to survive even though India offers the same services at lower prices >.>

You'd think FW could.

You would be surprised how low some 'contractors' can undercut competition when they illegally use software. One of the biggest problems we face in IT contracting industry is when companies undercut bids and then later find to have only they were able to be the lowest bidder by either not understanding or blatantly ignoring that the technology solution they pitched had a 200k software licence attached to it which wasn't legally obtained.

I have had three projects this year where we lost a bid to a low-bid small business only to 6 months later be approached by the client with a sole-source bid to take over because the only way it was 'cheaper' was through rampant piracy. If those people could beat us with open source products, hard work and knowledge, more power to them. If they have to do it through ignorance and illegal practices, then they deserve to be found out.

Every industry is impacted by greed and it is not always the people at the top, the self-employed, small businesses cheat just as much as the big guy, it happens at all levels.

And I never speed, and I come to full and complete stop at red lights before turning right... I actually did so before we had red-light cameras on every corner which do not allow drivers to motor through intersections even if they 'think' it is clear because we have way too many pedestrian deaths due to the human brain ignoring unexpected input like pedestrians. I have about 150 speed/redlight cameras within a 5 mile radius of my house and it does save lives. I do not speed because it directly harms people in my community.

And now you are insinuating that I pander pirated software to clients, buying copies of toys from china and distributing pirated software which would be commercial suicide for me are leagues apart, I have a stellar reputation and can easily back that with references from past clients.

I can charge less because by comparison other companies overcharge, £60-£80 labour costs to fit a new laptop screen is the norm, it's a 30 minute job at most and I charge accordingly.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Red light cameras huh?

I think we've veered off topic a bit.

If only this thread had cameras to make us all post more safely

Mike712 wrote:


And now you are insinuating that I pander pirated software to clients, buying copies of toys from china and distributing pirated software which would be commercial suicide for me are leagues apart, I have a stellar reputation and can easily back that with references from past clients.

I can charge less because by comparison other companies overcharge, £60-£80 labour costs to fit a new laptop screen is the norm, it's a 30 minute job at most and I charge accordingly.

Actually I was pointing out your industry is directly impacted by copyright infringement and someone not playing by the rules can take food directly out of your families mouth... If you felt it was mirroring anything within your oganization or buisness practices, that is on you.

Mike712 wrote:
And if you were buying those sculpted models then fair enough, but you're not, you're buying copies of the sculpts that can be mass produced for mere pennies, mass production on the scale that Games Workshop does should mean cheap models, due to economies of scale, but this is not the case. For the price we pay, the models should be assembled and painted to a near Eavy Metal standard, not simply a cardboard box full with some 99 pence worth of mass produced plastic gakk.

You do realize that the cost of producing a model is not just the raw material cost, right? And that if GW sold their products for "mere pennies" they'd be bankrupt within a week?

Now please do some research before you try to argue a point of which you have little understanding.

Which is ironic given your lack of understanding of economics.