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 felixander wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Marbo and Meltabombs need time to prep to charge it, in which you can easily kill a single model. Lascannons need to hit and then get a 6 to pen...not too likely. A Vindicare will on average glance AV14 with just 2 dice, but you get 4 dice, meaning you're VERY likely to pen. And it's from one of the highest (if not the highest) BS models in the game...

Hang on, how do you figure that? Is there a FAQ somewhere I missed? I thought a Vindicare just got his 4D6 to penetrate? Giving him an average armour penetration score of 14?

Some people (including TOs from 2 different tournies I've been too) consider it to be that it rolls 4d6 PLUS it's strength. They take the 4d6 to be rolled instead of a single d6 for armor pen. Either way the weapon also has rending giving it a small boost.

Note: I don't read it that way but my friends and the two aforementioned TOs do so I have decided to fall back on that, though personally I still dislike the ruling.

It gets d3 for every 6 rolled since it is a sniper weapon and hence rending. That's how we play it

 pizzaguardian wrote:

 felixander wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Marbo and Meltabombs need time to prep to charge it, in which you can easily kill a single model. Lascannons need to hit and then get a 6 to pen...not too likely. A Vindicare will on average glance AV14 with just 2 dice, but you get 4 dice, meaning you're VERY likely to pen. And it's from one of the highest (if not the highest) BS models in the game...

Hang on, how do you figure that? Is there a FAQ somewhere I missed? I thought a Vindicare just got his 4D6 to penetrate? Giving him an average armour penetration score of 14?

Some people (including TOs from 2 different tournies I've been too) consider it to be that it rolls 4d6 PLUS it's strength. They take the 4d6 to be rolled instead of a single d6 for armor pen. Either way the weapon also has rending giving it a small boost.

Note: I don't read it that way but my friends and the two aforementioned TOs do so I have decided to fall back on that, though personally I still dislike the ruling.

It gets d3 for every 6 rolled since it is a sniper weapon and hence rending. That's how we play it

It's not the Rending that I mind, it's that some people say for Armor Pen you roll 4d6, while some say it's 4d6+3

Just to clarify, how the Vindicare works is that his weapon is a special sniper rifle that has the ability to fire a round that rolls 4D6 for armor penetration instead of 2. That means that the armor penetration value rolled by the Vindicare is equal to 3 + 4D6 + D3 for every 6 rolled. Ignoring Rending (since I have other things to do and don't want to spend too long on the math), that gives you an average AP roll of 17, making it extremely likely that you will score a SINGLE penetrating hit against pretty much anything. Note that even though the Vindicare is the best source of single AA shots in the game, he still only has a 36" range, is ID'd by S8, and Still only has about a 30-40% chance of destroying a target with any given shot. Considering that for 10 points more I can bring a squad of 5 Sternguard with Combi-meltas in a drop pod that offer closer to a 95% chance of destroying their AV14 target, I think its clear that the Vindicare is not excessively over-powered.

RegalPhantom wrote:
Just to clarify, how the Vindicare works is that his weapon is a special sniper rifle that has the ability to fire a round that rolls 4D6 for armor penetration instead of 2. That means that the armor penetration value rolled by the Vindicare is equal to 3 + 4D6 + D3 for every 6 rolled. Ignoring Rending (since I have other things to do and don't want to spend too long on the math), that gives you an average AP roll of 17, making it extremely likely that you will score a SINGLE penetrating hit against pretty much anything. Note that even though the Vindicare is the best source of single AA shots in the game, he still only has a 36" range, is ID'd by S8, and Still only has about a 30-40% chance of destroying a target with any given shot. Considering that for 10 points more I can bring a squad of 5 Sternguard with Combi-meltas in a drop pod that offer closer to a 95% chance of destroying their AV14 target, I think its clear that the Vindicare is not excessively over-powered.

Hmm. I had to go and check my rulebook, surprised to see snipers count as S3 against vehicles. Didn't they used to just roll 3D6 or something for armour pen? I'm pretty sure they didn't always have a strength value.

And surely you don't get a further D3 for each 6 you roll? Really?

Guess who never uses their Vindicare...

 Kaldor wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:
Just to clarify, how the Vindicare works is that his weapon is a special sniper rifle that has the ability to fire a round that rolls 4D6 for armor penetration instead of 2. That means that the armor penetration value rolled by the Vindicare is equal to 3 + 4D6 + D3 for every 6 rolled. Ignoring Rending (since I have other things to do and don't want to spend too long on the math), that gives you an average AP roll of 17, making it extremely likely that you will score a SINGLE penetrating hit against pretty much anything. Note that even though the Vindicare is the best source of single AA shots in the game, he still only has a 36" range, is ID'd by S8, and Still only has about a 30-40% chance of destroying a target with any given shot. Considering that for 10 points more I can bring a squad of 5 Sternguard with Combi-meltas in a drop pod that offer closer to a 95% chance of destroying their AV14 target, I think its clear that the Vindicare is not excessively over-powered.

Hmm. I had to go and check my rulebook, surprised to see snipers count as S3 against vehicles. Didn't they used to just roll 3D6 or something for armour pen? I'm pretty sure they didn't always have a strength value.

And surely you don't get a further D3 for each 6 you roll? Really?

Guess who never uses their Vindicare...

It's a Rending weapon, "each armour penetration roll of 6 allows a further D3 to be rolled, with the result added to the total." SHAZAAM.

And yeah snipers used to be 3 + 1d6.

No, they used to be 2D6 (4th). This was changed to 3+1D6+D3 if you rend.

How are you getting a glance against AV14 on 2 dice? The average is only 7, so when you add in the strength of the weapn, as the rules tell you to do, you get to 10.

On average he pens a land raider, as his average roll is 17. However he still only then has a 50% chance to kill a vehicle, unless it is open topped. By the time you include 2+/4+ to hit, your chance of failing to pen AND the damage roll, it "one shots" a vehicle only about 35% of thge time. He is very, very, very far from being OP

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they used to be 2D6 (4th). This was changed to 3+1D6+D3 if you rend.

How are you getting a glance against AV14 on 2 dice? The average is only 7, so when you add in the strength of the weapn, as the rules tell you to do, you get to 10.

On average he pens a land raider, as his average roll is 17. However he still only then has a 50% chance to kill a vehicle, unless it is open topped. By the time you include 2+/4+ to hit, your chance of failing to pen AND the damage roll, it "one shots" a vehicle only about 35% of thge time. He is very, very, very far from being OP

Not to mention cover. Which, if you have any brain, you are using since it's so easy to give Vehicles a 5+ these days.

My army of 3+ cover tau vehicles is rolling in the deep as it were, while my 5 razorbacks and 6 chimeras are really just sitting around now a days.

you roll 4D6 + S3 and every 6 on the 4D6 is a rend

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they used to be 2D6 (4th). This was changed to 3+1D6+D3 if you rend.

OK, I was talking about 5th edition, if we want to go back editions I'm sure 2nd had some crazy pen rolls for them, too.

Not to mention he has a pistol that can use the same rounds. Infiltrate, move, now no cover.

Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

But how about a grand master?? are those easy to kill?

 Lobukia wrote:
Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

It needs to be in a fortified ruin.

Or its boned.

no you can hide it behind your units.

 Tomten wrote:
no you can hide it behind your units.

Then it is 145 points that isn't doing anything except hiding behind stuff.

 Lobukia wrote:


Orks: A typical Draigo Wing list is under 25 models and under 35 wounds and 9 HP at 2k. Orks on the other hand can put out 118 models, 130 wounds, 13 Hp in a 2k force. Mathhammer is on the orks' side.
Again, its not like GK are a close 2nd, and Draigo wing is hardly their best list

And this is where another unit of the GK codex comes in. Purifiers. Got 100 Guys? I dont give a single care. I have a spell which hits EVERY single model in the unit automatically AND wounds on a 4+
Consider those ork's dead.

And Draigo wing. An army of two wound 2 + save guys pouncing around claiming objectives. Virtually Untouchable by small arms fire, you have to use your special ap 2 weapons. One plasma gun couldn't kill more than one terminator, and other weapons have a chance, but would still only kill one guy out of the say, 5 in the squad. The squad will survive long enough to rip everything apart.

 blood lance wrote:

And this is where another unit of the GK codex comes in. Purifiers. Got 100 Guys? I dont give a single care. I have a spell which hits EVERY single model in the unit automatically AND wounds on a 4+
Consider those ork's dead.

Wounds 50%, they save 1/6+ of that. Meh.

And Draigo wing. An army of two wound 2 + save guys pouncing around claiming objectives. Virtually Untouchable by small arms fire, you have to use your special ap 2 weapons. One plasma gun couldn't kill more than one terminator, and other weapons have a chance, but would still only kill one guy out of the say, 5 in the squad. The squad will survive long enough to rip everything apart.

Small arms are great to kill terminators. Make them roll a bunch of saves.

One plasma gun couldn't kill more than one terminator

Except when it kills two.

 felixander wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they used to be 2D6 (4th). This was changed to 3+1D6+D3 if you rend.

OK, I was talking about 5th edition, if we want to go back editions I'm sure 2nd had some crazy pen rolls for them, too.

Which had the same rules as 6th does now. They have not changed in those regards. They never rolled 3D6, although the Vindicares turbopen DID roll 3D6 in the old WH / DH codex

 blood lance wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:


Orks: A typical Draigo Wing list is under 25 models and under 35 wounds and 9 HP at 2k. Orks on the other hand can put out 118 models, 130 wounds, 13 Hp in a 2k force. Mathhammer is on the orks' side.
Again, its not like GK are a close 2nd, and Draigo wing is hardly their best list

And this is where another unit of the GK codex comes in. Purifiers. Got 100 Guys? I dont give a single care. I have a spell which hits EVERY single model in the unit automatically AND wounds on a 4+
Consider those ork's dead.

And Draigo wing. An army of two wound 2 + save guys pouncing around claiming objectives. Virtually Untouchable by small arms fire, you have to use your special ap 2 weapons. One plasma gun couldn't kill more than one terminator, and other weapons have a chance, but would still only kill one guy out of the say, 5 in the squad. The squad will survive long enough to rip everything apart.

Pfft. Draigowing is full of overpriced models that can't ever kill enough of the enemy to contest or claim enough objectives. And heaven help you if you get hit by a Breath of Chaos or a Demolisher cannon. Regular small-arms fire is enough to wear them down with attrition, let alone melta and plasma guns.

Grand master: 2+ save is better due to less ap2 weapons, have to choose of a staves are now ap4, and sword ap3. Nerfed
Champion: challanges sux, have a hard time beating seargeants, only ap3. Nerfed
Librarians: ap4 with the staff, got alot of nice psycic powers. Buffed

Paladins: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Purifiers: less ap. Nerfed

Terminators: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Strike squad: less ap. Nerfed

Stormraven: Flyer. Buffed
Interceptors: less ap, Hammer of wrath. buffed and nerfed

Dakkadread: easier to kill due to HP. Nerfed
Dreadknight: str 10 and extra attack with sword. Buffed

Just a selection of what's changed from 5th to 6th. They have been nerfed quite alot but also some buffs. They were way to OP in 5th so they needed this. They are still very good.

@Vombat

You are missing lots and lots of context. Power weapons were nerfed across the board, so GKs were not nerfed any worse than anyone else. In fact, since they can so easily churn out 2+ armor, you could say they got amazingly buffed. Pretty much no one can touch them in CC without dropping to I1, while they can use their durability to get more use out of their AP2 daemonhammers.

Incubi are pretty much the only ones who can ignore all armor in CC at high Ini, and they are really not that good.

GK remain the only ones out there with all-PW troop choices, Spammable force weapons, Power weapons with addition properties (I6 force weapons to ID HQs preemptively anyone?) and still be amazing at shooting.

 Sephyr wrote:
@Vombat

You are missing lots and lots of context. Power weapons were nerfed across the board, so GKs were not nerfed any worse than anyone else. In fact, since they can so easily churn out 2+ armor, you could say they got amazingly buffed. Pretty much no one can touch them in CC without dropping to I1, while they can use their durability to get more use out of their AP2 daemonhammers.

Incubi are pretty much the only ones who can ignore all armor in CC at high Ini, and they are really not that good.

GK remain the only ones out there with all-PW troop choices, Spammable force weapons, Power weapons with addition properties (I6 force weapons to ID HQs preemptively anyone?) and still be amazing at shooting.

THIS.

Plus every GK has the option to upgrade to the AP2 hammer or the Halberd (as you mentioned).

 Vombat wrote:
Grand master: 2+ save is better due to less ap2 weapons, have to choose of a staves are now ap4, and sword ap3. Nerfed
Champion: challanges sux, have a hard time beating seargeants, only ap3. Nerfed
Librarians: ap4 with the staff, got alot of nice psycic powers. Buffed

Paladins: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Purifiers: less ap. Nerfed

Terminators: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Strike squad: less ap. Nerfed

Stormraven: Flyer. Buffed
Interceptors: less ap, Hammer of wrath. buffed and nerfed

Dakkadread: easier to kill due to HP. Nerfed
Dreadknight: str 10 and extra attack with sword. Buffed

Just a selection of what's changed from 5th to 6th. They have been nerfed quite alot but also some buffs. They were way to OP in 5th so they needed this. They are still very good.

Nemesis Force Staves are unusual force weapons. They are AP3. Reading is fundamental.

 Vombat wrote:
Grand master: 2+ save is better due to less ap2 weapons, have to choose of a staves are now ap4, and sword ap3. Nerfed
Champion: challanges sux, have a hard time beating seargeants, only ap3. Nerfed
Librarians: ap4 with the staff, got alot of nice psycic powers. Buffed

Paladins: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Purifiers: less ap. Nerfed

Terminators: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Strike squad: less ap. Nerfed

Stormraven: Flyer. Buffed
Interceptors: less ap, Hammer of wrath. buffed and nerfed

Dakkadread: easier to kill due to HP. Nerfed
Dreadknight: str 10 and extra attack with sword. Buffed


Just a selection of what's changed from 5th to 6th. They have been nerfed quite alot but also some buffs. They were way to OP in 5th so they needed this. They are still very good.

The only this that is nerfed among GK infantry is the AP of their FWs

 Tomten wrote:

 Vombat wrote:
Grand master: 2+ save is better due to less ap2 weapons, have to choose of a staves are now ap4, and sword ap3. Nerfed
Champion: challanges sux, have a hard time beating seargeants, only ap3. Nerfed
Librarians: ap4 with the staff, got alot of nice psycic powers. Buffed

Paladins: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Purifiers: less ap. Nerfed

Terminators: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Strike squad: less ap. Nerfed

Stormraven: Flyer. Buffed
Interceptors: less ap, Hammer of wrath. buffed and nerfed

Dakkadread: easier to kill due to HP. Nerfed
Dreadknight: str 10 and extra attack with sword. Buffed


Just a selection of what's changed from 5th to 6th. They have been nerfed quite alot but also some buffs. They were way to OP in 5th so they needed this. They are still very good.

The only this that is nerfed among GK infantry is the AP of their FWs

Relatively speaking, Storm Bolters aren't as superior to Bolters as they used to be.

But stormbolters with psybolt ammo are superior to bolters.

 Sephyr wrote:
@Vombat
You are missing lots and lots of context. Power weapons were nerfed across the board, so GKs were not nerfed any worse than anyone else.

Actually, they were. Because GK have more power weapons than other armies, nerfing Power weapons is larger nerf to GK than to other armies. (And Tyranids weren't nerfed at all by the power weapon change.)
Exactly same way as nerfing CC across the board would be larger nerf for Tyranids than it would be for Tau.

 Sephyr wrote:
In fact, since they can so easily churn out 2+ armor, you could say they got amazingly buffed.

And you'd be wrong. Because you seem to somehow think that there is no AP2 shooting weapons in the game. While power weapon change made 2+ armor generally better, GK termies actually got worse against 2+ armored enemies than they were, because before they could kill most enemies with Halberds before they could strike and now have to use Daemonhammers for those.

 Sephyr wrote:
IPretty much no one can touch them in CC without dropping to I1, while they can use their durability to get more use out of their AP2 daemonhammers.

First, those AP2 Daemonhammers strike at I1, so striking at I1 against them is no an actual disadvantage. Second GK Terminators aren't actually durable. For durable CC units, see TH/SS Termies or Wraiths.

 Sephyr wrote:
IIncubi are pretty much the only ones who can ignore all armor in CC at high Ini, and they are really not that good.

Add most MC's and many CSM characters to that list.

 Sephyr wrote:
GK remain the only ones out there with all-PW troop choices, Spammable force weapons, Power weapons with addition properties (I6 force weapons to ID HQs preemptively anyone?)

And exactly how many CC oriented HQ's there are without 2+ save or no psychic defence?

Note that I personally think it was good thing GK got nerfed as heavily as they did. But point is, they definitely got nerfed a lot more than for example SW, IG or C:SM did, not to mention Nids, Tau and Necrons which all got boosted.

Dont forget lychguards they have AP1 with warscythes

Grey Knights are still fairly powerful, but not so much as they were. A lot of the changes in 6e have had rather mixed effects on the Grey Knights; let's take a look.

AP3 on normal power weapons. Terminators, which GK have easy access to, got a lot tougher, while Nemesis weapons got a little weaker; slightly positive in the long run.

Deny the Witch: Again, Grey Knights got more defenses against other peoples' psychic powers, but everyone else gets defenses against theirs. Slightly more positive here, since Grey Knights don't use many offensive powers.

Vehicle damage: On one hand the Grey Knights lost effective transports, which were central to their tactics in 5e, but on the other hand no vehicle is now safe from S8 psycannon spam. The Grey Knights' general lack of range is going to be a problem in 6e, this change is fairly negative for them.

Overwatch: Very good for the Grey Knights; they're tough enough to withstand Overwatch fire from other people, while getting to Overwatch with S5 Storm Bolters and the aforementioned S8 Psycannons.

Flyers: A problem; Grey Knights don't have a lot of range to down them, and Stormravens are fairly expensive as flyers go. Not insurmountable, but troubling.

So they'll probably end up playing differently, but they haven't really been nerfed or buffed all that significantly by 6e.