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As is the case with IG I expect this will generally be opinions, which are all valid. Also what are some tactics, weather they suck or even if it is just funny.

6th ed basically killed off what made them worth taking. They're only good for countercharging now.

Take tiny squads and hide them out of LOS the best you can and hope your opponent brings some big, expensive, non-Sv2+ unit directly into your deployment zone.

Rough riders are garbage. They have no purpose other than sitting on your display shelf looking pretty.

Really? Like really? Not even for dramatic charge of the light brigade style things? Or even little "Supras bitch, right where it hurts!"?

 andtheyshallknownofear wrote:
Really? Like really? Not even for dramatic charge of the light brigade style things? Or even little "Supras bitch, right where it hurts!"?

More like "oops, they had bolters, now we're all dead". They were marginal in 5th when they could charge out of reserve and consistently kill something, now all they do is get shot up and die.

That's how the Charge of the Light Brigade ends anyway, isn't it?

Personally, I've never used them, but I don't think they're going to be useful in most situations (which Peregrine described). Not to mention that they take up a precious FA slot.

 andtheyshallknownofear wrote:
As is the case with IG I expect this will generally be opinions, which are all valid. Also what are some tactics, weather they suck or even if it is just funny.

Rough Rider Tactica:

Take a minimum squad.

Opponent thinks you are horrible for including Rough Riders.

Capitalize on him underestimating you.

Rough Riders are extremely weak to being shot by bolters and dying. They can no longer assault out of Reserves, which is a bummer. To make matters worse they are one of very few assault units that actually cares about Overwatch. The icing on the cake is that they lost AP2. Rough Riders are now firmly a "shelf" unit IMO. They are not only weaker than they once were, but they are competing with units that are much better in 6th edition.

I dont know, I think if you are not going to run all vendettas then you should include rough riders. With khan they are less than 150, put out 32 attacks, are fearless, and have a huge charge range.

32 s6 init 5 ap 3 attacks for that cheap of a price certainly is not bad. Overwatch from your target unit, which is most likely a marine unit, probably amounts to 2 wounds max unless they are packing lots of flamers.

The only downside to them is how best to hide them before launching the assault. With 12 + 2d6 with rerolls for the assault distance, they have a great threat range. If your models can safely hide behind a chimera, then you have a moving block of cover to advance behind and launch counter attacks from. If your models are too tall behind a chimera, then you are at the mercy of the terrain on the table, unless you already bought a fortification.

So are roughriders better than a vendetta? No, the vendetta is broken as its a transport on top of everything else. If you dont want a vendetta for one of several reasons, however, then roughriders are a great choice thanks to their low cost and one of a kind abilities.

The best you can do with them is have them as a defensive unit when the enemy comes knocking. Just charge and assume you will lose them, but you will take some guys with you.

They are great vs MEQ, work vs monsterous creatures without a 2, but that's about it. They are a one shot wonder.

DevianID wrote:
The only downside to them is how best to hide them before launching the assault.

And this is exactly the problem. You can't fit a full 10-man squad behind a Chimera, and I'm not sure you can even fit any of them without at least some parts sticking out above the Chimera. So say you lose half the squad to bolters before getting to charge, then another couple models to overwatch, and suddenly that 32 attacks is more like 5-10 attacks, or less if you lose the character.

Well since there is no roughrider model, if you use biker model size guys as your height comparison then you would be able to hide them behind a chimera wall. If the models are too tall to hide behind a chimera and you have no other way of blocking LOS, then yeah they can get targeted if they threaten something.

Many places do have LOS blocking terrain, and some people play with fortifications which would block LOS. In these times, or for people whose rough riders hide behind a chimera, rough riders are amazing. As a unit to stick out in the open, I agree that they will get focused down. That is true of any unit, however, so to claim it is a failing of rough riders is unfair. A veteran squad with 3 plasma guns and a las cannon runs about the same cost, and takes most of a game to do the same damage that a squad of rough riders can do in one turn.

That is the point of why rough riders are good--front loaded damage makes a bigger impact than steady damage most of the time, AND taking a single unit of rough riders has almost no opportunity cost if you decided not to run 3 units of vendettas, as the low cost of entry and wide variety of targets that rough riders are good against makes only av14 and 2+ save units troublesome for rough riders, which can be handled by said troop units.

DevianID wrote:
Well since there is no roughrider model,

Rough rider models exist: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440251a&prodId=prod1070188

if you use biker model size guys as your height comparison then you would be able to hide them behind a chimera wall.

Using biker models to hide behind a Chimera wall would be modeling for advantage since the official model is a much taller cavalry model.

Many places do have LOS blocking terrain, and some people play with fortifications which would block LOS. In these times, or for people whose rough riders hide behind a chimera, rough riders are amazing.

Except that:

1) Those LOS blocking terrain features aren't always where you need them to be.

and

2) You have better things to use them for. Why hide a squad of rough riders when you can hide a Basilisk or Colossus?

As a unit to stick out in the open, I agree that they will get focused down. That is true of any unit, however, so to claim it is a failing of rough riders is unfair. A veteran squad with 3 plasma guns and a las cannon runs about the same cost, and takes most of a game to do the same damage that a squad of rough riders can do in one turn.

Except that:

1) The veterans are in a Chimera or Vendetta, not out in the open getting shot to death by bolters.

2) You don't have a lascannon on a veteran squad.

3) They don't take the whole game to do the same damage.

AND taking a single unit of rough riders has almost no opportunity cost if you decided not to run 3 units of vendettas

Since when is 150 points "low opportunity cost"? That's the price of a Medusa, and if I have a choice between a Medusa or rough riders I know which one I'm going to take.

To be honest I'm not a competitive player. My army, fluff wise, is a huge foot slogging army fresh from the founding fields. And the thought of some young, desperate, glory seeking lietenant leading an old fashioned charge of the light brigade (and btw some of them do come home. If not many) into the enemy lines, either to by the foot sloggers some time or to surprise those tau infantry. As far as I can tell, although they may not play competitive, they do play fun. And really that's what I'm here for. For a fun, cinematic battle where I enjoy it weather I win or lose. But pulling a win off is always a bonus, and if sticking a couple rough riders in (with different heads cause the ones they have right now look like gak) than I'll take them! Any tactics?

 andtheyshallknownofear wrote:
As far as I can tell, although they may not play competitive, they do play fun. And really that's what I'm here for. For a fun, cinematic battle where I enjoy it weather I win or lose.

So what's the point in asking for help then? You obviously don't care about effective tactics, and all that matters is that the unit fits your personal idea of "fun". So why bother asking for advice you're just going to ignore? Use them in a "fluffy" way, charge something, and death or glory!

Wow old models, but indeed they exist. Vets in a vendetta are not shooting by the way and vets in a chimera, while good, cost a good bit more than 145. Also, it seems you dismissed the riders so fast that you are making wild claims about vets effectiveness.

Rough riders deal about 13 wounds to meq. 6 plasma shots deal about 3, 2 in cover, and 1 outside of 12 inches. 13 Lasgun shots deal 1 wound, halved beyond 12 inches. So at best you can get 4 marines in the open in a turn, and 2 at range. so yes, it takes an entire game for plasma vets to do what riders do in 1 turn, and if they have decent cover you may never add up to riders in 7 turns.

As to opportunity cost, 145 points in a 1750 game does not preclude any options. You can still get your colossus or what ever and get rough riders. The only lost opportunity is for anther vendetta, and we already established rough riders are for when you don't want all vendettas, as vendettas are the premiere fast attack.

Edit: anyone know how tall those ancient models actually are? The old models scale tends to be smaller than comparable stuff now a days.

They can be used as a fast melta gun.

Not a great idea, but two meltas on a fast carrier is not a TERRIBLE idea...

DevianID wrote:
Vets in a vendetta are not shooting by the way and vets in a chimera, while good, cost a good bit more than 145.

The point is that the plasma vets have a transport and can expect to get into range without suffering a significant drop in firepower (since even if your Chimera explodes you can take the wounds on your meatshields and save the plasma guns), so you can count their full firepower. Rough riders have no such protection, and every time you lose a model to random bolter fire the effectiveness of the squad drops significantly.

Rough riders deal about 13 wounds to meq. 6 plasma shots deal about 3, 2 in cover, and 1 outside of 12 inches. 13 Lasgun shots deal 1 wound, halved beyond 12 inches. So at best you can get 4 marines in the open in a turn, and 2 at range. so yes, it takes an entire game for plasma vets to do what riders do in 1 turn, and if they have decent cover you may never add up to riders in 7 turns.

Except your rough riders get slaughtered before they get into charge range, so what you're really looking at is the surviving 1-2 models inflicting 1-2 casualties. In a real game the rough riders struggle to even match the single-turn damage output of the veterans, and don't even come close to the full-game potential.

As to opportunity cost, 145 points in a 1750 game does not preclude any options.

Sure it does. That's still 145 points gone, which could have bought another unit of plasma vets.

And Vendettas aren't the only competition. I'd rather take Hellhounds over rough riders, and Vultures are awesome enough to take over even Vendettas. Giving up a fast attack slot for a unit with the sole purpose of soaking up a few bolter shots is a bad idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happygrunt wrote:
They can be used as a fast melta gun.

Not a great idea, but two meltas on a fast carrier is not a TERRIBLE idea...

Well, except for BS 3, so you're spending too many points for a fragile and unreliable melta gun. Pretty much any other option is better.

And don't forget that special weapons replace your lance, so if you take any of them you're throwing away the whole point of the unit.

 Peregrine wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happygrunt wrote:
They can be used as a fast melta gun.

Not a great idea, but two meltas on a fast carrier is not a TERRIBLE idea...

Well, except for BS 3, so you're spending too many points for a fragile and unreliable melta gun. Pretty much any other option is better.

And don't forget that special weapons replace your lance, so if you take any of them you're throwing away the whole point of the unit.

Note that I didn't say great. Still, they would make better tank hunters then they would assault units.

What about this option.
5 rough riders, sarg with melta bombs.
60 points.

Move 12 with fleet, and terrain doesn't slow you down.
You can charge pretty far thanks to the re-roll, and you just go for the grenades. 4 S6 attacks, +1 melta bomb.

For 60 points, they are expendable.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
You can charge pretty far thanks to the re-roll, and you just go for the grenades. 4 S6 attacks, +1 melta bomb.

And then you lose the lances for nothing. You only get to use them the first time you charge, even if you actually attack with grenades instead the lances are still gone.

 Peregrine wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
You can charge pretty far thanks to the re-roll, and you just go for the grenades. 4 S6 attacks, +1 melta bomb.

And then you lose the lances for nothing. You only get to use them the first time you charge, even if you actually attack with grenades instead the lances are still gone.

Ok, so you lose the lance attack. If you take out something worth more than 60 points you come out ahead.
I think a lot of opponents will over-look that they have grenades and ignore smaller squads due to the lack of lance damage output. Cav can threaten units ~21 inches away (12" move, 9" average charge), so even a very small unit can cover a very large area.

-Matt

I agree with Allaros - counter-attacking only. Put them completely out of sight and they have a decent threat bubble for a countercharge.

They're only 60 points - if they don't hurt anything it's no big deal, but when a MEQ assault units starts to get close to you they can be pretty useful...

To answer the earlier question of why start this thread: Just because I want to play them fluffy and for fun, does not mean that I will not use any tactics. And I want to know if they have any chance of doing jack gak

Peregrine, there are a lot of "ifs" that your argument automatically assumes. For one, you assume that only a single model will ever be able to charge. For two, while vets in a chimera are more expensive and prone to over heat deaths you assume that they automatically preserve all their fire power at the same time you assume the cheaper unit loses 8 to 9 members. You do I hope see how that is a completely illogical argument?

For one, that old model I suspect is rather short. Remembers how tiny the old terminators are? If rough riders are short enough to hide behind a vehicle, how does that change your impression of them?

Also, if we have ruled out a vendetta then a vulture would likely also be ruled out for the exact reason. I already agree that normally a vendetta is a stronger choice, but there are times when the vendetta is not an option. I disagree that a hell hound is more viable than rough riders, as the torrent flamer is only good versus a small handful of units at a close range while not that resilient to anti tank attacks.

DevianID wrote:
I disagree that a hell hound is more viable than rough riders, as the torrent flamer is only good versus a small handful of units at a close range while not that resilient to anti tank attacks.

Close range? You mean like 12" plus around another 4-8"? That kinda reminds me of how effective Rough Riders are at range.

Not resilient to anti-tank attacks? You mean like how Rough Riders aren't resilient to any attacks?

The hell-hound is better at killing pretty much everything except for 3+ saves. Then I guess the RRs will beat it (if they don't get shot up from random bolter fire), but what about everything else?

Rough riders have a very low chance of only a 4 inch charge thanks to fleet. Its about an 18 inch or greater threat range, which is the range of plasma vets in rapid fire range.

as for the torrent flamer, running in a column reduces the flame potential to 3 models. So 3 s6 hits ap4 no cover, and you put your tank in rapid fire/assault range for that. Against vees, it is 1 s6 hit on facing armor. Again, even without the 3 s6 lance attacks on the first charge rough riders have s6 grenades that hit rear armor on a 3+. So it again doesn't take many rough riders to out damage the flamer.

DevianID wrote:
Rough riders have a very low chance of only a 4 inch charge thanks to fleet. Its about an 18 inch or greater threat range, which is the range of plasma vets in rapid fire range.

as for the torrent flamer, running in a column reduces the flame potential to 3 models. So 3 s6 hits ap4 no cover, and you put your tank in rapid fire/assault range for that. Against vees, it is 1 s6 hit on facing armor. Again, even without the 3 s6 lance attacks on the first charge rough riders have s6 grenades that hit rear armor on a 3+. So it again doesn't take many rough riders to out damage the flamer.

How do the riders get near a tank? I mean, the only thing that's going to be close is a transport, in which case it's too late. Also, why would I be shooting a Helhound at a tank? Unless of course I use the Multimelta on the front...

Similarly, if the unit is moving as a vertical column, the 2" pile in will really hurt the Rough riders ability to hurt pretty much anything. Couple that with losing 1 (or 2) to a full marine squad over-watch and their charge isn't even that effective. You could even cause the marines to break combat after the charge by positioning them correctly.

I'll bring this point up again. How can you justify them when a Hellhound is better against every infantry other than Marines? If you take into account the fact that the Rough Riders lose their effectiveness after the initial charge the Hellhound is likely to pull ahead over the course of the game.

DevianID wrote:
Wow old models, but indeed they exist. Vets in a vendetta are not shooting by the way and vets in a chimera, while good, cost a good bit more than 145. Also, it seems you dismissed the riders so fast that you are making wild claims about vets effectiveness.

Rough riders deal about 13 wounds to meq. 6 plasma shots deal about 3, 2 in cover, and 1 outside of 12 inches. 13 Lasgun shots deal 1 wound, halved beyond 12 inches. So at best you can get 4 marines in the open in a turn, and 2 at range. so yes, it takes an entire game for plasma vets to do what riders do in 1 turn, and if they have decent cover you may never add up to riders in 7 turns.

As to opportunity cost, 145 points in a 1750 game does not preclude any options. You can still get your colossus or what ever and get rough riders. The only lost opportunity is for anther vendetta, and we already established rough riders are for when you don't want all vendettas, as vendettas are the premiere fast attack.

Edit: anyone know how tall those ancient models actually are? The old models scale tends to be smaller than comparable stuff now a days.

One thing I feel has been over looked about that 145 point investment. Peregrine mentioned the Chimera provides protection to it's riders, but what about the
weapons it has also brought to the party? ML/HF, HF/HF, etc.... you're getting some decent extra firepower as well.

DevianID wrote:
Wow old models, but indeed they exist. Vets in a vendetta are not shooting by the way and vets in a chimera, while good, cost a good bit more than 145. Also, it seems you dismissed the riders so fast that you are making wild claims about vets effectiveness.

Rough riders deal about 13 wounds to meq. 6 plasma shots deal about 3, 2 in cover, and 1 outside of 12 inches. 13 Lasgun shots deal 1 wound, halved beyond 12 inches. So at best you can get 4 marines in the open in a turn, and 2 at range. so yes, it takes an entire game for plasma vets to do what riders do in 1 turn, and if they have decent cover you may never add up to riders in 7 turns.

As to opportunity cost, 145 points in a 1750 game does not preclude any options. You can still get your colossus or what ever and get rough riders. The only lost opportunity is for anther vendetta, and we already established rough riders are for when you don't want all vendettas, as vendettas are the premiere fast attack.

Edit: anyone know how tall those ancient models actually are? The old models scale tends to be smaller than comparable stuff now a days.

The models are pretty short, about the height of a cyclone terminator. They are a bit too tall for hiding behind a chimera, but a hellhound should work. They do have a good sized footprint, so if you're hiding behind a tank, you are going to be pretty bunched up.

If you could get 2 units both with rage, they might be worth it. They are just too easy to kill to count on a single unit getting the job done; and without the rage and furious charge, they just don't cut it.

I'm a firm believer that T3 5+ save models should be kept cheap and expendable with redundancy.

-Matt