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I was just wondering how if you think it's worth it to spend points on flakk missiles, and if it is how many missile launchers should have them. Any help would be appreciated.

Well if you are taking them then you would take them on all the missile launchers in the squad, otherwise you are mixing and matching weapons which is always a bad idea.

As to actually taking them, the answer is; it depends. Chaos are a very flexible codex and can get anti air in a number of ways even without looking at allies. In general I would recommend sticking with Autocannons on Havocs purely because they are amazingly for their points and still do reasonably well against fliers due to the high rate of fire. However if you have absolutely no other anti air in your list then Flakks can be useful.

They are rather expensive for what they do and for the really dangerous fliers 4 S7 shots a turn won't be enough (even with skyfire you have to hit). Most of the time Hades' will do the job better and on the platforms they come with they have either the option to get skyfire or enough shots to get the job done.

I run 7 havocs, 2xFlakks, 2xAutocannons behind a ADL with a Quadgun, it has worked very well. The flaks have been useful for when the quadgun with interceptor doesn't manage to finish it's target, since it can shoot again on my turn usually the flakks take care of any half wounded flyer or at least keep them evading.

I'm with Shadox. For CSM a Heldrake is cheaper and can deal with flyers better.

We need to wait and see how flakk missiles make it into the other codexes (which units) if they get attached onto any codex specific kit (say a new IG AA Tank) and whether the cost comes down.

Silly question for Lord Yayula I've been toying with the idea of an ADL with gun. Can the gun fire at one target and the unit fire at another? (Not trying to be funny, I just don't know)

Nop, you need to fire everything at the same unit since it is manned by one of the Havocs. However due to interceptor rule on the gun when anything come from reserves you can shoot it, on your opponent's turn but can't fire it on your next shooting phase, so you could actually shoot one flyer as soon as it comes out of reserves and then on your turn shoot the flakks at another one.

As Shadox said 175pts isn't worth the investment for AA that actually doesn't have a great chance of taking down most flyers.

 Jasper wrote:
I'm with Shadox. For CSM a Heldrake is cheaper and can deal with flyers better.
We need to wait and see how flakk missiles make it into the other codexes (which units) if they get attached onto any codex specific kit (say a new IG AA Tank) and whether the cost comes down.

And what does you're helldrake do when I don't have flyers? It's a lot of points for pretty limited firepower. Sure you can fire at ground targets, but I'd rather over-pay to fire at flyers (and be good vs ground) rather than over pay to fire at ground targets.

I like the idea of 2 autocannons, 2 flakk ML's, and a Quadgun.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Jasper wrote:
I'm with Shadox. For CSM a Heldrake is cheaper and can deal with flyers better.
We need to wait and see how flakk missiles make it into the other codexes (which units) if they get attached onto any codex specific kit (say a new IG AA Tank) and whether the cost comes down.

And what does you're helldrake do when I don't have flyers? It's a lot of points for pretty limited firepower. Sure you can fire at ground targets, but I'd rather over-pay to fire at flyers (and be good vs ground) rather than over pay to fire at ground targets.

I like the idea of 2 autocannons, 2 flakk ML's, and a Quadgun.

-Matt

helldrakes are great at attacking ground. Str7 vector strike and then the flamer. awesome.

Helldrake with the autocannon. It's far better than silly str 7 missiles and other shots. Forget it's cheaper, forget it's a flier with an invul, it has a rule that allows you to re-roll pen attempts, for those times when you need something to die.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Jasper wrote:
I'm with Shadox. For CSM a Heldrake is cheaper and can deal with flyers better.
We need to wait and see how flakk missiles make it into the other codexes (which units) if they get attached onto any codex specific kit (say a new IG AA Tank) and whether the cost comes down.

And what does you're helldrake do when I don't have flyers? It's a lot of points for pretty limited firepower. Sure you can fire at ground targets, but I'd rather over-pay to fire at flyers (and be good vs ground) rather than over pay to fire at ground targets.

I like the idea of 2 autocannons, 2 flakk ML's, and a Quadgun.

-Matt

You get nearly the same firepower of 4 krak missiles sure on a worse bs but on a way more durable platform even if you factor in the adl. A flyer with AV 12 & 5++ is nearly indestructible for everything without skyfire.

Flakk missiles are just too expensive. 175 points for 4 Str7 shots. One of those is going to miss, they arent twin linked like quad guns.
also consider flakk is 40 points extra on top of the cost of an already expensive missile launcher system.

Take auto havocs and quadgun, take lascannon havocs and a quad gun, take a forgefiend, take a helturkey. All better at multirole and still pretty good at anti air than flakk havocs. If you KNOW you are going to be facing air, ally in guard with vendettas/hydras.

They are worth it if you really highly value the like .4 more glances per turn you'll be getting from them vs other options that outperform the missile option is more normal areas or in cost.

Stuff in the csm codex tends to get expensive (I still like rhinos) and 4flakk isn't a great answer to air so I tend to try to use a lot of options combined instead of loading up on 500+ points of missiles that will spend a turn killing one Jet. But it really ain't too pretty any way you slice it.

I kinda like 7 FML havocs with a quad gun. Accounts for around 2 hp and your big dumb birds or whatever can help with the rest while hopefully doing other stuff pretty well. I like necron or guard ally for solutions too.

While we're on the subject are quad guns and icarus lascannons worth it? It seems like the quad gun is quite good for the price but I don't know about the icarus. I plan on putting havocs in an aegis defense line, and would like to know what weapons would go well with the mounted ones.

The one issue I see with all presented solutions, is that neither autocannons, nor missiles provide a decent counter to AV 14. Hellturkey also cannot hurt it.
Just stirring the pot a bit here

Sorry, haven't had a chance to look at all the fliers yet, but ohhhh god, is there a flier with av 14? o.o

cause... the answer AV 14 is melta range and melta range only. If you're firing anything else at Av 14, you're either winning big, or desperate.

The Heldrake Baleflamer is amazing vs any Infantry but Terminators, so I usually run it with that, and if there's a Flyer on the way in, it can typically Vector Strike it. But the Hades autocannon is S8, so if it hits, along with Daemon Forge, it can definitely nail other Flyers effectively. Of course the first time I tried it out it missed completely, then got wrecked from the rear end due to enemy Raptor bolt pistol fire!
So I'd probably go with the Quad Gun/2 or 3 Autocannon Havoc Squad w 1 or 2 Flakk Missiles. And don't forget Flakk Missile Launchers can be Krak missiles vs anything too, so they're versatile. Good for getting that last hull point on the Night or Doomscythe that just won't go down, or nailing a Chimera, etc... Plus the Havocs can contest objectives if one is placed behind their Aegis Line.

 Lord PoPo wrote:
Sorry, haven't had a chance to look at all the fliers yet, but ohhhh god, is there a flier with av 14? o.o

cause... the answer AV 14 is melta range and melta range only. If you're firing anything else at Av 14, you're either winning big, or desperate.

or have DE allies


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The Heldrake Baleflamer is amazing vs any Infantry but Terminators, so I usually run it with that, and if there's a Flyer on the way in, it can typically Vector Strike it. But the Hades autocannon is S8, so if it hits, along with Daemon Forge, it can definitely nail other Flyers effectively. Of course the first time I tried it out it missed completely, then got wrecked from the rear end due to enemy Raptor bolt pistol fire!
So I'd probably go with the Quad Gun/2 or 3 Autocannon Havoc Squad w 1 or 2 Flakk Missiles. And don't forget Flakk Missile Launchers can be Krak missiles vs anything too, so they're versatile. Good for getting that last hull point on the Night or Doomscythe that just won't go down, or nailing a Chimera, etc... Plus the Havocs can contest objectives if one is placed behind their Aegis Line.

cant you Vector Strike things on the ground. Seems that d3+1 str7 hits would open a chimera easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
The one issue I see with all presented solutions, is that neither autocannons, nor missiles provide a decent counter to AV 14. Hellturkey also cannot hurt it.
Just stirring the pot a bit here

Havoc Lascannons are the overlooked choice in the dex. Everybody is all 3*5autohavocs this and that when you can have lascannons for 40 points more. If going after light armor flyers they suck, but against av12 they arent so bad even with snapshots.
They also can handle the AV13 at range and are not wasted against AV14.

I'm saying, sticking with the current meta of All autocannons and missiles, there are no guarentees your meltas get in range if your opponent is smart with target priority

There is no Flyer with AV14, only 12.

Str7 needs 5s to glance it.

Frankly, you are better off using Autocannons for the higher rate of fire. Or a Hellturkey with Hades Autocannon.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There is no Flyer with AV14, only 12.

Str7 needs 5s to glance it.

Frankly, you are better off using Autocannons for the higher rate of fire. Or a Hellturkey with Hades Autocannon.

Against AV12.
str9 needs 3s to glance, so twice as many damage results(glance and pen). Lascannons have half the shots of autocannons, but twice the damage results. so a wash right?
NO, lascannons pen on 4+ where as autocannons pen on 6s. So lascannons have 3 times the chance to pen and when it does pen, twice the chance to blow it up. Total of 6 times the chance to make it go boom in one shot. 4 lascannons cost 155 while 4 autocannons cost 115 but they arent bad.

Where did I mention anything about lascannons?

 Exergy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There is no Flyer with AV14, only 12.

Str7 needs 5s to glance it.

Frankly, you are better off using Autocannons for the higher rate of fire. Or a Hellturkey with Hades Autocannon.

Against AV12.
str9 needs 3s to glance, so twice as many damage results(glance and pen). Lascannons have half the shots of autocannons, but twice the damage results. so a wash right?
NO, lascannons pen on 4+ where as autocannons pen on 6s. So lascannons have 3 times the chance to pen and when it does pen, twice the chance to blow it up. Total of 6 times the chance to make it go boom in one shot. 4 lascannons cost 155 while 4 autocannons cost 115 but they arent bad.

Ummm, 3 times chance to pen?...

4 lascannons need (1/6) to hit a flyer, thats 0.666 hits, then need (3/6) to pen, that gives you 0.33 pen shots.

4 autocannons need (1/6) to hit flyers but they have 8 shots, so thats 1.33 hits, need (1/6) to pen, thats 0.22 pen shots with them, only 0.11 less but they cost 40 pts less.

If you are going for glancing + pen

4 lascannons *(1/6)*(4/6) thats 0.444 hull points
8 autocannons *(1/6)*(2/6) gives you 0.444 hull points

So they are pretty much the same against flyers with a better chance to blow it due to AP2 but are more expensive, oh and can deal with AV14.

Flakks btw would score 0.444 pens on flyers and take 0.88 hull points