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You deal with a beatstick like him like you should any close-combat powerhouse: pout a lot of firepower in to him. Don't waste lascannons if you don't need to, but force a lot of saving rolls. He will start to lose rolls.

Kharn has amazing Deny the witch, so psyker powers are not the way to counter him unless you have lots nd lots of casters.

As for Wraithlord, I only faced them once and Kharn tore through two in a single game. It helped that I had shaved a wound from each with lascannons, but he is at S7 on the charge now (and could get stronger with the right boons of chaos). Hitting on 2's with rerolls, odds are he will put three unsavable wouns on a Lord even wounding on a 5+!

Khârn is immune to Force Weapon-induced ID, has 2D6 armour pen and 5 attacks. Bjorn, a GKGM or a Lone Wolf won't work very well at all.

Sorry, where's the 2D6 come from?

EDIT: Also, my first choice is to just smile and roll for MSS, but that doesn't really work with SW

azazel the cat wrote:But he's not as scary in CC as Bjorn the Unstoppable Murder Machine.

What?!? On average, he destroys Bjorn in one round of combat before he gets to strike, regardless of the charge.

Sephyr wrote:Hitting on 2's with rerolls, odds are he will put three unsavable wouns on a Lord even wounding on a 5+!

2.26 on average.

 azazel the cat wrote:
Sorry, where's the 2D6 come from?

Gorechild's Armourbane.

I'm sure he has as much trouble with THSS as most things do... Beyond that, you could always block him or feed him crap as I suggested before or use some sort of ally with a billion wounds and bunch of attacks and feel secure in the knowledge that he is a marine.

Armourbane, eh? Must've missed that. It does change things from being a complete blowout, but Bjorn still takes this one. Kharn is S5 so on average rolls he's not cracking Bjorn's shell, and keep in mind that Bjorn has both the Venerable special rule, and a 5++ save on any glancing or penetrating hit. So I'd say that mathematically, Bjorn has the upper hand.

Kharn:
5 attacks, 2+ to hit
4.17 hits, re-roll the missed
5.00 hits
Roll for armour pen, 42% chance of at least a glance
2.1 glances or better
Bjorn rolls for his 5++ save
1.39 glances or better
Bjorn can now use Venerable rule if he needs to.

Bjorn:
4 attacks, 5+ to hit
1.33 hits, wound on a 2+
1.11 wounds, Kharn gets his 5++ save
0.74 wounds

Kharn gets crushed from ID basically 3/4 of the time. That jumps to 93% of the time if Bjorn gets the charge.

I thought gorechild made kharn str 6 normally and str 7 on the charge ?

I think it does.

What is Bjorns av? I have had Kharn charge a Defiler and rip it to shreds with no issue at all.


Basically - avoid CC. Kharn will kill you the majority of the time (certain instances exluded). i woudl say 90% of the itme your best bet is to foce as many shooting saves as possible. he only has a 3+/5++ so nothing amazing, plus he's only T4.

 azazel the cat wrote:
Armourbane, eh? Must've missed that. It does change things from being a complete blowout, but Bjorn still takes this one. Kharn is S5 so on average rolls he's not cracking Bjorn's shell, and keep in mind that Bjorn has both the Venerable special rule, and a 5++ save on any glancing or penetrating hit. So I'd say that mathematically, Bjorn has the upper hand.

Kharn:
5 attacks, 2+ to hit
4.17 hits, re-roll the missed
5.00 hits
Roll for armour pen, 42% chance of at least a glance
2.1 glances or better
Bjorn rolls for his 5++ save
1.39 glances or better
Bjorn can now use Venerable rule if he needs to.

Bjorn:
4 attacks, 5+ to hit
1.33 hits, wound on a 2+
1.11 wounds, Kharn gets his 5++ save
0.74 wounds

Kharn gets crushed from ID basically 3/4 of the time. That jumps to 93% of the time if Bjorn gets the charge.

You have both rules and math wrong here.

Kharn is S6, not S5, and he has counter charge.

So if he charges he has 7 attacks at S7, with re-rolls to hit and Armourbane. So that's 6.81 hits, so after his 5++ that's 3.28 HP gone, and that's a dead Bjorn, who doesn't get to strike.

If Bjorn charges Kharn has 6 attacks at S6 with re-rolls to hit and Armourbane. That's 5.83 hits, so after his 5++ that's 2.27 HP gone, 1.62 pens as part of that with a 50% chance of stopping Kharn getting squished in return (weapon destroyed or explosion, 50% because of AP2). If he explodes obviously he doesn't get to attack. If he loses his DCCW, then he is down an attack and doesn't stop Kharn's armour, and is reduced to S7 so no instant death.

So no, Bjorn does not rip up Kharn as you have stated, and is definitely not a good counter, with a pretty poor chance of ever killing him.

How are you getting to Str 7 with 7 attacks? Both stats are 5 at base.

Rage adds +2A, taking him from a A5 to A7 when he charges.

I'm not sure on the Str, as I don't have my book and am not familiar with Kharn.

Kharn is most definitely has Str.7 (5 base, +1 for gorechild, +1 for furious charge) and 7 attacks (4 base, +1 for BP, +2 for rage) on the charge.

For the person who suggested TH/SS termies remember that kharn is AP2 with a lot of attacks and, more importantly, when attached with berserkers, will have a litteral bucket load of WS5 Str.5 attacks to make you roll for. Indeed, my berserkers have kill far more hammer-terminators then Kharn ever has.

As I posted previously, they key to kill kharn and his unit is to feed them a throwaway unit then blast them the next turn while they are in the open. Kharn is very squishy at T4 and a 5++ and units he's with like berserkers don't take fire very well either.

Isn't the Gorechild str increase already represented in his stat line since its his starting wargear? I thought all the 6th Ed. codex are being written this way. I also think there is a reminder somwhere in the book about it. Not just for bikes.

How would a dreadknight fare vs kharn?

The codex doesn't say that it's included in his profile, so the logical conclusion would be that he's S6 before FC.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
How would a dreadknight fare vs kharn?

Kharn strikes first and hard enough to potentially kill the knight before he strikes. If he survives he can strike back and kill Kharn with str10. dreadknights are characters, so kharn has to challenge, but at the same time, if kharn is riding with a chump champion he could be fed to the DK.

buddha wrote:Kharn is most definitely has Str.7 (5 base, +1 for gorechild, +1 for furious charge) and 7 attacks (4 base, +1 for BP, +2 for rage) on the charge.

Yeah, Gorechild's +1 to Str should already be included in the statline.

So on the charge, Kharn is Str 6 with 7 attacks, and when not on the charge, he's only got Str 5 with 6 attacks. So whoever gets the charge between Bjorn and Kharn should win.

Also: I thought there was a rule that 2-handed weapons like power axes couldn't be paired with bolt pistols in CC? Am I just crazy and made that up?

Even more: in the new codex, is Gorechild a power axe, or is it completely unique? Because it used to be a power axe, which means Bjorn basically curbstomps Kharn 100% of the time thanks to the unwieldly rule.

Gorechilds strength increase is not included in his statline - no other characters have this either.

Examples: Typhus's manreaper has +2 strength but his statline still shows S4. Same for Hurons Axe and Claw (both +2S).

Kharn is S5 base, so with Gorechild and Furious Charge he is S7 on the charge.



Gorechild has it's own weapon entry in his codex page now:

S+1, Ap2, Melee, Armourbane.

The description says it is a massive ancient chainaxe.



Also, Kharn would always muller Bjorn wether charging or not (i think) as he is I5 so would hit first, hit on 2's, and get 2D6 to penetrate with his S6 attacks.

Bjorn charging Kharn......
Kharn = 5 attacks at S6, Ap2, I5. hit on 2's, 2D6 to pen.
Bjorn = 5 attacks at S7, Ap2, I3. hit on 4's

Kharn charging Bjorn.......
Kharn = 6 attacks at S7, Ap2, I5. hit on 2's, 2D6 to pen.
Bjorn = 4 attacks at S7, Ap2, I3. hit on 4's.

azazel the cat wrote:So on the charge, Kharn is Str 6 with 7 attacks, and when not on the charge, he's only got Str 5 with 6 attacks. So whoever gets the charge between Bjorn and Kharn should win.

I'm really starting to suspect you haven't even read Kharn's rules at this rate. Gorechild is +1S making him S6 most of the time, and he has Furious Charge which makes him S7 on the charge.

Look, can you not just shoot him silly dead? It seems to me that it is pretty hard to take him out in CC.

Unless he is in a landraider. In that case you need to use a unit as a speedbump. Then melta the landraider and shoot the unit. (Depends on your army.)

Thats the gist of it.

Your best bet is to shoot the gakk out of him before he gets into CC and eats your entire army.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Even more: in the new codex, is Gorechild a power axe, or is it completely unique? Because it used to be a power axe, which means Bjorn basically curbstomps Kharn 100% of the time thanks to the unwieldly rule.

Gorechild is unique. It's statline doesn't include unwieldy. As it's a former Primarch weapon, I'm fine with that.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:So on the charge, Kharn is Str 6 with 7 attacks, and when not on the charge, he's only got Str 5 with 6 attacks. So whoever gets the charge between Bjorn and Kharn should win.

I'm really starting to suspect you haven't even read Kharn's rules at this rate. Gorechild is +1S making him S6 most of the time, and he has Furious Charge which makes him S7 on the charge.

As a matter of fact, I've only seen the new CSM rules briefly, and most of what I'm working off of was the 4th Ed. version. I had no idea Kharn received such a boost. Additionally, I was under the impression that statline bonuses granted by base wargear were already included in statlines in all new codices, because, y'know, that's what GW said was going to happen. And it turns out that there was another line in my post that you failed to quote that would have explained my reasoning. Funny thing, that.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:So on the charge, Kharn is Str 6 with 7 attacks, and when not on the charge, he's only got Str 5 with 6 attacks. So whoever gets the charge between Bjorn and Kharn should win.

I'm really starting to suspect you haven't even read Kharn's rules at this rate. Gorechild is +1S making him S6 most of the time, and he has Furious Charge which makes him S7 on the charge.

As a matter of fact, I've only seen the new CSM rules briefly, and most of what I'm working off of was the 4th Ed. version. I had no idea Kharn received such a boost. Additionally, I was under the impression that statline bonuses granted by base wargear were already included in statlines in all new codices, because, y'know, that's what GW said was going to happen. And it turns out that there was another line in my post that you failed to quote that would have explained my reasoning. Funny thing, that.

The only other part of that post was you asking if Gorechild counts as unique or a Power Axe because Power Axes are two-handed. Aside from the fact that Power Axes are not two-handed, that had nothing to do with Kharn's strength at any given time, and still meant you didn't know the rules. The heart of the matter is you are telling people they are wrong based on an out of date Codex and new rules that you don't even know.

It's fine not to know the rules, but don't pretend like you do for some time just so you can start telling people who are actually right that they are wrong. It is a waste of everyone's time.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Additionally, I was under the impression that statline bonuses granted by base wargear were already included in statlines in all new codices, because, y'know, that's what GW said was going to happen. And it turns out that there was another line in my post that you failed to quote that would have explained my reasoning. Funny thing, that.

items that increase a stat are being included, unless it is a weapon. weapons are getting a whole statline of their own with str, AP and special rules. Thus Kharn is str5 and gorechilde is "user+1 AP2 armorbane" in future there might be wargear that prevents you from attacking with a particular weapon.

Alternatively if kharn has krak grenades he could attack with those. Sure he is str5+1=6 normally but one could imagine him not wanting to kill a sentinal he is locked in combat with so he doesnt get shot. He could krak grenade it. similarly if he had debuffs on him(maledictions?) he would still be str 6 with krak grenades.


In 6th we are seeing weapon profiles seporate from the user, and you can choise what weapon to use.

 azazel the cat wrote:

buddha wrote:Kharn is most definitely has Str.7 (5 base, +1 for gorechild, +1 for furious charge) and 7 attacks (4 base, +1 for BP, +2 for rage) on the charge.

Yeah, Gorechild's +1 to Str should already be included in the statline.

So on the charge, Kharn is Str 6 with 7 attacks, and when not on the charge, he's only got Str 5 with 6 attacks. So whoever gets the charge between Bjorn and Kharn should win.

Also: I thought there was a rule that 2-handed weapons like power axes couldn't be paired with bolt pistols in CC? Am I just crazy and made that up?

Even more: in the new codex, is Gorechild a power axe, or is it completely unique? Because it used to be a power axe, which means Bjorn basically curbstomps Kharn 100% of the time thanks to the unwieldly rule.

You don't even have the codex and are telling people what the rules are?

Unless you have a couple squads charging in with alot of special weapons and a Wolf Priest, i would try to kill him Via shooting.

I found my way to kill him with Orks just fine.

Nob Bikers murder the poor guy and his squad.

Exergy wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

Additionally, I was under the impression that statline bonuses granted by base wargear were already included in statlines in all new codices, because, y'know, that's what GW said was going to happen. And it turns out that there was another line in my post that you failed to quote that would have explained my reasoning. Funny thing, that.

items that increase a stat are being included, unless it is a weapon. weapons are getting a whole statline of their own with str, AP and special rules. Thus Kharn is str5 and gorechilde is "user+1 AP2 armorbane" in future there might be wargear that prevents you from attacking with a particular weapon.

Ah, then I stand corrected. Thanks for actually reading my post, Exergy.

see if you can land some THSS termies onto him, they tend to get the job done pretty qickly that or feed him a cheap unit then dakka the living gack out of him