Switch Theme:

What Killed the Power blob? (IG)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

watchamacarcess wrote:I have used single squads time and time again and i fail to see how they are better.

You can't get tarpitted.
You can't lose an entire infantry platoon to a single failed morale check (yes, that still happens, even with commissars).
You can split your fire amongst targets as needed.
You make your opponent more vulnerable to overkill.
It's cheaper, because you don't have to buy commissars. 3x power weapon commissars = a russ or artillery piece.
You can take advantage of speed bumps.
You get more scoring units.
Problems with wound allocation and precise shots don't screw up your strategy.
It's easier to get cover saves (guys in the second row get a save from the guys in the first row).
You can rotate out weak or injured squads more easily

... and that's just the things I could think of in two minutes that make MSU better now.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




 Ailaros wrote:
watchamacarcess wrote:I have used single squads time and time again and i fail to see how they are better.


It's easier to get cover saves (guys in the second row get a save from the guys in the first row).



Can a unit get cover from itself?
   
Made in us
Honored Helliarch on Hypex




I don't believe so (though the enemy doesn't get cover saves when a unit shoots through its own models, either).

Edit: I think he's referring to sticking one platoon squad behind another -- which does make one wonder why the enemy just doesn't kill the front squad before they attack the rear. A mystery for the ages, I suppose.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/13 02:44:04


 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




So either way, no cover possible.

That or Ailaros meant that one IS can cover the other
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Inquisitor Jex wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
watchamacarcess wrote:I have used single squads time and time again and i fail to see how they are better.


It's easier to get cover saves (guys in the second row get a save from the guys in the first row).



Can a unit get cover from itself?


The two rows are separate units. This is a reason why the MSU version is better than the single blob.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain





NYC

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

That or Ailaros meant that one IS can cover the other


That's what he meant.

Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

Rick's Cards&Games 1000pt Tourney: 2nd
Legion's Winter Showdown 1850: 2nd Place
Snake Eyes 1000pt Mixed Doubles: 3rd Place

Elysian 105th Skylance W:37-L:3-D:6 in 6th Edition

The Captain does HH:Imperial Fists! Tale of Four Gamers Plog (New Batrep posted!) 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
watchamacarcess wrote:I have used single squads time and time again and i fail to see how they are better.


It's easier to get cover saves (guys in the second row get a save from the guys in the first row).



Can a unit get cover from itself?


Off-Topic answer. Venomthrope and KFF mek to name 2.

On topic to the original OP.

6th ed put the nail in the coffin for Blobs imo. In 5th a decent player could manage them fairly easily. In 6th where cover is worse for the majority, you peel closest models as they die, barrage weapons, precision shots, etc.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Corollax wrote: which does make one wonder why the enemy just doesn't kill the front squad before they attack the rear.

They would need two different units. The first shoot at the first and the second shoot at the second.

Not only is this a disadvantage in itself, but it also exacerbates force concentration problems. Once the first unit is done, will the second unit shooting at the second rank actually not have to deal with cover?

Plus focus firing. A single unit shooting at a single unit can focus fore more efficiently, as it can attack anything in that huge wad of guys that doesn't have cover.


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
1st Lieutenant




Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

I remember about a week ago I mentioned in a thread that blobs got worse in 6th and I got a TON of rage from people who said that blobs are still good and that MSU is terrible.

It seems in a week that the meta changed significantly hahahaha

DS:90S++G++M--B++I++Pww211++D++A+++/areWD-R+++T(T)DM+

Miniature Projects:
6mm/15mm Cold War

15/20mm World War 2 (using Flames of War or Battlegroup Overlord/Kursk)

6mm Napoleonic's (Prussia, Russia, France, Britain) 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Columbus, GA

 Ailaros wrote:
THIS is what killed the power blob.

These problems are mostly fatal to shooting blobs as well. The only thing that a commissar helps with is leadership issues. It's now way too easy to just kill a blob outright, regardless of leadership, something which commissars can't help you with.

This means that MSU has gone back to being the better option for several reasons, not the least of which being that you no longer have to spend points on commissars.



I was reading your link and I saw this:

Elites choices got better. Ratlings gained precision shot, ogryn gained overwatch mania, and can give tough cover to infantry squads, and stormtroopers get to abuse the wound allocation closest-must-die-first along with pinpoint deepstrike and Ap3 overwatch. The non-troops part of the guard infantry just got better. More importantly, elites choices feel like they synergize with infantry platoons a lot better than before, rather than just doing what infantry were already doing, but worse, or at greater cost.


So.. are ratling and ogryns worht taking now or not? Because from other discussions on the board, it seems like they still aren't worth it. I think having a unit of ratlings with sniper rifles might make a sound choice to reliably pick off enemy officers.

DaddyWarcrimes: "Playing IG means never having to use the end of a screwdriver to pound a nail because you always have the points to bring the hammer."
Valhalla130's Hobby Progress thread: Valhallans, 'Nids and Fists
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





New Jersey

Has anyone tries allying in DA and using Azrael to lead a blob squad giving them all fearless and a 4+ invulnerable save. Could be really nasty!

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I'm just curious, isn't safer and easier just to spam Chimeras with the troops and multilaser/heavy bolter the threats to death you would attack with the power blob? In 6th, even my BA are leaning towards "shoot it in the face!" tactics. In fact, in my experience, torrent of fire is the easiest way to deal with TH/SS terminators.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/13 15:17:19


 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




 Valhalla130 wrote:


So.. are ratling and ogryns worht taking now or not? Because from other discussions on the board, it seems like they still aren't worth it. I think having a unit of ratlings with sniper rifles might make a sound choice to reliably pick off enemy officers.


I would use them, in fact, I *do* have a 5 man Ratling squad
   
Made in us
Malicious Mutant Scum




i wasnt aware of them being good before....so why are they dead now? in 5th its was just as easy as it is in 6th to deal with a p-blob walk the otherway or shoot large blast into or tarpit with a dreadnought nothing new there

Dream Crush 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





 Valhalla130 wrote:

So.. are ratling and ogryns worht taking now or not? Because from other discussions on the board, it seems like they still aren't worth it. I think having a unit of ratlings with sniper rifles might make a sound choice to reliably pick off enemy officers.


Both are awful. Reliably? No. Luckily? Maybe. Requiring a 6 followed by a 4+ to wound, followed by a failure of LoS followed by a failure of an armour save. Ratlings I'm afraid are weak at best, there are so many better ways to spend points. I mean I want to like them, but sniper rifles are just bad. 6s on 6s for anything useful to happen.

Edit: I actually think a Griffon would have better chances of taking out an officer than ratlings. That's just some quick math in my head though, usually wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/13 17:21:05



Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...

FAQs 
   
Made in us
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman






I play power blob a lot....I do have some other support models, but most of my lists have about 130 models on the board.

It's something that I think people underestimate, they often forget that "quantity is a quality of its own" and do something stupid like charge a blob of 50 guard with 5 terminators.

Now I don't field a lot of power fists or anything, but I do give the sergeants and commissars meltabombs on the off chance that a dreadnought would lock my blob in close combat or such.

You can't get around challenges by accepting with sergeants, and precision shots and such can be avoided through Look Out, Sir! rolls.

Removing models from the front should be easy enough to work around.

An important thing with blobs is you have to deploy them right and have a plan with them, they're a bit more tactically complex than you think.

For instance, one game I deployed them rather poorly behind cover because of the missile launchers opposing me....and even though I did dispatch the launchers, the blob spent too long trying to get out where it can do something and didn't accomplish much.
Another time I tabled a dark angels player with basically a third of my army - the 50 man blob - because he underestimated it and I kept putting pressure on him with it.....the rest of my army didn't need to do much, because 2+ save or not when I'm rolling 50 dice something is going to die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ailaros wrote:
watchamacarcess wrote:I have used single squads time and time again and i fail to see how they are better.

You can't get tarpitted.
You can't lose an entire infantry platoon to a single failed morale check (yes, that still happens, even with commissars).
You can split your fire amongst targets as needed.
You make your opponent more vulnerable to overkill.
It's cheaper, because you don't have to buy commissars. 3x power weapon commissars = a russ or artillery piece.
You can take advantage of speed bumps.
You get more scoring units.
Problems with wound allocation and precise shots don't screw up your strategy.
It's easier to get cover saves (guys in the second row get a save from the guys in the first row).
You can rotate out weak or injured squads more easily

... and that's just the things I could think of in two minutes that make MSU better now.




The opposite is also true.....they need to kill 3 guys to make you fall back, which with 8 or 7 leadership you most likely will do.
You're more vulnerable to being picked off one by one....Assault Terminators will eat a squad of guard alive....I've killed Mephiston in overwatch with the 50 man blob...
You don't need multiple commissars, just put in a lord commissar and now you don't have to worry about snipers or such, and your warlord is protected.
You can choose to break away from dreadnoughts (I give my sergeants meltabombs)
If you rely heavily on orders you will only need maybe 2 voxes for a 5 squad platoon than 5 if they were individual squads.

It all depends on your play style, what works for you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/13 17:42:57


When asked by a German Officer to surrender his forces at Mortain, Lieutenant Kerley of the 30th Infantry Division replied by saying "Go f**k yourself."
How have you served your country today? 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain





NYC

 Valhalla130 wrote:


Elites choices got better. Ratlings gained precision shot, ogryn gained overwatch mania, and can give tough cover to infantry squads, and stormtroopers get to abuse the wound allocation closest-must-die-first along with pinpoint deepstrike and Ap3 overwatch. The non-troops part of the guard infantry just got better. More importantly, elites choices feel like they synergize with infantry platoons a lot better than before, rather than just doing what infantry were already doing, but worse, or at greater cost.


So.. are ratling and ogryns worht taking now or not? Because from other discussions on the board, it seems like they still aren't worth it. I think having a unit of ratlings with sniper rifles might make a sound choice to reliably pick off enemy officers.


Nooo. Ailaros only says they got better, which is true. But it's like going from a 0/10 to a 2/10. Ogryn are still too expensive, and Ratlings are still poor leadership, poor toughness, and will only kill stuff with superb luck; they're not reliable.

Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

Rick's Cards&Games 1000pt Tourney: 2nd
Legion's Winter Showdown 1850: 2nd Place
Snake Eyes 1000pt Mixed Doubles: 3rd Place

Elysian 105th Skylance W:37-L:3-D:6 in 6th Edition

The Captain does HH:Imperial Fists! Tale of Four Gamers Plog (New Batrep posted!) 
   
Made in us
1st Lieutenant




Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

Yep, they went from a 0/10 to about an 2/10 for me. In order for Ogryns or Ratlings to work, you basically need to build your army around a large core of them. Which doesn't work at all.

Like, "a core of 30 Ratlings and 100 sniper rifles among your army" core.

DS:90S++G++M--B++I++Pww211++D++A+++/areWD-R+++T(T)DM+

Miniature Projects:
6mm/15mm Cold War

15/20mm World War 2 (using Flames of War or Battlegroup Overlord/Kursk)

6mm Napoleonic's (Prussia, Russia, France, Britain) 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




I see them as a special unit that does a certain thing. I do not know why spamming elite slots suddenly make'em better

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/13 18:10:28


 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain





NYC

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I see them as a special unit that does a certain thing. I do not know why spamming elite slots suddenly make'em better


Problem is they don't do that certain thing very well. They will run away after a heavy glare, take wounds at 2+ from almost everything, and can't score.

"They're a sniper unit, they're there to pick off stuff."

Problem is, they're not good at it.

-1/6 chance of a precision shot.
-1/12 chance of causing a wounding precision shot
-Opponent gets their full armor save all but 1/36 times.

Five Ratlings shoot at a Guard infantry squad; hoping to pick off their Plasmagunner:

-1.67 regular hits; 0.83 precision shots.
-0.83 regular wounds; 0.249 precision wounds; 0.16 rending wounds
-0.416 Regular Unsaved Wounds; 0.125 Unsaved Precision Wounds; .16 Unsaveable Rending Wounds

Less than half of a regular wound on GEQ, and .25 wounds on designated targets. So 1/4 times, you can successfully snipe a guardsman. Unless he is a sergeant, then its 1/8 times due to LoS.

So yeah; not very good "Snipers".

Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

Rick's Cards&Games 1000pt Tourney: 2nd
Legion's Winter Showdown 1850: 2nd Place
Snake Eyes 1000pt Mixed Doubles: 3rd Place

Elysian 105th Skylance W:37-L:3-D:6 in 6th Edition

The Captain does HH:Imperial Fists! Tale of Four Gamers Plog (New Batrep posted!) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

That article was also written like three days after 6th ed came out. I could probably update the bottom part.

Niner009 wrote:The opposite is also true.....they need to kill 3 guys to make you fall back, which with 8 or 7 leadership you most likely will do.

Rerollable Ld 8 with a standard isn't much worse than rerollable Ld9 with a commissar. Plus, you can still take lord commissars and have them be useful in MSU guard.

Niner009 wrote:You're more vulnerable to being picked off one by one....Assault Terminators will eat a squad of guard alive....I've killed Mephiston in overwatch with the 50 man blob...

Then you, sir, are one lucky man. Speed bumping is better than tarpitting nowadays.

Niner009 wrote:You can choose to break away from dreadnoughts (I give my sergeants meltabombs)

You CAN'T break from dreadnoughts in you have meltabombs, though.

And speedbumping is still better here. Much better to let the first squad die and then nail the thing with a bunch of meltaguns at point blank range than to spend turn after turn hoping for good rolls with krak grenades or a couple of meltabombs.


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Though I'm not going to disagree with anyone here, it is worth stating that I'm finding power axes to be really awesome and they've been doing really quite well for me in a couple of scenario/apocalypse games recently. I'm sticking a 20-30 man squad behind some defence lines, hopefully with an objective nearby and assaults are just tending to bounce off them.
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




 TheCaptain wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I see them as a special unit that does a certain thing. I do not know why spamming elite slots suddenly make'em better


Problem is they don't do that certain thing very well. They will run away after a heavy glare, take wounds at 2+ from almost everything, and can't score.

"They're a sniper unit, they're there to pick off stuff."

Problem is, they're not good at it.

-1/6 chance of a precision shot.
-1/12 chance of causing a wounding precision shot
-Opponent gets their full armor save all but 1/36 times.

Five Ratlings shoot at a Guard infantry squad; hoping to pick off their Plasmagunner:

-1.67 regular hits; 0.83 precision shots.
-0.83 regular wounds; 0.249 precision wounds; 0.16 rending wounds
-0.416 Regular Unsaved Wounds; 0.125 Unsaved Precision Wounds; .16 Unsaveable Rending Wounds

Less than half of a regular wound on GEQ, and .25 wounds on designated targets. So 1/4 times, you can successfully snipe a guardsman. Unless he is a sergeant, then its 1/8 times due to LoS.

So yeah; not very good "Snipers".


yeah well, I see untis as they work not the math
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Columbus, GA

I really was hoping sniper rifles would get better in 6th.

DaddyWarcrimes: "Playing IG means never having to use the end of a screwdriver to pound a nail because you always have the points to bring the hammer."
Valhalla130's Hobby Progress thread: Valhallans, 'Nids and Fists
 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain





NYC

Inquisitor Jex wrote:


yeah well, I see untis as they work not the math


So basically "I recognize proof that they don't work well, but I think they work well"

Probability is math, and math is how they work. If you hit 60 percent of the time with a weapon that's supposed to hit 50 percent of the time, its not that the weapon is good, or that it works that way; its that your dice have been lucky.

If you're having that much luck with a bad unit, think about how much that luck will improve a good unit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/13 19:01:37


Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

Rick's Cards&Games 1000pt Tourney: 2nd
Legion's Winter Showdown 1850: 2nd Place
Snake Eyes 1000pt Mixed Doubles: 3rd Place

Elysian 105th Skylance W:37-L:3-D:6 in 6th Edition

The Captain does HH:Imperial Fists! Tale of Four Gamers Plog (New Batrep posted!) 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




No more I saw them and they work for me
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain





NYC

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
No more I saw them and they work for me


Then you have godlike luck, or are very generous in defining what "works".

For everyone else without said traits, I'd advise against them.

Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

Rick's Cards&Games 1000pt Tourney: 2nd
Legion's Winter Showdown 1850: 2nd Place
Snake Eyes 1000pt Mixed Doubles: 3rd Place

Elysian 105th Skylance W:37-L:3-D:6 in 6th Edition

The Captain does HH:Imperial Fists! Tale of Four Gamers Plog (New Batrep posted!) 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Inquisitor Jex wrote:
No more I saw them and they work for me


These kind of comments add nothing to the discussion. You need to explain how and why. Otherwise it's very easy to dismiss what you say as ignorant of the math and tactics. It's also anecdotal. At least give us an anecdote of how you used blobs (or ratlings) .


Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...

FAQs 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





If you need to see how power blobs work, go back a page and read Hulksmash's excellent comments.
   
Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




Should I even bother with my anecdote? Because I can feel the "it's one thing and not a consistent output of damage, therefore still bad" argument coming. That or since I was in a team with a chaos player, and I only did 3 wounds out of 6 on that MC, then it is not that good.

Doesn't matter anyway
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: