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Old time Squats were much like IG recruiting Fantasy Dwarves. Flak armor, lasguns... Only the Squats had better Toughness.

I had Squat armies for both 40k and epic back in the day (hence the avatar), stopped playing towards the end of 2nd edition and when I came back in 4th they had been subbed out of the game! Essentially the army and concept didn't receive the attention it needed, and so we are left now with 25 year-old minis for people to laugh at and ridicule, when comparing them to modern day minis which have been made for a very different 40k universe to the one that existed back then.

It's pretty amusing that many new players, just buying the 6th edition rulebook, are asking the question 'what the hell are squats'? It shows how effective GWs efforts to completely erase them from 40k folklore have been. This extended from banning their mention on the official GW forums back when they were running (absolutely hilarious, and users constantly used to troll the mods over it - there was even an official rule saying "no mention of squats"!) to the one which I find the most extreme (and, TBH, a little bit creepy) - in the 'Inquisition War' novels by Ian Watson, the Squat character is actually written out of the book, and replaced with a tech-priest. It completely destroyed the character balance and development of the book by the way..
But, we've now got new games developers, new writers, who have presumably replaced one of the top guys at GW who previously said "I'll quit the company before allowing any mention of Squats in 40k" (guessing that person has quit now, although I never found out who is was who had said it! I have a few guesses however..) and these new guys are obviously prepared to have a little bit of a laugh and a joke about it..

I think the Epic version of squats was the most well developed - the war engines in particular made them a fairly popular army during that era, and they were certainly a lot more common than their 40k counterparts. There have been loads of rumours that GW will run with a Demiurg race (new 'dwarves in space', with a new background not connected to those eaten by the Tyranids), and someone I know even reckoned that there are a bunch of proto-types just sat on the shelves at GW towers, waiting for a release window. But, I've got sick of waiting to be honest and there are a few worthy alternatives out there now..

 insaniak wrote:

codemonkey wrote:
Well, thanks to Mantic, the models exist to make a pretty OK Squats army (Forgefathers) All you need is rules.

And better models. As dated as they are, the RT-era Squat models are better than most of what Mantic has put out so far.

The first Forge Father stuff suffered from the very limited resources Mantic were employing at the time - i.e. the fantasy (Kings of War) miniatures, with sci-fi guns added. I agree, they were a bit of a disappointment, even to my dwarf-in-space-starved appetites.

That being said they have done some newer components (metal for now, will be resin in the future) I think are pretty damned nice and give some indication of what they will be in the future. There is a kickstarter coming early next year for Warpath (Mantic's mass-combat system for anyone who doesn't know), and apparently they have got some quite exciting, and far more developed, concepts lined up. Here are a couple of the newer ones (ignore the AT-43 walker )

The Space Marines eventually got T4 in one of the early, early White Dwarf articles that was retroactive. It was also collected as part of the rules updates in the Warhammer Compilation.

But yeah, the last Squats list was in the Black Book Codex that came as part of the 2nd Edition boxed set.

Squat Thunderer squads with 5 man, 5 heavy weapons. You could literally spam an entire list of heavy weapons with no required HQ/Support choices, haha. So, by today's standards with the "forced balance" of the Force Org Chart, you could create a pretty absurd gunline army.

But, really, the best way to do modern Squats is to use them as IGuard. Since there isn't a Move stat anymore, and the Squat models mostly wear flak armor anyway, you can translate most the model range over. Yeah, the Exo-Armor and the trikes are harder to do, but hey, there isn't a single model line that hasn't had models become obsolete in the last 20 years. You could always have them be Space Marine allies, and count them as Power Armor, right?

The real difference, however, is points costs. In 3rd Edition, to fool people into thinking they could play bigger games for the same amount of points, Games Workshop just cut all of the point values roughly in half. A Tactical Squad, for example, went from 300 points, to 150.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The real difference, however, is points costs. In 3rd Edition, to fool people into thinking they could play bigger games for the same amount of points, Games Workshop just cut all of the point values roughly in half. A Tactical Squad, for example, went from 300 points, to 150.

Uh... how is that 'fooling people'...?

If you halve the points costs, then you can play bigger games for the same number of points...

 insaniak wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The real difference, however, is points costs. In 3rd Edition, to fool people into thinking they could play bigger games for the same amount of points, Games Workshop just cut all of the point values roughly in half. A Tactical Squad, for example, went from 300 points, to 150.

Uh... how is that 'fooling people'...?

If you halve the points costs, then you can play bigger games for the same number of points...

Because you could have just played higher points values before.

The point values are entirely arbitrary. What used to be a 2000 point battle just became a 1000 or so point battle. It was really a marketing ploy to sell more models by making it seem like 2000 was still the standard (it was in 2nd, and then 3rd), but now you could (read had to) buy more models to field, lol. Clever wording has always been the GW way. It's kinda like how Codex: Ultramarines got renamed Codex: Space Marines so it would be less confusing to new players as to what codex to buy to play regular Space Marines. However, regardless, the book stayed about the Ultramarines (painting guides, majority of special characters, etc). They just changed the name of the book to achieve a specific reaction/effect from the player base, like they changed the points values of models to alter how you perceived the standard game size/model count.

It was in one of the old Citadel Journals as 3rd Edition came out that Jervis suggested using the models with Imperial Guard rules (to simulate merging with the Imperium) or with Ork rules (placing the Squats as more loosely organised space pirates). On the Ork side their decrease in BS would simulate them having poorer ammunition and supplies ie that shot "missed" because the gun didn't even go bang! Even now I'll break out my trikes as Rough Riders every now and again. The Enginer model makes a cool Enginseer as well. Shame we will never get so see Toughness 8 Ancestor Lords with four powers again. Force Dome was nice against jetbikes.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It was really a marketing ploy to sell more models by making it seem like 2000 was still the standard (it was in 2nd, and then 3rd),

Everything I saw from GW around the release of 3rd edition was suggesting that the game was actually intended to be played around the 1500 point mark. The 'standard' gradually crept back up to 1750-2000 based on tournaments and players just wanting to put more stuff in their armies.


For that matter, while I'm sure GW were happy about the possibility of selling more models, the whole point of the increased army sizes in 3rd was that for pretty much the entire lifespan of 2nd edition people kept trying to play bigger and bigger games. So GW revised the system to make that a little easier to do. The bigger game was pushed every bit as much by the players as by GW.



None of which changes the fact that halving the points cost does let you field more models for the same points limit. So there is no 'fooling' involved there.

I loved squats... I mean I hated them when they were kicky my elvish *ss back in the early days... but they had a ton of character that really make the games seem epic.

Would love to see them back. Would even be willing to start a new army if they were properly supported (i.e. figures and rules).

 insaniak wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It was really a marketing ploy to sell more models by making it seem like 2000 was still the standard (it was in 2nd, and then 3rd),

Everything I saw from GW around the release of 3rd edition was suggesting that the game was actually intended to be played around the 1500 point mark. The 'standard' gradually crept back up to 1750-2000 based on tournaments and players just wanting to put more stuff in their armies.

It's probably just a factor of meta. In my area, we played 2K. Either way, reducing the point values by half means you can field twice as many. It's a near 100% increase of whatever the original amount was.

None of which changes the fact that halving the points cost does let you field more models for the same points limit. So there is no 'fooling' involved there.

Yes, but one of the "features" of 3rd Edition was constantly touted as being able to play bigger games for the same points values.

How was this possible? They dumbed it down and changed rules to funnel games into these decisive close combat scraps. Was anybody actually fooled? God, I'd hope not. But, hey, in the wise words fo Butt head "Some people are dumb". The "fooling" just refers to the fact that GW wasn't just saying what the rules changes were, and not saying that what was 3000 was now 1500. You people are far too focused on that one word. It's not important, lol. Good lord. Let's discuss the relevant portions, not the semantics of obvious hyperbole.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Yes, but one of the "features" of 3rd Edition was constantly touted as being able to play bigger games for the same points values.

Yes...?

Still not seeing how that is 'fooling people' into thinking that they can play larger games for the same points values.

If you create a system whereby you can play larger games for the same points limit, and then you tell people that they can play larger games for the same points limit, that's not fooling people into thinking that they can play larger games for the same points limit. They can play larger games for the same points limit.

The "fooling" just refers to the fact that GW wasn't just saying what the rules changes were, and not saying that what was 3000 was now 1500.

Nope, you've lost me.

You people are far too focused on that one word. It's not important, lol. Good lord. Let's discuss the relevant portions, not the semantics of obvious hyperbole.

Yeah, sorry. I have this annoying habit of assuming that what people say is what they actually mean.


Although so far as I am aware, there's only one of me...

Veteran Sergeant, I think Insaniak just wants you to say "actually, perhaps 'fooling' was the wrong word, I meant they were changing the nature of the way the game played (something which resulted in more models being needed to play, and therefore more sold overall)", or something

Anyway, someone talk about Squats!

@Gitsplitta - have you thought about using the Mantic Forge Fathers? Some of the new models for that range I think are probably pretty close to what GW would have done if they had re-released Squats in the modern era.

I haven't. At the moment I'm not really in the market for yet another army... BUT... I'm always keeping my options open. Once I divest myself of two armies and get my kid's painted to the point where I can pretty much relax on that front... I might be looking for something new and interesting.

 Pacific wrote:
Veteran Sergeant, I think Insaniak just wants you to say "actually, perhaps 'fooling' was the wrong word, I meant they were changing the nature of the way the game played (something which resulted in more models being needed to play, and therefore more sold overall)", or something

He probably wasn't around the game when 3rd Edition came out. If he had been, he'd understand why I use the word "fooling" in that context. Yeah, in clinical retrospective, it doesn't make any sense

It's obviously a context that hasn't survived the last 15 years if you weren't around to remember the way the new edition of the game was played up in White Dwarf and in other promotional material.

I'll let it go as a lack of context. It's not really that important to me to be "right" in this. Especially since that facet of my post is so ridiculously irrelevant, I can't figure out why people are obsessing over it.



Well, i take that back. I've seen people obsess over some really silly stuff on this forum, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised or puzzled at all.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
He probably wasn't around the game when 3rd Edition came out. If he had been, he'd understand why I use the word "fooling" in that context. Yeah, in clinical retrospective, it doesn't make any sense

It's obviously a context that hasn't survived the last 15 years if you weren't around to remember the way the new edition of the game was played up in White Dwarf and in other promotional material.

Not only was I around, I was selling the game... So yes, I saw exactly how it was promoted.

I'll let it go as a lack of context. It's not really that important to me to be "right" in this. Especially since that facet of my post is so ridiculously irrelevant, I can't figure out why people are obsessing over it.

Not obsessing at all. You made a statement that made no sense, I pointed that out, and you tried to explain why it made sense by making a completely different point.

When you make a statement like that, somebody will inevitably ask you to explain it. That's sort of how discussion works.


SO... Squats, eh? Reminds me that I must fish that Exosuit out of the Simple Green that it's been sitting in for the last 6 months or so... Planning on giving it a Reaper Autocannon and using at as the heavy weapons guy in a squad of Red Corsairs Terminators.

Oh Lord I hated those little b*strds.... impossible to kill. I'd wipe out the whole army (back then there were no turn limits or victory objectives) and charge in to kill the last exo-armored squat and my buddy would have him pull the pin on a grenade and drop it at his feet (there were no rules about that either). The squat would pass his saving throw and my eldar would be wiped out... *grumble* Bloody squats...

His Holy Inquisition frowns upon this thread…

You are a few years too late mate, they are in the background section of the rulebook again now

Has anyone noticed this......





I'm on to you GW.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that the passage that mentions the Squats (as well as ratlings) says that they are considered stable enough to openly join the Imperial Guard. I believe that suggests that they're alive and healthy again. Maybe not enough to require an entire codex, but thriving enough to warrant having some in your IG armies (or your CSM army as cultists if you're feeling saucy) if not an entire regiment of them.

 Snrub wrote:
Has anyone noticed this......





I'm on to you GW.

Almost everything Forgeworld has been making are homages to the original late 80s/early 90s artwork and models... I think everyone who has been around the hobby for a while has noticed that, haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haunter! wrote:
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that the passage that mentions the Squats (as well as ratlings) says that they are considered stable enough to openly join the Imperial Guard. I believe that suggests that they're alive and healthy again. Maybe not enough to require an entire codex, but thriving enough to warrant having some in your IG armies (or your CSM army as cultists if you're feeling saucy) if not an entire regiment of them.

The original suggestion, before the Squat ban, had been to play your Squats as Imperial Guard. And people do.

There are a couple of guys over on Warseer who have project logs of their Squat-infused Guard armies. I have some Squats for mine, if it ever gets resurrected for modern IGuard rules.

I play mine as Grey Knights (where do you think the Grey Knights get all of that crazy dark age of technology tech from? The squats of course!)

I use my Exo Armour squats as Paladins, my flak armoured Squats as Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands, my Techmarine Squat as...a Techmarine...My Ancestor Lords as Inquisitors, my Engineer Guildmasters as Jokaero Weaponsmiths, etc.

It works out really well and allows me to use my Squats in a competitive format again. Though it does tend to rankle a few feathers in purists, no one can prove to me that the entire "Tyranids ate them" thing wasn't an inquisition cover up.

What we know about Squats is that they had an almost entire working STC system from the Dark Age of Technology and they knew how to use it. We also know that, unlike the Adeptus Mechanicus, they actually knew how to invent new things and not be afraid to use them without saying silly prayers and doing silly rituals to get them to work.

With that in mind, It doesn't make sense at all for the Imperium to allow the Tyranids anywhere near the Squat Homeworlds where so much STC technology and knowledge would have been lost if the Tyranids had really invaded them and destroyed the Squat homeworlds.

Storyline wise, I think the Imperium tried to origionally wage war on them but could not win because their DAOT tech was too good and they knew how to use it, so the Imperium made pacts and treaties with them instead. Eventually, the Imperium realized how valuable they were as a race due to understanding all that tech, and decided they had better protect them from the galaxy at large. So they engineered the whole Tyranids ate them thing as a way to get them off the radar so to speak. Meanwhile, the Inquisition has been having them make their tech for thousands of years now and have kept their existence a secret from everyone.

Even though that isn't official storyline wise, it seems to fit well enough for my purposes.

The "Squat Ban" is over anyway. There's a passage in the 6th Edition rulebook that mentions them as an existing AbHuman race. The whole "Et by Tyranids" part of the fluff was never "official" anyway. It was a comment made by one of the GW staff. Not ever part of official lore. At some point, whoever was adamant about the Squat Ban has moved on or left the company or been otherwise overruled.

It's very obvious that there's a lot of influence from the old days in the game again. The changes made to 6th, and heck, everything from Forgeworld these days, lol.

Check this guy out:


And then this new release from Forgeworld, lol.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/LEGION_CHAMPION_AND_MASTER_OF_SIGNAL.html

So, fortunately you no longer need any elaborate justification for your army. You can just say "Nope, you're wrong, neck bearded, smelly fluff Nazi!" (should phrase it like that too).

The story is more for why they are Grey Knights than why they are Imperial Guard, not because of a need for justification of why Squats are still in the 40k universe. Though it does cover that too for anyone that continues to try to be a jerk about it. Jervis was the one that gave the excuse that they got "Et" by the nids. And I know who it was that was against them in the studio too but I'm not gonna mention his name because I don't need any defamation lawsuits coming my way.

The bottom line is that they are back in the fluff and in my case, back with a vengeance! I look forward to all the cries of Cheese when my Squats start kicking people's armies around. I look forward to people whining about my Squat armies destroying their carefully laid plans.

I am one of those unfortunate people that spent thousands of dollars on Squat models in the early days of 40k only to have GW wipe them from the game for quite a while. I'm just glad I never got rid of them like so many of my friends did.

It really was awful what happened to the Squats. I mean, every army has had to sacrifice models over the years that are just no longer legal to field because there are no relevant rules.

But to have never even made a half-ass attempt to reintegrate them, even with an IGuard supplement codex, was really a huge customer disservice to people like you who made significant investments in their product.

Honestly, the mismanagement of the Squats and the backlash has been evident in how Games Workshop has handled armies like Sisters of Battle that they aren't sure what to do with or weren't profitable. They've continued to give the models rules so that players can continue using their existing collections. Which is the only decent thing to do while they decide whether or not to continue the range. If only they had, or would do, the same for Squat players. But somehow I doubt GW will acknowledge the mistake openly. Sadly the 6th Edition apology is probably all they'll get, lol.

I'm a bit late to the party, but it's great to see squat's getting some attention. I've always loved the little buggers, but I entered the game just as GW squatted them.

To each his own, but even though it would make them competitive, Squats as GK, don't fit the fluff to me (edit: read the above quote a bit closer and it does make a bit of sense...)[b]. However, I don't think folks have fully explored the ability to use the "allies" rules to make a codex -legal squat force with stats that fairly closely meet squat fluff for almost all the squat units.

I've been comparing the 2nd edition and RT (red book) squat army lists to current IG and SM codicies. Using those two codicies, it's actually a very realistic proposition to put together a force that is almost completely WYSIWYG in terms both weapons and armor. I just started a squat force, and my thoughts on the matter are here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/491830.page
(7th post down for the unit list in progress)

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The "Squat Ban" is over anyway. There's a passage in the 6th Edition rulebook that mentions them as an existing AbHuman race. The whole "Et by Tyranids" part of the fluff was never "official" anyway. It was a comment made by one of the GW staff. Not ever part of official lore. At some point, whoever was adamant about the Squat Ban has moved on or left the company or been otherwise overruled.

Jervis Johnson made that quote.
He has not moved on, left the company, or been overruled.

The funny thing is that the passage in the 6th edition rulebook is about how the Adeptus Terra "officially recognises seventy-three stable abhuman strains within the Imperium. Of these, forty-six types are now listed as extinct, and no records have been received of a further twelve strains for over a generation, suggesting that they too have died out or been assimilated back into the general population".

It's on page 404-405 if you want to read it. Among those recognized in addition to Squats, Ogryn, and Ratlings are "Longshanks", "Pelagers", "Felinids", "Neandors", "Troths", and "Beastmen".

That's a point, but we need to know if Jervis' quote was in a GW publication or somwhere else. If it was publshed in WD or a codex, then it's probable canon.

If it was an offhand remark, a forum post or an interview and if it's not proceeded by a statement that it is the official position of GW, then it's entirely optional. I don't think anyone needs to consider such as cannon.

Otherwise any GW game designer can say anything in an interview and if it isn't contradicted by GW it becomes part of cannon. That's a slippery slope.

Of course trying to nail down a coherent cannon for GW is very problematic to begin with but somehow we keep trying.

Eilif wrote:
That's a point, but we need to know if Jervis' quote was in a GW publication or somwhere else. If it was publshed in WD or a codex, then it's probable canon.

No we don't. What we "need to know" is that GW has effectively whitewashed the Squats from ever having existed. The Demiurg were an attempt to revitalize the concept and pushed onto the backburner where they are (for now) a "background only" race.

If it was an offhand remark, a forum post or an interview and if it's not proceeded by a statement that it is the official position of GW, then it's entirely optional. I don't think anyone needs to consider such as cannon.

Here is the letter. It was (if I remember correctly) posted from his official account on the Fanatic forums when GW still had official forums.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Eilif wrote:
That's a point, but we need to know if Jervis' quote was in a GW publication or somwhere else. If it was publshed in WD or a codex, then it's probable canon.

No we don't. What we "need to know" is that GW has effectively whitewashed the Squats from ever having existed. The Demiurg were an attempt to revitalize the concept and pushed onto the backburner where they are (for now) a "background only" race.

We're going to have to disagree on this one. I maintain that it's always best to know the context for any quote, and there is a contradiction between:
"as effectively whitewashed the Squats from ever having existed"
and
"where they are (for now) a "background only" race"

 Kanluwen wrote:

Here is the letter. It was (if I remember correctly) posted from his official account on the Fanatic forums when GW still had official forums.

Thanks for that. What he says is...
"Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homeworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet."
Was that ever followed through on in a GW publication or does it remain simply something Jervis said they'd decided but not done.

I agree that squats are currently still background, but it sounds like GW never took the time to officially write them out (just dropped them) and now they've been officially returned in the background.

Eilif wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Eilif wrote:
That's a point, but we need to know if Jervis' quote was in a GW publication or somwhere else. If it was publshed in WD or a codex, then it's probable canon.

No we don't. What we "need to know" is that GW has effectively whitewashed the Squats from ever having existed. The Demiurg were an attempt to revitalize the concept and pushed onto the backburner where they are (for now) a "background only" race.

We're going to have to disagree on this one. I maintain that it's always best to know the context for any quote, and there is a contradiction between:
"as effectively whitewashed the Squats from ever having existed"
and
"where they are (for now) a "background only" race"

Where is the contradiction?

The Demiurg do exist. We know that they exist, thanks to the Tau Codex, the Dark Angels novel "Purging of Kadillus" and a few other places. They were also usable in Battlefleet Gothic.
The Squats have been whitewashed from existing. They actually removed a "squat" character from one of their early novels just to put that point across.

Then they did this with another novel from the same timeframe:

About the book

Believe us when we tell you that Space Marine is quite unlike any other Warhammer 40,000 novel you’ve ever read.

First published in 1993 – though completed some years earlier – at a time when the background to the Warhammer 40,000 universe was still in a state of flux and not yet fully coalesced, the book follows three young Imperial Fist recruits from their formative years in the underhive gangs of Necromunda through to fighting as part of the First Company within the bowels (literally!) of a Tyranid bioship.

Not only will you find squats in this novel –Tzeentch-worshiping squats at that – but also Space Marines controlling Titans, Space Marines with lasguns, the Pain Glove and more than a small amount of toilet humour. Oh, and a Zoat. How could we forget the Zoat?

Although the temptation was great to rewrite significant portions of this book to make it conform to current background, as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable. It also serves as a shining example of what can happen when a respected genre author at the height of his powers is let loose on an established shared universe.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Here is the letter. It was (if I remember correctly) posted from his official account on the Fanatic forums when GW still had official forums.

Thanks for that. What he says is...
"Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homeworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet."
Was that ever followed through on in a GW publication or does it remain simply something Jervis said they'd decided but not done.

I agree that squats are currently still background, but it sounds like GW never took the time to officially write them out (just dropped them) and now they've been officially returned in the background.

Squats don't exist. They are a dead abhuman strain. They are listed alongside catpeople, fishpeople, and several other abhuman strains which we have never seen nor ever will since they are part of "forty-three extinct strains".

The Demiurg are not the same thing as Squats, as I've said before. Demiurg are physically similar, but they are not abhumans. They are a Xenos species which are dimunitive craftsmen who live in a very clan oriented society and wander the stars in massive ships.