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DR - there is no context outside of "FW". There is no mention of the Force rule, just Force Weapons.

ALL FW can cause ID through activating the Force rule OR through double strength. That is the context. You have no rules support otherwise, because you are literally eignoring the plain written word in place of something you are making up.

You are simply wrong on this, and seemingly are blind to it. There is no point in you restating your position, as no matter how often you repeat it your contention, that "context" only means "FOrce", it will not alter the fact that the context is "Force Weapon", and ALL weapons can cause ID through Strength

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - there is no context outside of "FW". There is no mention of the Force rule, just Force Weapons.

ALL FW can cause ID through activating the Force rule OR through double strength. That is the context. You have no rules support otherwise, because you are literally eignoring the plain written word in place of something you are making up.

You are simply wrong on this, and seemingly are blind to it. There is no point in you restating your position, as no matter how often you repeat it your contention, that "context" only means "FOrce", it will not alter the fact that the context is "Force Weapon", and ALL weapons can cause ID through Strength

Oh now ... quit it ... you are being such a Negative Nancy ... I find it humorous that he keeps bringing up pg. 37 .... and only wants to look there. I have offered the advice of LOOKING at pg. 37 which references pg. 38, which in turn references pg. 16 that equates into ........ wait for it ........ HOW YOU CAN BE ID FROM FORCE RULE AND.................. double toughness.

Since ID is already attached to the NFW (via double toughness) that you need not 'activate' said FW. We all know that Kharn's rule ignores ID from activated ..... no wait scratch that, ANY FW.

Simple 3rd grade English in my book. But I am just a dumb old Ironworker that has to pay attention to detail or else the bridges that you drive on will FALL DOWN.

(I cant read but I look at the pretty pictures and can count all the way to POTATO.

OIIIIIIO wrote:


Simple 3rd grade English in my book. But I am just a dumb old Ironworker that has to pay attention to detail or else the bridges that you drive on will FALL DOWN.

(I cant read but I look at the pretty pictures and can count all the way to POTATO.

Laughed so friggin hard right here.

Humey - your take is a houserule, not based in actual rules.

well, look at page 4 of your rulebook; The Most Important Rule.. seems like you missed something

I play 40k for several years now and always there are debates and disputes because we are driven to win the game.
but isn't the essence of a game that we have fun together? I know we'd all have a great laugh if a grot or a gundrone kills your demon prince in CC!

but the only thing I see here is ten HUGE pages of discussion, where nobody gets an answer...

in my opinion, you should keep that Most Important Rule alive to settle this debate and go on when it is FAQed or someone gets an answer in another way,
but apparently it cannot be solved with just our brains and the book. WELL THEN LET THAT BE! (accept some stupidness inside you, we're not Einsteins )

calm down, get a drink and get gaming, not fighting(leave that to your mini's)

1) Read the tenets of this forum. Done that yet?
2) Learn there is a difference between play and discussion. This forum is a perfect place to discuss things before / after playing games, where you have the leisure to actually examine the written rule and determine what it actually says, not wat you assume it says

You are assuming it is limited to just Force, however the actual rules do not say that. Hence, your method IS a houserule, as there are no actual rules supporting your contention.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) Read the tenets of this forum. Done that yet?
2) Learn there is a difference between play and discussion. This forum is a perfect place to discuss things before / after playing games, where you have the leisure to actually examine the written rule and determine what it actually says, not wat you assume it says

You are assuming it is limited to just Force, however the actual rules do not say that. Hence, your method IS a houserule, as there are no actual rules supporting your contention.

I still don't understand how people can't follow such a simple rule. Theres no wiggle room with this rule....

BEcause a lot of people let their assumptions colour their arguments.

So many people don't read the tenets - TMIR is completely pointless in this forum, as it is the deus ex machina of 40k rules.

OIIIIIIO wrote:
HOW YOU CAN BE ID FROM FORCE RULE AND.................. double toughness.

Str 4? Oh look I'm toughness 2, I'm instant death-ed

RAW states kharn can't be ID from any wound from any force weapon, activated or otherwise. If it really bothers you, spam GW's phones with the question until they FAQ it. Until then, kharn doesn't care.

Lungpickle wrote:
LOL
Theres no need to faq this. As much as it pains me to say it the people who have stated that force is not ID kharn its the ID from str over toughness then he is dead meat. Period since you activate force on an unsaved wound and he was smashed due to str vs toughness force is not needed nor relevant for this argument.
The OP's arguments are silly simply because you refuse to see the futility of your argument when the listed text is right on his entry in the CSM codex. Next time you play grey knights get kharn into a challenge with someone and hope he's not the one with a hammer.
str vs toughness, and force are 2 ways in which you can be instakilled. They are two separate rules entrys and kharns rules only cover one.

its still funny reading the arguments that are for the latter IMHO. Like rowwing a boat upstream with a broke oar.

Kharns rule does not cover the force special rule, it covers ID from force weapons. ANY ID from force weapons.

 juraigamer wrote:

OIIIIIIO wrote:
HOW YOU CAN BE ID FROM FORCE RULE AND.................. double toughness.

Str 4? Oh look I'm toughness 2, I'm instant death-ed

RAW states kharn can't be ID from any wound from any force weapon, activated or otherwise. If it really bothers you, spam GW's phones with the question until they FAQ it. Until then, kharn doesn't care.

Before you quote me and try to be snide .... read what is written in my post. ALL OF IT.

Trust me, I only need to quote what needs to be answered. I dislike quote wars.

As stated, Kharn doesn't care about your force weapons and their ID from either double toughness and/or activation.

 juraigamer wrote:
Trust me, I only need to quote what needs to be answered. I dislike quote wars.

As stated, Kharn doesn't care about your force weapons and their ID from either double toughness and/or activation.

Either you are being obtuse or you genuinely do not read English well. If you read what I posted in its entirety you would comprehend that I have been saying that Kharn's rule ignores ID from FW in ANY way, shape or form.

Read through all ten pages of this thread and you will see that.

It is highly irritating that YOU miscomprehend and are snide about it.

Read what is written ..... then, understand what is written .... all in its entirety. Not that difficult.

So what I gather from the naysayers is that Kharn is immune to all instant death, force or otherwise?, however hes not and eternal warrior and is only tough 4. Blessing of the blood god IS awesome..

Oh wait back to reality from fantasy land. Double str to his toughness still Insta kills him on a failed save period. Force use is a choice by a player to activate and use after there is an unsaved wound and so if a deamon hammer smashes his face in and he is killed from the str of the weapon and not the force activation then he is dead. Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Im baffled by this confussion and if and when it gets faQ'ed you will see your missinterpretation of the rule as it stands. Therte really shouldnt be any confussion now but adley there is.

Erm, nope. Try actually reading the thread again

He is immune to ID CAUSED BY FORCE WEAPONS. Wheter they use Force, or are just strong enough to do it through double strength, if a force weapon causes it he is immune.

"Its not a force weapon till its activated "

Utterly made up. retract it as you have just lied.

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated

The rulebook strongly disagrees with you.
A force weapon is always a force weapon. Using the Force rule doesn't make it a force weapon, it's a force weapon to begin with.

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Citation needed.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Citation needed.

Grey Knights Codex, page 54. "All Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." - at least for daemonhammers.

Lungpickle wrote:
So what I gather from the naysayers is that Kharn is immune to all instant death, force or otherwise?, however hes not and eternal warrior and is only tough 4. Blessing of the blood god IS awesome..
Oh wait back to reality from fantasy land. Double str to his toughness still Insta kills him on a failed save period. Force use is a choice by a player to activate and use after there is an unsaved wound and so if a deamon hammer smashes his face in and he is killed from the str of the weapon and not the force activation then he is dead. Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.
Im baffled by this confussion and if and when it gets faQ'ed you will see your missinterpretation of the rule as it stands. Therte really shouldnt be any confussion now but adley there is.

as has been stated before, his rule is not that he ignores the Force Special Rule
He ignores ID from Force Weapons

A Storm Raven Ignores the Melta Special Rule on a meltagun
A CWE Avatar Ignores all damage from meltaguns
Kharn Ignores ID Force Weapons

Activation or no activation, you're using a Force weapon, and that rule in the codex never says that Daemonhammers aren't force weapons if not activated. The bottom line is, you're using the weapon to ignore Kharn's armor save and strike at S8 or 9 with Hammerhand for the ID rule. So your character is S4/5, the weapon makes your strength into double toughness and it's a Force Weapon, i.e. cannot ID Kharn. Rad grenades+double Hammerhand don't work either, because you need to strike with a non-Force close combat weapon or pistol, which most GK don't have. Although it would be hilarious to see Kharn suffer ID from a pistol whip.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Citation needed.

Grey Knights Codex, page 54. "All Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." - at least for daemonhammers.

That's reinforcing the fact that force weapons are always force weapons, not just when activated.
Not the citation JD was after.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Citation needed.

Grey Knights Codex, page 54. "All Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." - at least for daemonhammers.

That's reinforcing the fact that force weapons are always force weapons, not just when activated.
Not the citation JD was after.

My bad. I misunderstood the initial poster in the quote tree. Derp.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Citation needed.

Grey Knights Codex, page 54. "All Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." - at least for daemonhammers.

That's reinforcing the fact that force weapons are always force weapons, not just when activated.
Not the citation JD was after.

My bad. I misunderstood the initial poster in the quote tree. Derp.

No worries, you're still driving home my point even if it wasn't the asked for citation.
Lungpickle is just in the wrong here. Trying to show why, or at least like to help them out with the right rules. Or figure out what they're looking at wrong.

first off...

this argument has been a right laugh as it just shows how silly using RAW would be in some instances, but as that is the rules here...

Kharn cannot be splattered by the daemon hammer due to the fact it is a force weapon (unusual i my add ) and since ID is also refered to as being doubled out he can safely tell you to sod off

however this is not how some would play it i must point out.

where this has all sprung up is due to the fact that in 5th he would have been spalttered by the str8 hit (no hammerhand included) from the hammer alone- no need to activiate them at all...

really its the nemesis wepon rules that needed re-working i.e they don't count as a force weapon for purpose of ID by strength alone- but count as force weapons when 'activated'

just my humble view

Art_of_war wrote:

really its the nemesis wepon rules that needed re-working i.e they don't count as a force weapon for purpose of ID by strength alone- but count as force weapons when 'activated'

Or Kharn rule needs changing to "Immune to ID from the 'force' USR" ... unless he really is meant to shrug it off.

Art_of_war wrote:

really its the nemesis wepon rules that needed re-working i.e they don't count as a force weapon for purpose of ID by strength alone- but count as force weapons when 'activated'

You do realize all force weapons, are still force weapons even if they're not "activated" including one's like Mephiston, Libby's, Rune Priests, etc.

Which given they wrote the chaos codex in full knowledge that S8 force weapons existed, is hard to claim that the plain written rule isnt what they actually intended

Still waiting on lungpickle to prove that force weapons arent always force weapons. THat was a hilarious mis step....

Art_of_war wrote:
first off...

this argument has been a right laugh as it just shows how silly using RAW would be in some instances, but as that is the rules here...

Kharn cannot be splattered by the daemon hammer due to the fact it is a force weapon (unusual i my add ) and since ID is also refered to as being doubled out he can safely tell you to sod off

however this is not how some would play it i must point out.

where this has all sprung up is due to the fact that in 5th he would have been spalttered by the str8 hit (no hammerhand included) from the hammer alone- no need to activiate them at all...

really its the nemesis wepon rules that needed re-working i.e they don't count as a force weapon for purpose of ID by strength alone- but count as force weapons when 'activated'

just my humble view

the Kharn in 5th came from a completely different codex with very 4th edition codex different rules

Art_of_war wrote:
this argument has been a right laugh as it just shows how silly using RAW would be in some instances, but as that is the rules here...

Kharn cannot be splattered by the daemon hammer due to the fact it is a force weapon (unusual i my add ) and since ID is also refered to as being doubled out he can safely tell you to sod off

Could always just "Forge a Narrative".

"Khorne renders the demonhammer floppy, when it comes in for a killing blow, causing Kharn to only take damage at strength value for purposes of ID"

Khalbrae wrote:
"Khorne renders the demonhammer floppy, when it comes in for a killing blow, causing Kharn to only take damage at strength value for purposes of ID"

More likely ... he looks at the psyker and goes ...
"no Fecking way your going to kill me! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"

A takes their skull for Khorn's glory ... or dies for it. Doesn't really matter so long as some one gets hurt.

< Taken by the void dragon. >