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I think there is Flyer Phobia, which is an opinion and can be debated but flyers are clearly affecting list building from my observations.

Do you think people should have flyer phobia when creating a list?

If you think flyer phobia is the wrong choice of words will you explain why?

Do I think people should have a phobia, an irrational fear, of flyers and build their lists around it? No.

Do I think people should be aware that flyers exist in 6th edition and have a plan for dealing with them, even if that plan is durable scoring units that can win the objective mission and ignore the few casualties the flyer inflicts? Yes.

 Peregrine wrote:
Do I think people should have a phobia, an irrational fear, of flyers and build their lists around it? No.

Do I think people should be aware that flyers exist in 6th edition and have a plan for dealing with them, even if that plan is durable scoring units that can win the objective mission and ignore the few casualties the flyer inflicts? Yes.

I agree with you 100%, everyone should be aware and have a plan even if it is as simple as being able to handle the punch.

Really I don't see the point of this thread, since it's just stating the obvious. Yes flyers exist. No you shouldn't build your list based on irrational fears. What else is there to say?

I think CKO is both asking what is the balance and opinioning a view the balance is not being maintained at present.

My view is same as Peregrine. In 1850 im taking a quadgun ADL, which can do a range of great tasks, and a RIfleman dread as backup.

Can i handle the flying french bakery? No. But i will shatter their ground forces most likely.

 Peregrine wrote:
Really I don't see the point of this thread,

Like, totally rude dude!

 Peregrine wrote:
since it's just stating the obvious. Yes flyers exist. No you shouldn't build your list based on irrational fears. What else is there to say?

Thats not what I asked, flyer phobia is irrational fear of flyers and I wanted to know why people should not have irrational fears of very powerful units.

Baleflamer helldrakes can single handily win games, why do you not fear them? What durable scoring unit does not have to worry about 2 baleflamers?

Doom scythes and night scythes are spammable how do you deal with them?

I apologize for not making the questions more clear.

 CKO wrote:

Baleflamer helldrakes can single handily win games, why do you not fear them? What durable scoring unit does not have to worry about 2 baleflamers?

Hah.


Only if you're awful and unprepared.

Any good list/player is prepared for flyers, so really this thread is moreso "Why are the unprepared so shocked and shaken by flyers when they get caught unprepared for said flyers?"

I've blown up fliers snap firing than I have with my quad guns or my storm talon. The only armies that will ruin your day are flyer spam lists because they take dedicated anit flyer to deal with

I play Necrons, and don't really worth about flyers. Tesla destructors do the job quite nicely.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 CKO wrote:

Baleflamer helldrakes can single handily win games, why do you not fear them? What durable scoring unit does not have to worry about 2 baleflamers?

Hah.


Only if you're awful and unprepared.

Any good list/player is prepared for flyers, so really this thread is moreso "Why are the unprepared so shocked and shaken by flyers when they get caught unprepared for said flyers?"

Did I sound like I am just outright fearful of flyers? If so I apologize because I am far from it, I want to know why other players feel comfortable when they face flyers. I want them to explain it in a tactical manner.

 CKO wrote:
I wanted to know why people should not have irrational fears of very powerful units.

Because irrational fear by definition means fearing it more than you should.

I use a Contemptor Mortis with Assault Cannons to deal with Flyers.

Nothing says confetti like 12 S6 + 2 S8 shots. Hitting on 2s.

They'll confetting infantry too, much better investment than a ADL for the anti-flyer roll, in my opinion.

Tempted to get one for my 1850 - 2000pt lists. I've found the contemptor is more than enough for 1500.

 Peregrine wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I wanted to know why people should not have irrational fears of very powerful units.

Because irrational fear by definition means fearing it more than you should.

This.

If the actual question is "should players take flyers into account when building their lists?", then the answer, in general, is yes. They're a signficant part of the game now, with some unique and powerful advantages.

Flyers are simply a new part of the game. They're not something to be utterly terrified of, neither are they something to be ignored. Whereas in the old days you could get away with including elements to move, shoot, hit things, pop tanks, and deal with hordes, now you need to add anti-air-capable things to your list to have an effective all-comers list.

Flyers are only overpowered if you look at them in a vacuum space containing only the plastic flyers and only the Codexes that have more trouble dealing with them; in the grand scheme of the entire game, with Aeronautica, flyers aren't particulary overpowered. Baleflamer Heldrakes are a hundred and seventy points, and still have AV 12 and 3 SP; once you start putting forty-point Saber autocannons, 120" range Skyfire Manticore AA rockets, crazily-overarmed Avenger fighters, ridiculously cheap Remora and Hell Blade fighters, and all the other stuff in Aeronautica on the table they get a lot less scary.

Or just play Apocalypse and put a phalanx of Necron Gauss Pylons on the table. 120"/S D/Heavy 3/Skyfire/Interceptor is pretty hard to deal with.

I don't know, though. I think it's possible to ignore fliers with some armies. Fliers, with a few exceptions, tend to be best against mech lists. If you're running a foot list, though, you usually have the models available to absorb the relatively few shots of dakkajets and vendettas and the like.

As a foot guard player myself, my strategy is to double down on the ground game and literally pretend that fliers don't exist. It's been working fine so far for me.

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't know, though. I think it's possible to ignore fliers with some armies. Fliers, with a few exceptions, tend to be best against mech lists. If you're running a foot list, though, you usually have the models available to absorb the relatively few shots of dakkajets and vendettas and the like.

As a foot guard player myself, my strategy is to double down on the ground game and literally pretend that fliers don't exist. It's been working fine so far for me.

Hence the resurgence of the mighty Valkyrie.

(kindof)

One or two fliers is no problem, and so one shouldn't worry about them.

Flyer spam (as far as I can tell) currently has no counter outside of FW besides horde lists (which few armies can do without allies), so there's no point in worrying about them. Worry is only useful if there's something you can do about it.

Crazyterran wrote:
I use a Contemptor Mortis with Assault Cannons to deal with Flyers.

Nothing says confetti like 12 S6 + 2 S8 shots. Hitting on 2s.

They'll confetting infantry too, much better investment than a ADL for the anti-flyer roll, in my opinion.

Tempted to get one for my 1850 - 2000pt lists. I've found the contemptor is more than enough for 1500.

Can we take these to tournaments?

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
I use a Contemptor Mortis with Assault Cannons to deal with Flyers.

Nothing says confetti like 12 S6 + 2 S8 shots. Hitting on 2s.

They'll confetting infantry too, much better investment than a ADL for the anti-flyer roll, in my opinion.

Tempted to get one for my 1850 - 2000pt lists. I've found the contemptor is more than enough for 1500.

Can we take these to tournaments?

I know right, nothing against aurora but alot of people make suggestions about using IA stuff and I am like thats not going to aid me.

Some tournaments allow IA stuff.

Most don't, that i've run into.

My orks don't care too much about fliers. When you're only hitting on 5's anyway, hitting on 6's isn't a big deal.

I dislike the AV 12 flying tanks fliers though. Those things are a PITA to take down sometimes. Planes shouldn't have better armour than a ground APC.

The DE and Ork fliers are av 10/11, and i think that's about right. 12 is a touch much, especially when they get spammed. Sooner or later they'll release an AV 13 or 14 flier for a codex, and that'll just be silly.

 Ascalam wrote:

The DE and Ork fliers are av 10/11, and i think that's about right. 12 is a touch much, especially when they get spammed. Sooner or later they'll release an AV 13 or 14 flier for a codex, and that'll just be silly.

I dont think so, in the future there should be some flying tanks heavily armoured. I hope they dont come out with something crazy like av 13 flyers , what do you usually do about flyers with your orks? Orks can ignore or attack flyers depending on the list, but what do you have in your tac list?

High AV would move slower, or present a larger target, thus not BS1 penalty. Like shooting a WW2 bomber vs fighter.

Tourneys I play dont allow IA.

Lootas LOVE fliers

15-45 S 7 Autocannon shots will generally put at least a couple of HP on anything short of AV 14.

Tankbusters aren't shabby either. 15 rokkits will usually find a mark or two here or there.

I've downed Razorwings and Ork fliers with massed fire from a sluggaboyz unit before, and shootas are even better.

Dakkajets coming in on a Waaagh turn can obliterate a flyer squadron, with luck, through sheer force of firepower.

Sometimes the Big Shootas from my trukk transports have nothing to shoot at, and fliers are fun targets... It takes a lot of shots, but it's do-able..

Really it depends on my list. I don't run a set list as a rule, but almost any ork list can down an AV 10/11 flyer or two without too much effort, and can deal with AV 12 ones reasonably well.

That Avenger Strike Fighter looks stupidly good.
180 points and it shows up with 2 lascannons, 2 autocannons, and an average cannon (S6 AP3 heavy 7!)

I'd be worried about 3 of those as heavy support paired with 3 Valkyries.


-Matt

Is it IOM- Yes

Is it undercosted/overgunned - Yes.

What a shock..

I use nids at the moment and flyers used to scare me, but I've glanced bale dragons to death with termagent fire, just got to get them to face the other way. I've Shot them to death with 2xTL Devourers on both flyrants and Carnifexs, and Impaled them with hefty Hive Guard Impaler cannons, no more jink saves, no more valkyries...
I even think that armies don't nessecarily require flyers, but they are very handy at scaring unprepared opponents Spec when you come against 3 Vendettas or the 2 Baledragon/3 Doom sythe armies...

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Tourneys I play dont allow IA.

How unfortunate. Perhaps you should take your business elsewhere until they start using the standard rules for 40k instead of including house rules that ban units you would like to use?

HawaiiMatt wrote:
That Avenger Strike Fighter looks stupidly good.
180 points and it shows up with 2 lascannons, 2 autocannons, and an average cannon (S6 AP3 heavy 7!)

I'd be worried about 3 of those as heavy support paired with 3 Valkyries.

Now let's look at the drawbacks:

First of all because you can only fire four weapons at a time one of the guns has to snap fire even though you paid full-BS points for it. Taking the upgrade guns is kind of a questionable decision for that cost, you're probably better off taking bombs (which drop as a single weapon) or hellfury missiles (which give you anti-horde when the LCs are weak), or even just leaving those hardpoints empty.

Second, the durability is pretty disappointing. Front AV 12 is nice, but side AV 10 and 2 HP makes it an extremely fragile unit. Your 180 point unit is probably going to be removed in a single shooting phase if your opponent has any AA units, and that's a very big drawback. When you can only expect a single shooting phase that nice firepower starts looking a lot less impressive, and the non-flyer alternatives get more appealing.

Now, is it a unit that's worth taking? Sure, but it's not really all that powerful when you've already got Vendettas.

 Ascalam wrote:
Is it IOM- Yes

Is it undercosted/overgunned - Yes.

What a shock..

Is it FW - Yes.

Is it overcosted/undergunned and highly overrated - Yes.

What a shock..

 Peregrine wrote:

How unfortunate. Perhaps you should take your business elsewhere until they start using the standard rules for 40k instead of including house rules that ban units you would like to use?

How rude?

Grand tournaments, major tournaments what ever you want to call them do not allow forge world. You should not make a scene at your local gaming store just because forge world is not allowed. If there is a rule dispute at a tournament with a forge world model you cant look to GW for an faq, the decision that the store owner makes will make 1 of his 2 customers unhappy, so why open up that can of worms?

Your analysis on that forge world flyer is good, also major payne did a great job explaning how he deals with flyers with his nids, same can be said for ascalam and his orks. I wonder what the best options for some of the other armies are?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Tourneys I play dont allow IA.

How unfortunate. Perhaps you should take your business elsewhere until they start using the standard rules for 40k instead of including house rules that ban units you would like to use?


.

IA aren't the standard rules for 40K. They are an expansion that is usable with the standard rules for 40K. That argument has happened so many times that it doesn't really need to be rehashed though. Neither side will budge, so there's not much point arguing it.

Personally i quite like the IA units as a whole. Most tournaments don't use IA (that i've run into anyway) because either the venue doesn't have a supply of the rather expensive books, or they don't assume that everyone attending does. I use the ork ones at home a fair bit, but that doesn't mean i'll pitch a hissy-fit and refuse tom play at my FLGS if they won't let me field them

Boycotting a FLGS because they don't allow IA units is your perogative, but if we all did that there would be precious few FLGS's that still supported 40k, as 99% of the players i've run into are either not into IA units, or prefer not to have them crop up at tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your analysis on that forge world flyer is good, also major payne did a great job explaning how he deals with flyers with his nids, same can be said for ascalam and his orks. I wonder what the best options for some of the other armies are?

DE Voidravens are passable air-to-air hunters, but i'd rather use them on ground targets as a whole. The void-lance is just a lascannon against AV 12, but against AV 14 it's fun

DE aren't that hot at dealing with fliers beside that. Disintegrators bounce off most fliers, and DL aren't that hot (and only get the one shot.. you'd need a whole army's DL's firing to have much effect..).

Blasterborn can manage.

I've had my best luck with thrown haywires from wyches.

 Ascalam wrote:
IA aren't the standard rules for 40K.

Yes they are. GW has made it explicit that FW rules are part of standard 40k. It's very simple:

People who can read and want to play the standard game will see the very clear statement that FW is part of the game and allow FW units just like they allow Ork units.

People who can read and want to play a different game will see the very clear statement that FW is part of the game and add a house rule that FW units are banned, just like they include a house rule that double FOC is banned/limit allies to fluffy combinations/etc.

People who can't stand the thought of admitting that their house rule is a house rule will continue to invent all sorts of desperate rationalizations for how the plain and simple "it's part of the game" doesn't really mean that they're part of the game, therefore their house rule isn't a house rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CKO wrote:
You should not make a scene at your local gaming store just because forge world is not allowed.

I'm not going to make a scene, I'm simply not going to participate in any event that doesn't allow FW units (even if I wouldn't be playing with mine for whatever reason), and I'm not going to play against anyone who refuses to allow them.

If there is a rule dispute at a tournament with a forge world model you cant look to GW for an faq, the decision that the store owner makes will make 1 of his 2 customers unhappy, so why open up that can of worms?

Then you consult the appropriate FW FAQ.

And it's not like GW's FAQs cover every possible situation where there could be a rule dispute, so "making a customer unhappy" is just the risk you take by running a tournament.