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I wasn't justifying the price by assuming it predicted future stretch goals. I was simply suggesting it as a probable reason. It's a poor reason because I can't really see any other reason.

$60 for an RPG sourcebook is on the high end of par these days.
$65 for three miniatures worth ~$40 is unreasonable.

Linkdead wrote:
In my opinion they have programmed in the extra cost of future stretch goals into the pledge prices.

If that's the case, then man...seems a bit disingenuous to me.

Like I said before: all I ever look for in these is a nice "sweet spot" pledge level that includes all the KS exclusive pieces. This just doesn't have it without getting redundant (two copies of the books) and including something that I simply have no interest in (that burlap sack).

I'm probably being overly picky, but man. It's not rubbing me the right way is all.

I put in a $60 pledge to reserve a Miss Terious mini, but honestly I only did it because I know I can back out later if I change my mind. I wanted to pick up the base rulebook just to read through the background, but at $60 I'm not so sure. Then again, I've wasted way more than that on stupid purchases from GW.

The 125$ Living room package doesnt seem out of line at all.
Both books bound into a single hardcover book, a special fate deck, and then both the softcover books as well.

The Dining room package is a little off, but not too much when you consider what people pay for nightmare edition models, and this model will likely go for stupid amounts on ebay.

 cincydooley wrote:
I'll reiterate how disappointed I am that I can't get the limited Fate Deck and SE Miniature for any cheaper than $225.

Yikes.

Yeah, I love Wyrd's products, but the lack of flexibility and mutually exclusive lower levels has thrown me off. I'll be putting down for a rulebook combo, but am not really happy with the lack of add-ons/general inflexibility of what they have to offer. I'll probably add on to that later, but for now, I'm kind of deflated-- not annoyed, but disappointed, when I was really enthused about this...

However, the video was interestingly done- definitely encouraging.

So, there is an update up and... it's for backers only. Heh, that's a new one.

A little birdie whispered in my ear that the update is;

November 28th - over 50% of funding goal

Hi everyone!

Day One is coming to a close, so it's time for the Daily Update. First off - Thanks to everyone for your awesome support!

Next is a quick note on Stretch Goals. Stretch goals are in the works, but we won't start releasing them until Friday (11/30) at 5:00 p.m. PST, when our "Miss Terious Early Bird" period ends.

Finally, a housekeeping note - we'll be doing one update every day around 4-5 p.m. PST, so if the updates get to be too much, go ahead and unsubscribe and check in on us at your leisure. It's going to be an action packed Kickstarter though, so don't fall behind!

Until Tomorrow!

So... uh, till Friday then? Okay...

I don't know that a hobby Kickstarter has ever given me such about taste in my mouth at the outset like this one is.

While I'm pleasantly surprised to see that this project has reached its goal in less than a day, the first update telling us that stretch goals will not be added until Friday seems a bit counter-productive and may hurt the project.

Here's hoping that the $125 pledge is given a lot of free stuff, I'm having a somewhat hard time justifying this one.

Looks like this one is a miss for me. In my group they are starting to talk about an intervention with my kickstartery!

But this just isn't doing it for me for value for money.

Any Backer want to spill beans on newest & first update?

Hopefully this 'backers- only' isn't a trend. It's hard to get hyped up on product, if you can't see any news.

I am hoping what they add to the kickstarter makes it more worthwhile to take for each different pledge level.

I can't figure out the levels though. Should have been one to get the Hardback version of the rules + Fate Deck + some of the mini's. Getting a doubled up set of rules makes no sense because a lot of people wouldn't want two copies, and the only way to get a hardback rulebook plus the miniatures is to go for the $225 level.

Strangeness.

 adhuin wrote:
Any Backer want to spill beans on newest & first update?

Hopefully this 'backers- only' isn't a trend. It's hard to get hyped up on product, if you can't see any news.

This is the (only) update on the ks page, hope that's what you mean:

November 28th - over 50% of funding goal

Hi everyone!

Day One is coming to a close, so it's time for the Daily Update. First off - Thanks to everyone for your awesome support!

Next is a quick note on Stretch Goals. Stretch goals are in the works, but we won't start releasing them until Friday (11/30) at 5:00 p.m. PST, when our "Miss Terious Early Bird" period ends.

Finally, a housekeeping note - we'll be doing one update every day around 4-5 p.m. PST, so if the updates get to be too much, go ahead and unsubscribe and check in on us at your leisure. It's going to be an action packed Kickstarter though, so don't fall behind!

Until Tomorrow!

 Fenriswulf wrote:
I can't figure out the levels though. Should have been one to get the Hardback version of the rules + Fate Deck + some of the mini's. Getting a doubled up set of rules makes no sense because a lot of people wouldn't want two copies, and the only way to get a hardback rulebook plus the miniatures is to go for the $225 level.

Strangeness.

While I understand the thought of being "forced" to have two sets of the rule for the deck, I thought their levels made perfect sense.

Living Room because you sit on coaches and comfy chairs to RPG in a laid back setting, not around a grid table....
Dining Room because you do sit around a table and utilize miniatures in your RPG session...
Game Room because you combine it both in the sense that it's all very important to you...

Maybe I just got it because I am (was) a Living Room RPGer who also plays Malifaux and other TT games.

Was sort of interested in this until I saw pledge level needed for the special edition sculpt. Looking through other successful gaming Kickstarters, this seems to be a step backwards.

Don't think I'd get much RPGaming out of it, but I would've loved a $10,- pdf for the fluff.

Guess I'll have to wait for the .. um .. internet to offer one

But for a RPG-Kickstarter it seems very scarce. Others such as Numenera had all kind a good things, character creation Apps, Pdfs, Exclusive signed Hardbacks, adventures, accessories, etc..., all pretty much mixable as you'd like to have it. Even retailer bundles for stores, etc.. .

The whole things seems like a very ... 1980s approach to RPGs.

Dainty Twerp wrote:
While I understand the thought of being "forced" to have two sets of the rule for the deck, I thought their levels made perfect sense.

Living Room because you sit on coaches and comfy chairs to RPG in a laid back setting, not around a grid table....
Dining Room because you do sit around a table and utilize miniatures in your RPG session...
Game Room because you combine it both in the sense that it's all very important to you...

Maybe I just got it because I am (was) a Living Room RPGer who also plays Malifaux and other TT games.

What about those of us who play at a games room table and want a hardback version of the rules, a fatedeck, and perhaps the limited edition sculpt and one or two other miniatures without having to shell out $225 to get it? I am not seeing why those who use a Dining Room get the softcover option over the hardcover one. Surely they can do a minimised Games Room one where you can get the above. Or perhaps a trade back scheme of some sort.

Not very sure it's worth it either, but I signed up nonetheless, but I;m still doubting to be honest, might very well be that I decide to back out after some thought, it seems to be somewhat lacklustre indeed compared to some other kickstarters around.

On the other hand, it is a Miss terious mini which will be able to tie my Ortega's and Lady Justice together quite nicely, dang it, choices. BUt I do agree, it's not the best kickstarter so far, maybe it'll pick up during it's run, if not, I might very well bow out before it ends aswell.

Sadly folks, we're not going to see any update on stretch goals, though we might see updates about ala carte stuff, until Friday at like 1:00 AM GMT... I'm sure that the backers would have no problem posting any backer only updates (which I believe is a kickstarter thing and not a Wyrd thing, because I couldn't see some updates on my phone for EFT because I wasn't logged in as my account that backed it.

On that note:
It might be a good time to pimp the latest Dakka Painting Challenge, where you can snag some cool digs and even a Miss Terious or Santana Ortega which would make nice stand in models for a Through the Breach game

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/489513.page

Alf, none of our updates were backers only except the one to get Backer Avatars and the one with the link to download the Backers PDF Rules.

It also doesn't default to 'Backers Only' when you make an update.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Alf, none of our updates were backers only except the one to get Backer Avatars and the one with the link to download the Backers PDF Rules.

It also doesn't default to 'Backers Only' when you make an update.

Interesting, maybe the internet just hates me

Also have pledge for this one so I can get the updates but it is not exciting at all. Was hoping for lower pledges levels and for options you could add to that pledge.

After checking out what the maifaux books sell for online in the UK (for a guestimate on what this could eventually go for) I've decided to pull out as I was really just interested in this for the background

It looks like it will be cheaper to get it retail (& I might not need both books for that either)

If stuff appears later on I might change my mind again, but a single mini just isn't enough to keep me in (if it had been a $20 discount instead that would have been different

You can't compare a mini game and a RPG for pricing. As a teacher and a college student, its clear that printing is EXPENSIVE. You simply cannot buy a 140+ page, color printed book for less than $50. (Most brand new textbooks are $100+ these days; yes that includes your crappy high school textbooks you were using once upon a time.)

Plastic figures we know can be made very cheaply--most of us had 'little green army men' as we grew up. Maybe you were like me a made plastic model kits too. ANd we're aware of the Bones KS.

No, you need to compare RPG books with other books. Eden is doing their Indiegogo book for 50 Euro, Carnivale's was $50, so the book looks about right.

Now the next step, yeah, that's steep.

 drazz wrote:
You can't compare a mini game and a RPG for pricing. As a teacher and a college student, its clear that printing is EXPENSIVE. You simply cannot buy a 140+ page, color printed book for less than $50. (Most brand new textbooks are $100+ these days; yes that includes your crappy high school textbooks you were using once upon a time.)

Plastic figures we know can be made very cheaply--most of us had 'little green army men' as we grew up. Maybe you were like me a made plastic model kits too. ANd we're aware of the Bones KS.

No, you need to compare RPG books with other books. Eden is doing their Indiegogo book for 50 Euro, Carnivale's was $50, so the book looks about right.

Now the next step, yeah, that's steep.

Huh? Where did you get the idea that books are this expensive?

Privateer Press puts out the Prime Mk.II and Primal Mk.ii books, full (in fact, overflowing) color, 248 pages, $29.99, softcover.

Wizards of the Coast's Dungeons and Dragons Players Handbook (4th edition), color, 318 pages, $34.95, hardcover.

Textbooks are expensive because you can compel people to buy them and they have very small overall markets, but mostly the compulsion bit. Books that are sold without the expectation that people will be told to buy them for a class or whatnot, that is, that actually have to appeal to people to choose to buy them, have to be attractive.

Heck, at my elbow is a copy of Astro City Confession*, a trade paper back (that is, a giant softcover comic book), pretty much the most expensive possible form of printing (super high tolerances, high quality paper and intense color every page), and it's 208 pages for $19.95!

And... plastic figures are cheap to produce? Waaa? Cheap once you have the increadibly expensive molds, sure. But the trick is, you know, getting the molds...


*Incidentally, one of the greatest super hero stories ever written.

Oh I know printings not cheap (academic books I use at work are easily £100 or more),

and if the base level had been the hardcover 2 in one then fine the KS might have made sense for me,

but as they're splitting the game into 2 books I may be able to get away with only buying one at (discount) retail for the background (maybe not), and going down that route also means no shipping cost

The other thing you have to do is compare it to other released RPG books.

Wizards of The Coast Player's Guide and Dungeon Master's Guide: 544 pages for both (320 for PHB and 224 for DMG), full-color, hardcover: 34.95 each = 69.90 USD

Paizo's Pathfinder Core Rules: 576 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 49.99 USD

Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms Full Metal Fantasy RPG: 359 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 60.00 USD

White Wolf's New World of Darkness: 224 pages, greyscale, hardcover all information contained for players and GMs = 24.99 USD (add 34.99 for any of the major specifics like Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, etc...)

So Wyrd is giving you 2 full color rulebooks of at least 150 full color pages (if the Malifaux rulebooks are any indication to go by) for 60 dollars. Comparing that to ANY other role playing game system and you're finding yourself very much in the middle of pricing. Release prices of these books are probably going to be comparable to their Malifaux books and WoTC's PHB and DMG (35 bucks).


The other thing that is being brought up is the price of the minis. I agree some of them are a tad expensive for what you're getting, but without seeing the sprues, we're only guessing. Wyrd's new plastics are very similar to GW plastics in feel, look, and workability. Looking at their single sprue plastic models like Mr. Tannen and Mr. Graves, they run 11 dollars a model, but these are single pose with swapable arms (Tannen can swap out a knife for a card, and Graves can have either a left arm with a giant 4x4 fence post, or a fist). So we're being given 2 multi pose models, and a special edition modele, which means they will probably be 1 main sprue with an options sprue, you're looking at I'll say 30 bucks for both of those. I can't find my pricing for the bigger models from GenCon, but I believe Lazarus and the Rail Golem were 30 to 40 bucks for a larger model (about the size of a Warjack and probably close to what Hanna is). Which means you're getting what they put up there.

Most money for models I believe is still mostly wrapped up in the cost for making the molds.


Edit: Ninja'd but my point still stands lol.

I've been openly pining for a Malifaux RPG since the day I first opened the rulebook for the mini's game. I love the setting and background.
Sadly, they've priced me out of this one. I find their levels to be ridiculous.
I'll keep watching it, because I may want to find someone who can get me one of those dolls for my daughter (depending on the cost), but I suspect that's all I'll be getting from this KS.

Color me sad.

Eric

 Alfndrate wrote:
The other thing you have to do is compare it to other released RPG books.

Wizards of The Coast Player's Guide and Dungeon Master's Guide: 544 pages for both (320 for PHB and 224 for DMG), full-color, hardcover: 34.95 each = 69.90 USD

Paizo's Pathfinder Core Rules: 576 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 49.99 USD

Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms Full Metal Fantasy RPG: 359 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 60.00 USD

White Wolf's New World of Darkness: 224 pages, greyscale, hardcover all information contained for players and GMs = 24.99 USD (add 34.99 for any of the major specifics like Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, etc...)

So Wyrd is giving you 2 full color rulebooks of at least 150 full color pages (if the Malifaux rulebooks are any indication to go by) for 60 dollars. Comparing that to ANY other role playing game system and you're finding yourself very much in the middle of pricing. Release prices of these books are probably going to be comparable to their Malifaux books and WoTC's PHB and DMG (35 bucks).

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to illustrate here. As offered, the pledge levels are giving you something comparable to paying full retail on comparable products, or maybe a small discount... with a payment almost a full year in advance.

That's something often forgotten: as my Corporations professor liked to say, "Money today is worth more then Money tomorrow". That's a critical difference between an pre-order and kickstarter: I have a pre-order with Amazon for the new God of War game, have for months now. I haven't been charged a penny, and won't be, until it actually ships. Keeping that money in my pocket gives me something: potential. I can invest that money and produce more money, among other things. So any time you pay ahead of time you're actually paying more then it seems, because you're paying the opportunity costs.

As the pledges exist now, looking only at the base pledge, not the vague promise of "stretch goals" adding value, why would I commit money now, rather then wait til it's released to retail outlets where I can get it at a discount at my leisure? I'm not talking about deep internet retailers, but even simple brick and mortar stores that have periodic sales.

 Alfndrate wrote:
The other thing that is being brought up is the price of the minis. I agree some of them are a tad expensive for what you're getting, but without seeing the sprues, we're only guessing. Wyrd's new plastics are very similar to GW plastics in feel, look, and workability. Looking at their single sprue plastic models like Mr. Tannen and Mr. Graves, they run 11 dollars a model, but these are single pose with swapable arms (Tannen can swap out a knife for a card, and Graves can have either a left arm with a giant 4x4 fence post, or a fist). So we're being given 2 multi pose models, and a special edition modele, which means they will probably be 1 main sprue with an options sprue, you're looking at I'll say 30 bucks for both of those. I can't find my pricing for the bigger models from GenCon, but I believe Lazarus and the Rail Golem were 30 to 40 bucks for a larger model (about the size of a Warjack and probably close to what Hanna is). Which means you're getting what they put up there.

Most money for models I believe is still mostly wrapped up in the cost for making the molds.


Edit: Ninja'd but my point still stands lol.

Again, you're comparing retail products to kickstarter products: comparing like with like, kickstarter with kickstarter, why is Adam Poots giving you such a better deal, when he is literally, a one man company operating out of his home in Brooklyn, compared to Wyrd, which is an established company?

There can't seriously be an argument about quality, since KD, Dreamforge and others are clearly not radically inferior (and, let's be realistic, Wyrd sculpts have their ups and downs, so there is a good chance the comparison will not be to Wyrd's benefit).

I'm not saying that this deal won't eventually be a good one. I'm saying that it's another example of a company banking on the stretch goals to actually make their original offerings good deals.

Just pledged at the $60 level. That seems about right for two rulebooks. Probably will not jump to the $125 level, as others have said, that's a bit steep.

My point about the price of books and the models is that people are complaining about the price of them. Yes, it sucks that there isn't an addons option at the moment (since I'd like the Hannah model AND the fate deck for less than 225, cause I can pick up the minis once they're released, and I don't really care about the wicked doll), but at the same time, I think that after the Bones kickstarter, both companies and backers are banking on stretch goals, I know On the Lamb was banking on their stretch goals for their most recent kickstarter.

As to not pledging now vs buying it once released, there's nothing stopping you. The project is currently going to be funded, you're right there is no incentive for you to pledge at the moment. I'm pledging because I like having cool fate decks for Malifaux, I love RPG games and the fluff of Malifaux, and honestly I'm backing the company because they're currently giving more fun with my hobby than any other established company out there.

Everyone has their reasons for donating. If they open up an addons that allows you to pick up fate decks on the cheap, or Hannah for a decent price, then the 125 becomes that sweet spot with a little addition for the extra you want. I'd personally pay 125 for the 3 rule books, the fate deck, and then add on Hannah, that's currently less than what I've pledged to get what I want.

And since it's currently sitting at 54,494, it's going to start hitting those first few stretch goals with no problems (assuming Wyrd doesn't do something stupid like adjust their goals based on the first 24 hours of pledging).

And my comment on the models was also based on the fact that you're picking up a special edition model which will ONLY be released through this kickstarter (at the moment), so they've got to get people to pick those pledge levels that give Hannah so they can pay the artists, the scupltors, and for the mold. And I'll grant you that there are weird sculpts for Wyrd, but at the same time the plastics have been almost perfect (Hungering Darkness has a big line down his middle). Eric has already stated that they're eating a chunk of cash on the shipping (they're being charged ridiculous amounts that most of the overseas people can attest to on Wyrd's forums), and that there are already considerable discounts on the special edition stuff.

I'm not white knighting for this kickstarter, yes I'm a Henchman, but I agree there are plenty of issues with the kickstarter namely
1) The lack of varied low and high end reward tiers
2) Weird pricing jump on one of the reward tiers
3) Not advertising the 5 dollar tier (get preview access) and the 500+ tier (extras galore)