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Let me preface this by saying the following:

-Totally new to MEQ

-Totally new to GK

-Totally new to close combat

-Totally new to Mechanized infantry

-Totally new to MSU

Right? I play Gunline blob-guard, and aircav guard, so all this stuff is foreign to me 100%. Knowing these weaknesses to my skill-set, I decided to hone said skills with Grey Knights. Purifiers being the clear, and fun choice, I have opted for Psyback Purifiers as the base of my list for my current escalation league. Now at 1000 points, I have come to realize I have no idea what I'm doing. I come to you with a few honest, albeit admittedly pathetic questions:

How does one most effectively use purifiers in Razorbacks?

What does a MSU Purifier list look like?

How on earth do I use the Vindicare?

What do I do about flyers?

and finally...

What does one do with Crowe?

Appreciate any help you guys can give me, and hopefully with said help I can actually come to enjoy playing GK.

Cheers,
-TheCaptain

Edit: Also, as much of the advice I take in will lead to spending and league games, I'd appreciate if said advice be good/from experience, rather than the usual "Well, I heard X is good", "Why not try Y, it sounds cool.", or the dreaded "I once had Z kill so and so, despite being nigh statistically impossible. So you should definitely take Z."

I don't know how to answer all of your questions, but I'll do the best I can.

For Crowe, what is commonly recommended is to take a second HQ choice alongside him. Grandmasters, Librarians, and Inquisitors (particularly Malleus, Xenos, and Coteaz) are all good options. The reason that they are usually suggested is that Crowe is fairly squishy (he doesn't have IC, so he easily gives up Kill the Warlord unless you have another option). Really, the best I can recommend is to either keep him out of sight, or use him to draw a turns worth of shooting from one or two units. He really is a tax, sadly.

With a Vindicare, you generally want to use the Turbopenetrator round to pop tanks, and then the hellfire or shield breaker round to pick out weapons and characters. Just remember to do the mathhammer before choosing your target to decide which option is better. Remember they have stealth, so putting them in cover or behind an Aegis is golden, as they only have a 4++. Think of them kinda like a melta-sternguard unit, you point it at the thing you most want dead, which it has a decent chance of killing, and hope that it survives to the next turn to do it all again.

When dealing with flyers, you really do have three options. The first is to take your own Storm Raven, which is not a bad choice. Yes, they cost as much as a Land-Raider, but they do fly and have some fairly good AA options, with a twin-linked skyfire multi-melta and a TL Lascannon, but even if you go the dakka route with TL HB, TL AC, and Sponson Hurricane Bolters with Psybolt Ammo you can grind off a few hull points.

The second option is the 'psyfleman dread', or a Dreadnaught with 2 TL AC and Psybolt ammo. That package gives you 4 TL S8 shots for 135 points a piece, and will in theory land you 1.2 S8 hits a turn. Not the best AA, but not every codex has access to Hyrdas and Vendettas.

Fortunately GK do have access to Hydras and Vendettas. Option 3 is to bring Guard allies with Vendettas and Hydras if you are really worried about flyers. It may also appeal to you since you already have the guard models, and it would make the transition between the two armies 'easier' (heck, I might even suggest trying GK out as allies for your guard while you get a feel for them).

Also, just remember that with GK, you will be outnumbered, and while you hit hard, you don't have the same staying power as guard or even codex marines due to your low wound count. I'm not going to lie and say that a 3+ save is bad, but just always be thinking that 3+ saves quite absorb as many wounds as you would like them too.

Anyways, I wish you luck with your experiment with MEQ and Grey Knights.

1) The Psycannon: Love it

the psycannon is the meat of every GK list. Ti is one of the best guns in the game due to its versatility.

You can move an 4 snap shots against flyers
Move and get 2 rending autocannon shots
4 shots on overwatch

It has enough shots to hurt hordes, rending for heavy infantry, and it has a decent chance against any AV value (can even hurt AV14)


Usually purifier units have minmum 2 psycannons, always.

MSU Purifier build usually is 5 purifiers with 2 psycannons and halberds.


2) Rhino Vs. Razorback

In a rhino, you can shoot your 2 psycannons out of the top without exposing your purifiers
With a razorback you get more firepower in the list, and gain weapons with a range greater than 24"

The choice is not simple, and people prefer both. You can even mix and match.


3) Dealing with 24" range

This is one of any GK list's biggest weaknesses. in a purifier list your options for long range shooting are basically Razorbacks or Dreadnoughts (2x tl Autocannons, Psybolt, AKA Psy-Rifle Dread)




A list will basically look something like this:

Crowe

Some Purifier units in transports
1 5 man Strike squad in a Razorback

Dreadnoughts

Optional:
other HQ's
Storm Raven


The strike squad holds a home objective
Crowe steals their transport for a solo mission

First several turns you scoot and shoot, dealing damage with psycannons
Last few turn you assault onto objectives

The great thing about GK is that they are a strong and robust codex, so as long as you're not using Draigo and Paladins, you can pretty much experiment with your builds and tactics.

Purifier MSU would most likely look like this:

1 Crowe

5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition

1 Dreadnought with 2 Twin-linked Autocannon and Psybolt Ammunition
1 Dreadnought with 2 Twin-linked Autocannon and Psybolt Ammunition
1 Dreadnought with 2 Twin-linked Autocannon and Psybolt Ammunition

Add more Purifier groups as needed and as points allow.

Simply hiding Crowe nets you a +1 VP via denying your opponent 1 VP for Slay the Warlord.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that Purifiers (or Grey Knights in general) are melee units. Yes, they have cheap halberds and cleansing flame. Stand still and use those Psycannons, damn you! The melee stuff is more or less there to bail you out if you DO have to fight; Cleansing Flame will maul any horde really badly and halberds will let you poke some MEQ down. You really don't want to be stuck in melee though, because it means you're not using your psycannons. If you feel comfortable that you can kill something in melee then by all means charge and kill it, but you really shouldn't be focussing on getting into melee with Grey Knights. They're a primarily shooty army.

Forget psyflemen for ackack. For the same price range 5 more purifiers with 8 shots in heavy 4 mode, and they can move and shoot in heavy 4 mode against flyers. An ap2 rend is worth 2 ap4 hits, and with prescience from a psycannon inquisitor in the squad it will land 3.6 hits/turn.

Those last two posts in particular have excellent points.

I'd run something like;
Crowe
TDA Divy Inquisitor
2x Dreadknights
ADL with Quad Gun
Rest in 10 man Purifiers squads with Hammers and quad Psycannons

The great thing about Dreadknights and Purifiers is that each unit can deal with a wealth of different enemies, and together cover pretty much all the basis. Inquisitor to give one squad re-rolls to hit each turn, put Crowe on the quad gun, and if someone tries to ID him, just go to ground for the 2+ cover. I think it is important in this list to name your Inquisitor as the Warlord though.

The rest is standard; stand still in midfield shooting like there's no tomorrow with the Purifiers while the Dreadknights provide large threat radii to funnel enemies into that 24" area of death.

Don't forget you can combat squad your Purifiers. This means instead of paying 40 points for Psybolts for every ten Purifiers, you can pay 20 points and combat squad them.

This also gives you the option to stack four Psycannon into a five man squad, and leaves you with a fairly choppy five man squad as well. It also gives you the option of NOT combat squad-ing for kill-point games.

Just another option to be aware of.

crowe is fearless and thus not able to go to ground behind the Aegis.

My thoughts pretty much includes all the above.

Check the details under HQ's, Elites, and Transports.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460371.page

Also, I'd still encourage a storm raven if you can find the points for it. Purifiers generally lack good air defense and also long range reliable AP2 or dedicated anti-tank , and anti-flyer defenses. As purifiers are unable to GtG, you're gonna not get that much out of keeping them behind an aegis. Leave that job to henchmen or strikes.

Fav use so far has been the run behind the rhino for LOS block and flat out trick. The rhino in my purifiers lists have just become a 40 point marine that's somewhat bigger. The no assault out of transports really hurt but it's nice to be able to hide inside a ride in case of baleflamers.

5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition

And you just wasted 80 points better used elsewhere.
Paying a full psyammo cost to give only THREE (3) stormbolters psyammo...are you completelly nutts?

 Pyriel- wrote:

5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, at least 1 Daemon Hammer, Psybolt Ammunition in Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition

And you just wasted 80 points better used elsewhere.
Paying a full psyammo cost to give only THREE (3) stormbolters psyammo...are you completelly nutts?

Well said. Even in full sized squads I tend not to give Purifiers Psybolts as you are paying for 6 Storm Bolters only, and the 16 S7 shots should be enough anyway.

Well part of what was really super cool about MSU way back when, was that your scoring units were so hearty in their 4+ cover save rarely glanced to death metal boxes and didn't lose all that much shooting for being in them because you were usually facing things you wanted special weapons to kill (transports/MSU units) and it just gave you more access to wonderful contesting units that did all sorts of nice things like blocking for you or moving your guys 12.

Purifiers did this pretty darned well! Sadly, the things that made that sort of list really workable have sorta petered out. They are still good at a lot of nice stuff, but it's hard wanting to live that way anymore. Blocking and stuff are still really neat tricks but you've got some expensive-ass marines there.

crowe, a single inquisitor with level 1 psy, a vindicare assassin and then 60 purifiers, 40 with 8 halberd 2 hammer, the other 20 with swords and 4 psycannons. All the squads can combat squad, for a stupid 12 units and with a vindicare plus 8 psy cannons, 4 of which will re-roll to hit, you will be fine.

Don't pay for psy bolt ammo, just take more guys, helps in the long run.

 juraigamer wrote:
crowe, a single inquisitor with level 1 psy, a vindicare assassin and then 60 purifiers, 40 with 8 halberd 2 hammer, the other 20 with swords and 4 psycannons. All the squads can combat squad, for a stupid 12 units and with a vindicare plus 8 psy cannons, 4 of which will re-roll to hit, you will be fine.

Don't pay for psy bolt ammo, just take more guys, helps in the long run.

Don't start another Purifier Squad until you've filled the previous one up on psycannons. Grey Knights live and die by their psycannons, 8 isn't enough.

I find it hard to reach melee if I'm stopping and shooting.

Therefore 40 guys heading towards the enemies face, while 20 shoot and the vindicare shoots as well.

There's no point in putting psycannons in every unit if the goal is to kill things in melee. Purifiers are the one unit GK can use to waste anything short of TH/SS terminators in melee, that's what psycannons are fire.

 juraigamer wrote:
I find it hard to reach melee if I'm stopping and shooting.

Therefore 40 guys heading towards the enemies face, while 20 shoot and the vindicare shoots as well.

There's no point in putting psycannons in every unit if the goal is to kill things in melee. Purifiers are the one unit GK can use to waste anything short of TH/SS terminators in melee, that's what psycannons are fire.

You've got that a little fack to bront. Purifiers are a shooting unit, that happens to be OK in combat. They should only be moving to get into range for shooting. Then let the enemy come to you while you shoot some more, move back while they advance, and shoot some more, and then only get into combat when you absolutely have to.

They get 16 S7 rending shots for 40 points. 40 points!. You'd have to be mad not to take advantage of that.

For 1,850 points I'd look at:

Castellan Crowe

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (psyker level 1)

10 Purifiers (4 Psycannon, 1 hammer, 5 Halberds)

10 Purifiers (4 Psycannon, 1 hammer, 5 Halberds)

10 Purifiers (4 Psycannon, 1 hammer, 5 Halberds)

10 Purifiers (4 Psycannon, 1 hammer, 5 Halberds)

Dreadnought (Two TL Autocannons, Psybolt ammo)

Dreadnought (Two TL Autocannons, Psybolt ammo)

Dreadnought (Two TL Autocannons, Psybolt ammo)

This comes to 1,798 points, leaving you about 50 points to play with. Maybe drop a Dreadnought and grab some Razorbacks, but that's personal preference. I'd be tempted to swap out a squad of Purifiers for some Interceptors, giving you some Warp Quake protection from deep-striking nasties (Flamers, really. Nothing else is particularly scary.) and the ability to shunt around the table and take some objectives if you need to.

You've got that a little fack to bront. Purifiers are a shooting unit, that happens to be OK in combat. They should only be moving to get into range for shooting. Then let the enemy come to you while you shoot some more, move back while they advance, and shoot some more, and then only get into combat when you absolutely have to.

They get 16 S7 rending shots for 40 points. 40 points!. You'd have to be mad not to take advantage of that.

Exactly.

So, I must ask, but I goofed when building my purifiers and built 4 psycannons, 2 hammers and 4 swords. Should I scrap the sword models or do you think I can still play with them?

 Happygrunt wrote:
So, I must ask, but I goofed when building my purifiers and built 4 psycannons, 2 hammers and 4 swords. Should I scrap the sword models or do you think I can still play with them?

They're still very playable, but they lose a lot of combat punch. They've still got the WS, Attacks and Purifying Flame going for them, but you'll lose more models in combat since you won't be striking first any more.

Just make a more concerted effort to keep them out of combat with things that are I4 or more.

Oh wait, how many units are we talking here? I'm assuming that if one unit is kitted out like this, the other Purifier units can stand in front of them and take the assaults from things that are I4 or more. If you've built several units this way, it could be an issue. If you've only got the one unit, then it's not such a huge deal though.

 Kaldor wrote:
I'd be tempted to swap out a squad of Purifiers for some Interceptors, giving you some Warp Quake protection from deep-striking nasties (Flamers, really. Nothing else is particularly scary.) and the ability to shunt around the table and take some objectives if you need to.

Interceptors can score??

 Kaldor wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
So, I must ask, but I goofed when building my purifiers and built 4 psycannons, 2 hammers and 4 swords. Should I scrap the sword models or do you think I can still play with them?

They're still very playable, but they lose a lot of combat punch. They've still got the WS, Attacks and Purifying Flame going for them, but you'll lose more models in combat since you won't be striking first any more.

Just make a more concerted effort to keep them out of combat with things that are I4 or more.

Oh wait, how many units are we talking here? I'm assuming that if one unit is kitted out like this, the other Purifier units can stand in front of them and take the assaults from things that are I4 or more. If you've built several units this way, it could be an issue. If you've only got the one unit, then it's not such a huge deal though.

I have one 10 man unit with 4 halberds, 4 psycannons and 2 hammers, a strike squad with a psycannon and a halberd, Crowe, Coteaz and a Librarian. So only one unit. (I say Coteaz because I use him in my IG army, so I could run him in GK)

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
I'd be tempted to swap out a squad of Purifiers for some Interceptors, giving you some Warp Quake protection from deep-striking nasties (Flamers, really. Nothing else is particularly scary.) and the ability to shunt around the table and take some objectives if you need to.

Interceptors can score??

Sorry, should have said contest, not take. Unless you're running a GM, and then you can make them scoring.

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
I'd be tempted to swap out a squad of Purifiers for some Interceptors, giving you some Warp Quake protection from deep-striking nasties (Flamers, really. Nothing else is particularly scary.) and the ability to shunt around the table and take some objectives if you need to.

Interceptors can score??

Sorry, should have said contest, not take. Unless you're running a GM, and then you can make them scoring.

Speaking of; how advisable would this be? (Taking a GM, that is.)

The ability to make psyfle dreads/purgation squads and interceptors scoring seems like a nice boon.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
I'd be tempted to swap out a squad of Purifiers for some Interceptors, giving you some Warp Quake protection from deep-striking nasties (Flamers, really. Nothing else is particularly scary.) and the ability to shunt around the table and take some objectives if you need to.

Interceptors can score??

Sorry, should have said contest, not take. Unless you're running a GM, and then you can make them scoring.

Speaking of; how advisable would this be? (Taking a GM, that is.)

The ability to make psyfle dreads/purgation squads and interceptors scoring seems like a nice boon.

I love Grandmasters, even though they're expensive they're effectively turning stuff that shouldn't be scoring into additional Troops. If you don't need extra Troops you can always have stuff Scout up the board and get into 24" range faster.

Sorry, I just like to play them as per the old codex, I already have a shooting army or two, mixing it up is fun, winning with a way that people say doesn't work is even more fun.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Forget psyflemen for ackack. For the same price range 5 more purifiers with 8 shots in heavy 4 mode, and they can move and shoot in heavy 4 mode against flyers. An ap2 rend is worth 2 ap4 hits, and with prescience from a psycannon inquisitor in the squad it will land 3.6 hits/turn.

If you are refering to Psycannons rending, Rending does not become AP2 when you roll to Penetrate, only when rolling to Wound.

Crazyterran wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Forget psyflemen for ackack. For the same price range 5 more purifiers with 8 shots in heavy 4 mode, and they can move and shoot in heavy 4 mode against flyers. An ap2 rend is worth 2 ap4 hits, and with prescience from a psycannon inquisitor in the squad it will land 3.6 hits/turn.

If you are refering to Psycannons rending, Rending does not become AP2 when you roll to Penetrate, only when rolling to Wound.

Not true.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Forget psyflemen for ackack. For the same price range 5 more purifiers with 8 shots in heavy 4 mode, and they can move and shoot in heavy 4 mode against flyers. An ap2 rend is worth 2 ap4 hits, and with prescience from a psycannon inquisitor in the squad it will land 3.6 hits/turn.

If you are refering to Psycannons rending, Rending does not become AP2 when you roll to Penetrate, only when rolling to Wound.

Not true.

Actually it is true, read the Rending rules. It specifically says when rolling to wound, which you do not against vehicles.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Forget psyflemen for ackack. For the same price range 5 more purifiers with 8 shots in heavy 4 mode, and they can move and shoot in heavy 4 mode against flyers. An ap2 rend is worth 2 ap4 hits, and with prescience from a psycannon inquisitor in the squad it will land 3.6 hits/turn.

You are missing the whole point.

The dreads are there as they have a gun that has more than 24" range.
Play against a DE list that can move and shoot at 36" while you only can do that at 24" to see why that is important.

 svendrex wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Forget psyflemen for ackack. For the same price range 5 more purifiers with 8 shots in heavy 4 mode, and they can move and shoot in heavy 4 mode against flyers. An ap2 rend is worth 2 ap4 hits, and with prescience from a psycannon inquisitor in the squad it will land 3.6 hits/turn.

You are missing the whole point.

The dreads are there as they have a gun that has more than 24" range.
Play against a DE list that can move and shoot at 36" while you only can do that at 24" to see why that is important.

Still pretty badly outgunned if de outmanoeuvred the gk army, and now is poor shape to deal with necrons especially quantum shielding. I just think psyflmen lost almost half their bite going into 6th ed.