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 Testify wrote:
You should know that if revenues are 66m and profits are 6m, reducing prices by 10% will wipe out their profits, unless there's a huge upsurge in demand.

Clearly GW know that dropping prices wouldn't compensate for the loss of revenue so they don't do it.

You don't even understand basic economics of supply and demand, not to mention being flat wrong in your assertion. Stahp.

1) It's an expensive license.
2) Warner Bros. has price control when it comes to the license.
So, while I see it as completely overpriced, it's not simply a matter of GW saying 'gee, let's screw our customers while we can!'
It's a lucrative license and an expensive one and not at all indicative of GW 'going insane.'

Eilif wrote:

 Testify wrote:

While at the same time their customer base is not growing (by some reports is shrinking).

I've seen this "fact" bandied about quite a lot, was there any concrete proof of this? Not doubting YOU, just the fact. Thanks to anyone who helps me out.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

Eilif wrote:

 Testify wrote:

While at the same time their customer base is not growing (by some reports is shrinking).

I've seen this "fact" bandied about quite a lot, was there any concrete proof of this? Not doubting YOU, just the fact. Thanks to anyone who helps me out.

I don't have any of them on me but I am sure I've seen that stated in their yearly/half yearly/quarterly reports. Last year sales dropped something like 10% here in Australia.

Yes, well, Australia could be due to the ungodly amount you get charged for the stuff.

Alright, thanks for the heads-up, I was really curious if it was just wishing ill on peoples' part, or if there was any basis for the belief.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

Eilif wrote:

 Testify wrote:

While at the same time their customer base is not growing (by some reports is shrinking).

I've seen this "fact" bandied about quite a lot, was there any concrete proof of this? Not doubting YOU, just the fact. Thanks to anyone who helps me out.

I don't have any of them on me but I am sure I've seen that stated in their yearly/half yearly/quarterly reports. Last year sales dropped something like 10% here in Australia.

The problem with those numbers is it's still an assumption that the customer base is shrinking. It's just as likely that it's growing but people are buying a lot less.

All those numbers prove is their sales are shrinking, not customer base.

As to the "customer base shrinking" if I recall it was in one of the reports. I don't have the link, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, but until then, I'm operating on what I recall.

Loki may be right, but if so, I don't believe it changes my overall point. Whether customer base, or just sales customer are shrinking,...
sales are still shrinking, the prices are still going up and shareholders are still taking huge dividends.

This is not GW hate, this is simply the facts as GW has told us in their reports and in their prices.

I've yet to hear a purswasive argument that shows that this is good business practice or -if in continues- financially sustainable.

I have seen people play LOTR quite a few times. In my gaming area in North Carolina I see more LOTR than WHFB. It's still a rare sighting and every time I see someone playing it I do a double take but it does happen.

LotR is much more popular than WHFB and WH40k in europe and the UK guys, remember that.

And besides, collectors will go apeshit over all of it.

Last data I heard was that 40K outsells WHFB and LotR (combined) 4-1, and that WHFB outsells LotR 2-1 (though at the peak of the trilogy's popularity that last number probably reversed).

What about Warmachine/Hordes numbers compared to WHFB? I'd be fascinated to know them.

There's really no way to know that, PP isn't a publicly traded company and I don't even think GW releases that detailed sales info.

Lots of Hobbit hype here in the states.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

alphaecho wrote:
Sales were affected ten years ago.

Back then you didn't need to sell your left testicle to afford an army.

Hence why they would've been an easier sell than nowadays. Nobody in their right mind will buy these trolls, and I have a feeling this whole hobbit thing is going to be a horrific flop for GW in general. The prices they're setting clearly show they're either idiots, think their product is far more of a "premium" than it really is, or most likely, both.

Where are they buying testicles and what is the going rate?

BronzeJon wrote:
LotR is much more popular than WHFB and WH40k in europe and the UK guys, remember that.

Really? My evidence was anecdotal but, at the time the LotR game came out and for a year or so afterwards, I was a regular at a store in the UK. I never once saw a sale of a LotR game box, or a LotR game being played aside from an intro game. I have never met anyone who plays the game.

LotR books and movies are definately more popular, but of how much interest is that? What is important to us is the GAME and WH is by a very large margin more wide spread than LotR

BronzeJon wrote:
LotR is much more popular than WHFB and WH40k in europe and the UK guys, remember that.

I've never seen this game being played in the UK. Either in the shop or at warhammer world...I'm not saying people don't play it, but I'd be amazed if this were true.

Everytime I've been to Warhammer World the majority of people were playing 40k (Unless it's an official event)

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What about Warmachine/Hordes numbers compared to WHFB? I'd be fascinated to know them.

Last I heard from a retailer survey Warmachine had overtaken Fantasy, but Hordes was still lagging behind it. 40k was still far in the lead. For awhile PP was heavily outselling GW at the FLGS here, but I heard just yesterday that the PP sales have dropped off recently and that GW is now back in the top spot locally.

BronzeJon wrote:
LotR is much more popular than WHFB and WH40k in europe and the UK guys, remember that.

And besides, collectors will go apeshit over all of it.

What? Nice generalisation. I've never heard of LOTR being played anywhere in Polish shops, no tournaments. And 40k and FB do have a yearly international event going on.

BronzeJon wrote:
LotR is much more popular than WHFB and WH40k in europe and the UK guys, remember that.

And besides, collectors will go apeshit over all of it.

You can scratch another country from your list of "countries where LotR is more popular", because I think in the years since the last LotR movie I think I saw 1 game of LotR being played...

I have a sizable collection of LotR (I got into the hobby with those magazines that they had) but have only played 1 proper game of it (games with my 13 year old friends at home and with a loose grasp of the rules doesn't count).

The way I see it here its WH40K>WHF>LOTR. I havent seen a game of LOTR played at any store I ever went, but I might just missed that or people play at home or small clubs. Lots of people prefer to play at home. Their only reason for ever going to stores is that there are not enough gamers around due to the fact that GW stuff were carried by limited stores, that marked up the already high prices and most kids simply cannot afford a serious army. So serious gamers are not easy to find, but once found its more likely to evolve to friends that play at each others house.
Here the LOTR franchise is still strong and I might say that its much more popular than the iconic Star Wars one. Some years ago DeAgostini had some LOTR collecting magazine which destributed GW LOTR minis and rule sets. Due to the LOTR frenzy many people got them without being gamers. You see there is a very strong rock and metal community in Greece, so most young people were familiar with Tolkien's work way before the movie. It was something like requirement to know your Tolkien if you wanted to be a serious metalhead

Now about the Hobbit thing. I think that everybody expects that the Hobbit Trillogy will flop. They took a little naive story, which actually IS a children's book and streched it to become a 3 movies saga. Its just not going to work. There is not enough original material. That means that they will have to add material just for the sake of adding. The purists will hate it. They even hate LOTR which imo was a very honest approach to the epic and I dont think that it could be better as a whole. The rest fans will be amazed for a short time due to the effects and artwork and then will drop it. I think the whole industry knows it thats why they marked up so high the TM rights. GW tries to get the most out of a very limited time window. You can understand this just by looking at the products. They seem made in haste. Especially the Goblin Town is a mockery at the face of customer base. I mean anyone can do much better with 10 euros worth of balsa wood and glue....

Something worth noting is that the "core" Lord of the Rings stuff from "Fellowship" to "Return of the King" was available in a lot more places than GW products normally are. And not just at game shops.

It was available at K-Mart, Wal-Mart, Borders, and Barnes and Noble here in the US. None of those are places where one would think "Hey, maybe I'll find some Games Workshop product!" there.

 martin74 wrote:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat970005a&prodId=prod1830012a


Not saying I am even interested in playing the Hobit game. But, 85 USD for this, three models. Maybe the roast on the fire is worth it but I don't think so. This is an example (in my opinion) of how GW is pricing themselves out of a game.

Your thoughts.

People will definately pay it, I just checked my local high street store that is a supplier of GW and they have sold all of their Hobbit stock that they put out on thursday.
This is a store in quite a poor area and i would not have thought that anyone there would be willing to part with so much cash for figures, shows how much i know.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Yes, all Hobbit products are too expensive.
But keep in mind that these Hobbit trolls are almost Giant sized, not River Troll sized:

I wont buy them, but yea, it says on their page they come on 60mm bases, which means, friggin big ass minis. So really, $85 isnt bad at all

Eilif wrote:
As to the "customer base shrinking" if I recall it was in one of the reports. I don't have the link, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, but until then, I'm operating on what I recall.

Loki may be right, but if so, I don't believe it changes my overall point. Whether customer base, or just sales customer are shrinking,...
sales are still shrinking, the prices are still going up and shareholders are still taking huge dividends.

This is not GW hate, this is simply the facts as GW has told us in their reports and in their prices.

I've yet to hear a purswasive argument that shows that this is good business practice or -if in continues- financially sustainable.

How about this for a persuasive argument (and I’m in no way saying that this is correct, just that it is a persuasive argument for the drop in sales)

Taking that we know that sales have gone down but presuming that they number of new players is consistent with the number of players who drop out (i.e. the customer base is remaining steady)

5 years ago GW customers spent 10% more per year, and as such got all their armies completed in 3 years (this is a made up example) now, due to buying less, they complete their armies in 4 years. GW still make the same amount per year (this is proven, infact profits are going up) but can “cash in” on the customer for 4 years as opposed to 3.

So in that situation the increased price is actually a more sustainable business practise.

Stranger83 wrote:

Eilif wrote:
As to the "customer base shrinking" if I recall it was in one of the reports. I don't have the link, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, but until then, I'm operating on what I recall.

Loki may be right, but if so, I don't believe it changes my overall point. Whether customer base, or just sales customer are shrinking,...
sales are still shrinking, the prices are still going up and shareholders are still taking huge dividends.

This is not GW hate, this is simply the facts as GW has told us in their reports and in their prices.

I've yet to hear a purswasive argument that shows that this is good business practice or -if in continues- financially sustainable.

How about this for a persuasive argument (and I’m in no way saying that this is correct, just that it is a persuasive argument for the drop in sales)

Taking that we know that sales have gone down but presuming that they number of new players is consistent with the number of players who drop out (i.e. the customer base is remaining steady)

5 years ago GW customers spent 10% more per year, and as such got all their armies completed in 3 years (this is a made up example) now, due to buying less, they complete their armies in 4 years. GW still make the same amount per year (this is proven, infact profits are going up) but can “cash in” on the customer for 4 years as opposed to 3.

So in that situation the increased price is actually a more sustainable business practise.

You have some good ideas, but the two assumptions that
presuming that they number of new players is consistent with the number of players who drop out
and
can “cash in” on the customer for 4 years as opposed to 3
don't have enough evidence yet.

I don't think there's enough proof that folks are sticking around longer or buying the same over time. Just that those who do stick around are paying more.

It may be confidential, but I'd like to see numbers showing if the number of sku's sold has changed over the past 10 years.

Eilif wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

Eilif wrote:
As to the "customer base shrinking" if I recall it was in one of the reports. I don't have the link, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, but until then, I'm operating on what I recall.

Loki may be right, but if so, I don't believe it changes my overall point. Whether customer base, or just sales customer are shrinking,...
sales are still shrinking, the prices are still going up and shareholders are still taking huge dividends.

This is not GW hate, this is simply the facts as GW has told us in their reports and in their prices.

I've yet to hear a purswasive argument that shows that this is good business practice or -if in continues- financially sustainable.

How about this for a persuasive argument (and I’m in no way saying that this is correct, just that it is a persuasive argument for the drop in sales)

Taking that we know that sales have gone down but presuming that they number of new players is consistent with the number of players who drop out (i.e. the customer base is remaining steady)

5 years ago GW customers spent 10% more per year, and as such got all their armies completed in 3 years (this is a made up example) now, due to buying less, they complete their armies in 4 years. GW still make the same amount per year (this is proven, infact profits are going up) but can “cash in” on the customer for 4 years as opposed to 3.

So in that situation the increased price is actually a more sustainable business practise.

You have some good ideas, but the two assumptions that
presuming that they number of new players is consistent with the number of players who drop out
and
can “cash in” on the customer for 4 years as opposed to 3
don't have enough evidence yet.

I don't think there's enough proof that folks are sticking around longer or buying the same over time. Just that those who do stick around are paying more.

It may be confidential, but I'd like to see numbers showing if the number of sku's sold has changed over the past 10 years.

True, hence why I said at the start that it is just an argument, and that I cannot prove it true - I was just wanting to point how how it can be a sustainable business practise.

However - it could also be said that we do not know that the GW customer base is shrinking either, I doubt even GW know the exact number of cusomers they have now compared to 5 years ago - they only real proof/information anyone has is the amount of sales, which we know to be down 10%. However, since prices keeping going up, and profits also keep going up, that would imply that the customer base is staying relatively similar (as a falling customer base would have rising prices and a flat profit after the first year of increases) or at the very least the increase in profits is making only a small decrease in the customer base. Though again, this is just speculation and I do not know for a fact.

I will agree the price is a little high, but the price for most character minitures is around 20.00 USD. Seeing that they're HUGE, and the Hobbit is a brand new line with I assume to be expensive licensing, $80.00 isn't ridiculous. Would I get them? Probably not.

Regarding the trilogy of movies (which is OT so I'l be brief) purists will likely be pissed. But if they took creative license and made GOOD MOVIES (here's a novel idea) then the general public will be happy and they'll be commercially viable.

Can we entertain a thought? Just as a "what if?" I almost imagine this being the run-up to GW's property being purchased by something bigger such as Hasbro, in the long run. If figures are not consistent, investment groups are not going to bother and the value of the shares could not reflect the potential of the IP. I certainly never thought, at the time, that game companies such as Fasa, TSR, White Wolf or Wizards of the Coast could be gobbled up so quickly.

Your thoughts?