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BlaxicanX wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

OIIIIIIO wrote:
That may very well be the intent, however RAW it is a Force Weapon that inflicted the damage.

Only if you ignore context is it RAW.

That's why it's called RAW. RAW is when you ignore context. RAI is when you factor in context.

The rule states that ID caused by force weapons don't kill Kharn. It doesn't say "ID caused by activated force weapons do not kill Kharn." All it says is "ID caused by Force Weapons do not kill Kharn." Thus, as it's written, If ID is caused by a force weapon, period, it does not kill Kharn.

Thinking about it logically, and using context, we can tell that what the author meant is that ID caused by activated force weapons do not kill Kharn, meaning that ID caused by good ol' S double the T will kill him. But that is not RAW, because it isn't written anywhere in the ruling that "activated" force weapons can not ID him. Thus, it's RAI.

yeah, I dont think it is intended to work this way, but the wound came from a force weapon and activated or not Kharns rule ignores ID from force weapons RAW

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

By that logic Force Weapons can ID Khârn; it's not the force weapon that kills him, it's the "Force" special rule.

Shenanigans, The Force USR is a property of the force weapon itself. (though there may or may not be some legal loophole with which to bypass Khârns' immunity to such, this isn't one of them)

Ok so if the DH can't inflict ID, can't you activate it and the nemesis force weapon cause d3 wounds?

Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he goes bye bye.

Scorpiodragon wrote:
Ok so if the DH can't inflict ID, can't you activate it and the nemesis force weapon cause d3 wounds?

Yes. No rule against that part of it, just ID


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he goes bye bye.

Except the rule doesn't say "Activated" just Force weapon.

"In addition, if Karn suffers an unsaved wound from a Force weapon, that weapon cannot inlict Instant Death on him."

No mention of "Activated" in the rule at any point.

40k-noob wrote:

"In addition, if Karn suffers an unsaved wound from a Force weapon, that weapon cannot inlict Instant Death on him."

No mention of "Activated" in the rule at any point.

You're correct. Though do take into account that RAW that rule does pretty much nothing.
RAW Force weapon (activated or not) never causes Instant Death. It's the unsaved wound that does. Kharn's rule specifies that the "weapon cannot inflict Instant Death" and the weapon is not inflicting ID, it's the wound.

RAI is pretty obvious in this case though: Use of Force Special rule cannot cause Kharn to suffer ID.

 Neorealist wrote:
Shenanigans, The Force USR is a property of the force weapon itself. (though there may or may not be some legal loophole with which to bypass Khârns' immunity to such, this isn't one of them)

The 2x Strength is also a property of the weapon itself. If your attack S=(T*2) you ID people. If your attack has the "Force" special rule (activated) you ID people. Both are properties of the weapons.

Kharn would be immune to Instant Death.

A Force Weapon cannot inflict instant death to Kharn, period.

Whether it's trying to inflict instant death by using the Force rule, being strength 10,000,000 or physically setting the model in question on fire, Kharn cannot suffer instant death from a Force weapon.

here's how this synaptic misfire of a thread should have gone:

Khaarn gets hit by a Daemon Hammer, which is a Str x2 force weapon. he takes a wound.
is it an instant death wound? yes.
is it a force weapon? yes.
is Kharn dead? no

Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Therefore an activated force weapon can not inflict ID, but a demonhammer can as long as the force property is not active.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Context is not rules.

Kharns rule states me cannot suffer ID from a force weapon.

A force hammer is a force weapon

A force hammer happens to double the users strength, making the user normally str 8. This would inflict ID, but it cannot, since the force weapon cannot inflict ID.

A force weapon that automatically inflicts instant death does nothing to kharn.

As GW to FAQ it to state an "Activated" force weapon. Until then, kharn will survive a single force hammer swing, though he's probably still worried about this bazillion halberds coming his way.

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Therefore an activated force weapon can not inflict ID, but a demonhammer can as long as the force property is not active.

Problem is that you are ignoring the actual rule in it's context. RAW the Hammer can never inflict ID on Kharn .... EVER. The rule does not say activated anywhere in it. Just that a FW can NEVER inflict ID.

You are reading further into it and adding ACTIVATED ... that word appears nowhere in the rule.

RAW it can never ID him.

RAI I honestly believe that it should.

Then again I think that Astorath's axe should have been left a unique power weapon going at his regular ini. That was FAQ'd to not be the case though.

This boils down to 2 outcomes;
You rule that kharn doesnt die, and the defence is that kharn cannot be ID by wounds caused by a force weapon.
Is the hammer a force weapon? Yes.
Does the rule specify whether it needed to be activated? No.
Does the hammer ALWAYS have the FORCE USR? Yes.
Kharn doesnt die, as wounds ARE caused by weapons.
The other argument is that Kharn dies, because the daemon hammer isnt an activated force weapon at the time.
This runs into a problem however, in that Kharns rule DOES NOT SPECIFY ACTIVATED FORCE WEAPONS. So this is not a viable basis for this argument RAW.
The other consensus seems to be that because it is the instant death rule killing him, he would actually die. But where does that X2 strength come from?
The daemon hammer.
And what does the grey knight use to wound kharn?
The daemon hammer.
There simply is no grounds for the argument that double strength kills kharn, because you are ignoring the fact that wounds are caused by weapons. If you wanted this to work, and ID kharn without his special rule coming into play, you would have to give your opponent and armor save, because you cant be striking with the hammer at that point.

RAW(which is reading the rule and ignoring any other assumptions, intentions or contextual data) kharne does not die.
You can argue RAI until your blue in the face, because this is quite clear.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

How do force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

How do force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

Force weapons can also inflict ID by striking with a strength double the opponent's toughness.

So do not ignore the many ways a Force Weapon can inflict ID and you will see that Kharn is immune to all of them.

They also inflict ID by being twice the users toughness. A T2 model being hit by a S4 force sword suffers ID from the sword, whether it is activated or not.

You are supposing that ID prohibition is only from an activated weapon - that has no basis in the rules as written

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

How do force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

Force weapons can also inflict ID by striking with a strength double the opponent's toughness.

So do not ignore the many ways a Force Weapon can inflict ID and you will see that Kharn is immune to all of them.

Force weapons do not have a Strength score.

You are incorrect.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

How do force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

Force weapons can also inflict ID by striking with a strength double the opponent's toughness.

So do not ignore the many ways a Force Weapon can inflict ID and you will see that Kharn is immune to all of them.

Force weapons do not have a Strength score.

You are incorrect.

Force weapons do indeed have a strength score. Look at the weapon profile, it has a Strength value. It even tells you how to find out what the value is right beneath it.

Str is user (or user X2). The weapon has no Str score by itself.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Str is user (or user X2). The weapon has no Str score by itself.

Yes, it does. The Str (user) is a strength score. Yes, that score depends on some other variable. But it is still a strength score.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, Str x2 is a perfect example. If the User's strength score is 4, then the Force Weapon's strength score is 8.

so, the lesson for today is that a Daemonhammer is not the weapon to kill Kharn, but arguing over a rule that doesn't exist will...

You have two sources of Instant Death inflicted by a Thunder/Daemon Hammer: activated force weapon and strength doubling toughness.

Activating the force weapon doesn't change the fact that you have an instant death source in the form of strength doubling his toughness. It doesn't overrule it. You have multiple sources but not permission to deny one of those sources.

Kharn's rule offsets the instant death source of the force weapon but doesn't offset the instant death source of strength doubling his toughness.

Therefore, Kharn ignores the effect of the force weapon but does not have permission to ignore the strength of the wound and dies due to ID.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Str is user (or user X2). The weapon has no Str score by itself.

but the user cannot attack without a weapon. The rulebook goes to pain to say that models that do not have any weapons can attack as if they had a single CCW.

In order to do damage you usually need a weapon, shooting or CC. Your strenth does not allow you to ID something, you need to attack(with a weapon) the weapon then uses the users strength to wound and can cause ID.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Therefore an activated force weapon can not inflict ID, but a demonhammer can as long as the force property is not active.

The context does not discuss an activated Force weapon, in order to infer that context, the concept must have been brought up.

The Sentence: "I think I shall go Outside" Does not necessarily infer the context that my house is on fire, but that could very well be the reason behind it.

And as far as your Assertion that the Strength double toughness is not a property of the weapon, Melee weapon Profiles would like to have a word with you(it is no longer that the model is attack with Properties of the weapon and altering his own str, the model now fights with the weapon lending that weapon his strength).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

How do force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

But that is exactly the problem ... Force weapons have the ability to grant access to the ID rule. The ID rule that I read on pg 38 says that any wounds inflicted by an attack with this special rule inflict ID regardless of the victims toughness.

Now page 16 tells us that any unsaved wound from an attack that has strength of double the victims toughness is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a caualty.

Page 37 tells us that a FW can be ACTIVATED to grant access to the ID rule via a warp charge.

If it already has access to the ID rule (double toughness) then there is no need to activate it. STR vs TOUGH means it will already have the ID rule.

It is a FW that is inflicting an ID rule on Kharn .... and his rule ignores ID rules from ALL FW regardless of where the ID is coming from ...

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Therefore an activated force weapon can not inflict ID, but a demonhammer can as long as the force property is not active.

The context does not discuss an activated Force weapon, in order to infer that context, the concept must have been brought up.

The Sentence: "I think I shall go Outside" Does not necessarily infer the context that my house is on fire, but that could very well be the reason behind it.

And as far as your Assertion that the Strength double toughness is not a property of the weapon, Melee weapon Profiles would like to have a word with you(it is no longer that the model is attack with Properties of the weapon and altering his own str, the model now fights with the weapon lending that weapon his strength).

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Therefore an activated force weapon can not inflict ID, but a demonhammer can as long as the force property is not active.

The context does not discuss an activated Force weapon, in order to infer that context, the concept must have been brought up.

The Sentence: "I think I shall go Outside" Does not necessarily infer the context that my house is on fire, but that could very well be the reason behind it.

And as far as your Assertion that the Strength double toughness is not a property of the weapon, Melee weapon Profiles would like to have a word with you(it is no longer that the model is attack with Properties of the weapon and altering his own str, the model now fights with the weapon lending that weapon his strength).

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

Page 37 disagrees with you. It lists the only way that force weapons inflict ID.