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Edited by Manchu

paidinfull wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Weaken Resolve isn't a set value. INAT isn't official.

What's your point?

Do you have a specific instance where an ability makes a unit's LD value a set value?

No, so lets move this back to Ballistic Skill.

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify
a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any
additions or subtractions,and finally apply any set values.

Setting you to BS1 is not a reduction - it's a Set Value. A reduction would be a subtraction.
The fact that the set value is lower or higher is irrelevant.

rigeld2 wrote:

paidinfull wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Weaken Resolve isn't a set value. INAT isn't official.

What's your point?

Do you have a specific instance where an ability makes a unit's LD value a set value?

No, so lets move this back to Ballistic Skill.

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify
a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any
additions or subtractions,and finally apply any set values.

Setting you to BS1 is not a reduction - it's a Set Value. A reduction would be a subtraction.
The fact that the set value is lower or higher is irrelevant.

Except the FAQ states that the codex specific SET VALUE takes priority.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
The RAW is quite clear

Yes it is.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).

Then it can not hit.

It absolutely is. Dont try to take the stance that a codex or FAQ cannot override the BRB. We all know that is not true.

When the vehicle fires the missile as a snapshot, it fires at BS5 per FAQ.

Is HTH a Snap Shot. Yes.

Then it fires at BS5

Unless you missed it, snap shots at flyers are resolved at BS1, not 5.

"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures." is from an FAQ

And you missed the FAQ that states the missile is BS5.

This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5

This tells us the model is assumed to be BS5 for the Seeker missile shot (Even if shaken or stunned).

Set values are applied after everything else.

So:
Starting BS 5' No positive or negative modifiers, Finnaly a set value of 1 when firing at Flyers because of snapshot.

Starts with BS5. Ends with a set value of 1

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Except the FAQ states that the codex specific SET VALUE takes priority.

You mean this?

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

By the literal rules, Shaken and Stunned don't reduce your Ballistic Skill either, so the examples are incorrect.
An example that would reduce is Paroxysm (Tyranid power - states that it reduces the BS and WS to 1)

rigeld2 wrote:

Setting you to BS1 is not a reduction - it's a Set Value. A reduction would be a subtraction.
The fact that the set value is lower or higher is irrelevant.

I've already disproved this point.

Let's start over. Again.

Is Snap Shot reducing the Ballistic Skill? You say No, it's setting it to a "set value".
Unfortunately for you, GW says "Yes".

Again, that's not *me* that's GW.

Where does GW say that? In the Tau FAQ.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example)

"Wait!" you say "It's only talking about Shaken & Stunned! Not Snap Shot or Hard to Hit!"

Actually, it isn't. When we look up the rules for Shaken and Stunned we discover that all they do in fact is make a vehicle "fire only Snap Shots".
Per this FAQ it quite clearly is saying that when you are firing a Snap Shot you have had your Ballistic Skill reduced to 1.

I'm sorry you and yours do not want to admit you are wrong, but you have absolutely no ground to stand on.

The Ballistic Skill of the vehicle was 3 and has been set to 1. 1 is less than 3, ergo the ballistic skill has been *reduced*. However it got there, through negative modifiers, complex calculus or freaking ninjas it doesn't matter. The value has been reduced.

paidinfull wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Setting you to BS1 is not a reduction - it's a Set Value. A reduction would be a subtraction.
The fact that the set value is lower or higher is irrelevant.

I've already disproved this point.

Let's start over. Again.

Is Snap Shot reducing the Ballistic Skill? You say No, it's setting it to a "set value".
Unfortunately for you, GW says "Yes".

Again, that's not *me* that's GW.

Where does GW say that? In the Tau FAQ.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example)

"Wait!" you say "It's only talking about Shaken & Stunned! Not Snap Shot or Hard to Hit!"

Actually, it is. When we look up the rules for Shaken and Stunned we discover that all they do in fact is make a vehicle "fire only Snap Shots".
Per this FAQ it quite clearly is saying that when you are firing a Snap Shot you have had your Ballistic Skill reduced to 1.

I'm sorry you and yours do not want to admit you are wrong, but you have absolutely no ground to stand on.

The Ballistic Skill of the vehicle was 3 and has been set to 1. 1 is less than 3, ergo the ballistic skill has been *reduced*. However it got there, through negative modifiers, complex calculus or freaking ninjas it doesn't matter. The value has been reduced.

Cite the rule that shows Snap Shots are a reduction. You've shown an incorrect example. The best you could use that for would be intent. How it got there absolutely matters as GW tells us it does in the multiple modifiers section.

edit: I'll even post the Snap Shot rule here for you.

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots
rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is
counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

I don't see the word "reduce" in there anywhere.

A set value can increase or reduce a statistic, that's just how the English language works.

Banshee masks increase the initiative stat to 10, even though it is a set modifier.

An increase or decrease, as far as multiple modifiers are concerned, is a +1 or -1 to your characteristic.

Snapshots are not an increase or decrease of +1 or -1 to the stat, they are a set value of BS 1

rigeld2 wrote:

Cite the rule that shows Snap Shots are a reduction. You've shown an incorrect example. The best you could use that for would be intent. How it got there absolutely matters as GW tells us it does in the multiple modifiers section.

I have not shown an incorrect example. That is the FAQ and very much what GW has outlined. There is no intent, it's RAW.
When you are shaken/stunned you can only fire Snap Shots, that FAQ clearly equates "count as", "set value", etc. as reducing the BS to 1.
I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's a fact.

Even in your Tyranid example it supports my point. It's setting it to a set value of 1. The fact that it is explicitly saying "reduces" is irrelevant because the simple fact that the current number is less than the original is evidence enough that it has been "reduced".

 DeathReaper wrote:
A set value can increase or reduce a statistic, that's just how the English language works.

Not true. Setting a value doesn't require math. Increasing or reducing it does.

 DeathReaper wrote:
A set value can increase or reduce a statistic, that's just how the English language works

Banshee masks increase the initiative stat to 10, even though it is a set modifier.

An increase or decrease, as far as multiple modifiers are concerned, is a +1 or -1 to your characteristic.

Thank you.
As you can see rigeld you're alone in your assertion.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Snapshots are not an increase or decrease of +1 or -1 to the stat, they are a set value of BS 1

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here since the above is exactly what I've been saying and this seems to conflict with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
A set value can increase or reduce a statistic, that's just how the English language works.

Not true. Setting a value doesn't require math. Increasing or reducing it does.

It's a point of comparison.

When you set a value from one value to a different one. You are either reducing it or increasing it.
That's a fact.

paidinfull wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Cite the rule that shows Snap Shots are a reduction. You've shown an incorrect example. The best you could use that for would be intent. How it got there absolutely matters as GW tells us it does in the multiple modifiers section.

I have not shown an incorrect example. That is the FAQ and very much what GW has outlined. There is no intent, it's RAW.
When you are shaken/stunned you can only fire Snap Shots, that FAQ clearly equates "count as", "set value", etc. as reducing the BS to 1.
I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's a fact.

Even in your Tyranid example it supports my point. It's setting it to a set value of 1. The fact that it is explicitly saying "reduces" is irrelevant because the simple fact that the current number is less than the original is evidence enough that it has been "reduced".

You have - GW used an incorrect example.
And the Tyranid example does not support your point - Snap Shots do not say that your BS is reduced to 1, it says that it's set to 1. Multiple Modifiers tells us there's a difference.
If a set modifier was a reduction (or addition) there would be no reason to have a "set modifier" in the order for multiple modifiers.

rigeld2 wrote:

paidinfull wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Cite the rule that shows Snap Shots are a reduction. You've shown an incorrect example. The best you could use that for would be intent. How it got there absolutely matters as GW tells us it does in the multiple modifiers section.

I have not shown an incorrect example. That is the FAQ and very much what GW has outlined. There is no intent, it's RAW.
When you are shaken/stunned you can only fire Snap Shots, that FAQ clearly equates "count as", "set value", etc. as reducing the BS to 1.
I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's a fact.

Even in your Tyranid example it supports my point. It's setting it to a set value of 1. The fact that it is explicitly saying "reduces" is irrelevant because the simple fact that the current number is less than the original is evidence enough that it has been "reduced".

You have - GW used an incorrect example.
And the Tyranid example does not support your point - Snap Shots do not say that your BS is reduced to 1, it says that it's set to 1. Multiple Modifiers tells us there's a difference.
If a set modifier was a reduction (or addition) there would be no reason to have a "set modifier" in the order for multiple modifiers.

Whether or not you "feel" they used an incorrect example, that is what they did.
In doing so, they very clearly have made the assertion that Snap Shots "reduce ballistic skill".

You can argue semantics about reduce versus set or resolve versus actual all you want. The only thing that matters is the FAQ and thereby the RAW support what I'm saying, not what you're saying. So... you're wrong.

Edit: Multiple Modifiers in this case isn't pertinent. Whether one modifier or multiple. The bottom line is that the original value has been reduced.
Come on man. This is getting absurd. It's like asserting that 2 is not less than 4 because some magical thing set it to 2.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
A set value can increase or reduce a statistic, that's just how the English language works.

Not true. Setting a value doesn't require math. Increasing or reducing it does.

I was saying that a set value of 1 has reduced a stat that starts at 4, but that is the English definition and not the definition of Multiple modifiers in the BRB on P.2.

In plain English going from BS 4 to something saying you have a BS of 1 is a reduction (But not a subtraction as defined by the BRB).

In the BRB that is what they call a set modifier.

In the BRB a +1 BS is what they call an addition.

paidinfull wrote:
In doing so, they very clearly have made the assertion that Snap Shots "reduce ballistic skill".

Reduction, yes. (As far as the English language is concerned).

Subtraction as noted on P.2 Multiple modifiers, No.

It is a Set value according to the BRB, as nothing in Multiple modifiers says anything about a reduce, just subtract.

 DeathReaper wrote:
[

paidinfull wrote:
In doing so, they very clearly have made the assertion that Snap Shots "reduce ballistic skill".

Reduction, yes.

Subtraction as noted on P.2 Multiple modifiers, No.

It is a Set value according to the BRB, as nothing in Multiple modifiers says anything about a reduce, just subtract.

We're on the same page and it seems you're on board with what I'm saying now.

Since it's a "reduction", that qualifies it for the FAQ.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example)

When Snap Shot sets the vehicle's BS to 1 is it reducing it? According to you, myself and the FAQ: Yes.

So since the vehicle is reduced to ballistic skill 1 by Snap Shot "do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? A: Ballistic Skill 5."

No, as reduction in the English language means that it is not as high as it was before.

In the 40k rules Snapshots are a Set value, not a reduction.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, as reduction in the English language means that it is not as high as it was before.

In the 40k rules Snapshots are a Set value, not a reduction.

I am sorry to inform you that are wrong.
I've pointed this out before but I'll do so again.

Is Snap Shot reducing the Ballistic Skill? You say No, it's setting it to a "set value".
Unfortunately for you, GW says "Yes".

Again, that's not *me* that's GW.

Where does GW say that? In the Tau FAQ.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example)

"Wait!" you say "It's only talking about Shaken & Stunned! Not Snap Shot or Hard to Hit!"

Actually, it isn't. When we look up the rules for Shaken and Stunned we discover that all they do in fact is make a vehicle "fire only Snap Shots".
Per this FAQ it quite clearly is saying that when you are firing a Snap Shot you have had your Ballistic Skill reduced to 1

You continue to refer to pg2 for Multiple Modifiers
Let's look at what it says there.

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

Okay how does this work in our case?

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic,

Okay we do. We have the Seeker Missile rule and the Snap Shot rule making it subjective to this.

first apply any multipliers,

No multipliers, so let's skip this.

then apply any additions or subtractions,

No additions or subtractions here either so let's skip this (remember "assumed BS5" ) so let's skip this too

and finally apply any set values.

Okay! Now we have two set values. BS1 from Snap Shot and BS5 from the Codex
Which takes precedence?
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules." p7
Okay, so the Markerlight rule (specific) overrides the basic rule(Snap Shot). That's one instance.

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rules printed in the codex always take precedence. "
Okay, so here's a second instance telling us Codex > BRB.

So what order do we apply the set values? Well according to p7 we apply the basic rule from the BRB Snap Shot, making the BS1, and next we apply the BS5 of the Seeker Missile (and FAQ) to override that per page 7.

Do you see it now? I've gone through tons of different examples. Hopefully one of those gets through.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, as reduction in the English language means that it is not as high as it was before.

In the 40k rules Snapshots are a Set value, not a reduction.

Well, that's not what the FAQ says. And, what's that you say? It's official and written by GW themselves? And they say a snap shot REDUCES your BS to 1. Wow, they do know their own rules don't they?!!

It's settled, as far as I'm concerned. Resolving a shot as snap fire reduces your ballistic skill to 1. "Reduce" is not a defined game turn, so we must use the definition of the word in english. The tau FAQ indicates that in situations where a vehicle's BS is reduced to 1, they still fire seeker missiles at BS 5. This would not be the RAW if the FAQ did not exist, but it does.

If a vehicle is shaken or stunned, it is reduced to bs1 for that turn, if you are shooting at a flyer it is a set value, as if you choose not to shoot at the flyer, its your normal BS. Thats why HTH is a set value, and thats why being shaken or stunned is a reduction

MarkyMark wrote:
If a vehicle is shaken or stunned, it is reduced to bs1 for that turn, if you are shooting at a flyer it is a set value, as if you choose not to shoot at the flyer, its your normal BS. Thats why HTH is a set value, and thats why being shaken or stunned is a reduction

dont really see where you're getting this fact from.

Thinking about it, the most suitable comparsion to this would b power of the machine spirit right?, allows you to fire a extra weapon at your full BS, and guess what you cant use your full BS to fire at a flyer....

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, as reduction in the English language means that it is not as high as it was before.

In the 40k rules Snapshots are a Set value, not a reduction.

Well, that's not what the FAQ says. And, what's that you say? It's official and written by GW themselves? And they say a snap shot REDUCES your BS to 1. Wow, they do know their own rules don't they?!!

No, you are incorrect. The question is not GW saying ANYTHING. The questions in FAQ are posed by the general public.

The answer, is what GW says.

MarkyMark wrote:
If a vehicle is shaken or stunned, it is reduced to bs1 for that turn, if you are shooting at a flyer it is a set value, as if you choose not to shoot at the flyer, its your normal BS. Thats why HTH is a set value, and thats why being shaken or stunned is a reduction

So what's the difference between a stunned vehicle reducing its BS to one for that turn *because it has to fire snap shots* and a vehicle firing at a flyer that has its BS reduced to 1 *because it has to fire snap shots*?

HTH states only snap shots can hit flyers, FAQ confirms snap shots are a reduction in BS via the examples.

so GW doesn't write the question in the easiest and most commonly phrased way? They don't even proofread it?

MarkyMark wrote:
If a vehicle is shaken or stunned, it is reduced to bs1 for that turn, if you are shooting at a flyer it is a set value, as if you choose not to shoot at the flyer, its your normal BS. Thats why HTH is a set value, and thats why being shaken or stunned is a reduction

Come. On.
You are completely wrong and I've illustrated it multiple times. Simply scroll up and read my last post to Reaper.

Look at the BRB. Shaken/Stunned is effectively Snap Shot. You could effectively write the FAQ as follows:

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because of Snap Shot, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?

MarkyMark wrote:
If a vehicle is shaken or stunned, it is reduced to bs1 for that turn, if you are shooting at a flyer it is a set value, as if you choose not to shoot at the flyer, its your normal BS. Thats why HTH is a set value, and thats why being shaken or stunned is a reduction

Where is that in the rules?

Where does ot say that the snap shot from hard to hit works differently?

Please don't underline the word resolved unless you have an argument for what resolved means (not a description of opinion, an argument with evidence)

40k-noob wrote:

Mega_Nob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, as reduction in the English language means that it is not as high as it was before.

In the 40k rules Snapshots are a Set value, not a reduction.

Well, that's not what the FAQ says. And, what's that you say? It's official and written by GW themselves? And they say a snap shot REDUCES your BS to 1. Wow, they do know their own rules don't they?!!

No, you are incorrect. The question is not GW saying ANYTHING. The questions in FAQ are posed by the general public.

The answer, is what GW says.

And GW says it fires @BS5 when answering the general public in the FAQ.

Hard to Hit = Snap Shot
Stunned = Snap Shot
Shaken = Snap Shot
Snap Shot = Reduced Ballistic Skill to 1
Seeker Missile FAQ Overrides that.

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

So you see... GW has already said how it works.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
so GW doesn't write the question in the easiest and most commonly phrased way? They don't even proofread it?

I doubt it, but I cannot say for sure. For expediency sake, I am willing to be that the pick the simpliest version of a question and take that and post it to the FAQ.

Never the less it wouldn't matter if they edited the question or not. A FAQ by its very nature is what others ask of GW and the answer is what GW says in response.

So those point at the question as somehow being a official position that GW holds is completely without merit.

The answer is a different matter.