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The problem is GW removing as many restrictions from army building as possible, the 3rd edition Chaos Codex did a great job of representing the various legions, the thing is, now, most of the things that those legions "unlocked" like extra Obliterators and extra Raptors, are just things anyone can take.

Except they also unlocked special rules for certain things in the army, like Iron Legions could buy Tank Hunter, Alpha legion Infiltrate, etc.

And while GW is removing restrictions on specific units, removing flavour and taking a mixed-bag/special character-centric approach FW have taken the alternative viewpoint (in their excellent first HH book) and given us actual sub-sections for Legion rules that contain:

1. Legion-specific special rules.
2. Specialist/unique units for that Legion only and unit modifications that modify the base list.
3. Special characters (that aren't required for the above two things, but often have some rules of their own).

I look at the first HH book and see everything that the new Chaos book could have been. I see a worthy successor to the 3.5 'Dex. I see one of the best books GW has produced since... uhh... the current Ork Codex! I look at this new Dark Angel book and all I can think is "God help us if fielding a Deathwing army requires Belial...".

 pretre wrote:
4+ invul for Sammy In his speeder.

Did I miss this? Dont see it in the book entry. The only thing I can see that has changed for sammy's speeder is that its now a fast skimmer. This would give him a 4+ jink ofc but only when moving 18'' flat out.
Colour me slightly dissapointed =(

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I see a worthy successor to the 3.5 'Dex.

Indeed. Let's pray to all Gods dark and benign, that the GW main-line will never again be plagued by an abomination of that kind. I guess I could live with it if they outsource that kind of humour-less, pretentious and stuck-up style of writing 40K to Forge World, as long as they keep the line with the real game crisper and more distinct.

Please don't. -Mannahnin

 Holy~Heretic wrote:

 pretre wrote:
4+ invul for Sammy In his speeder.

Did I miss this? Dont see it in the book entry. The only thing I can see that has changed for sammy's speeder is that its now a fast skimmer. This would give him a 4+ jink ofc but only when moving 18'' flat out.
Colour me slightly dissapointed =(

His "Night Halo" in the Chapter Relics section is an Iron Halo and further specifies that it grants his Land Speeder a 4+ invuln if he is in it.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I see a worthy successor to the 3.5 'Dex.

Indeed. Let's pray to all Gods dark and benign, that the GW main-line will never again be plagued by an abomination of that kind. I guess I could live with it if they outsource that kind of humour-less, pretentious and stuck-up style of writing 40K to Forge World, as long as they keep the line with the real game crisper and more distinct.

If this is the level of discourse you think is appropriate, why don't you kindly go do it on Warseer, where it'd be welcomed.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:


If this is the level of discourse you think is appropriate, why don't you kindly go do it on Warseer, where it'd be welcomed.

What level would that be?

 Scrollax wrote:
Found this today, its in spanish but the pictures do all the talking. Even has some rules visible for Sammy, bit difficult to read some of the text as picture quality isn't optimal.

http://latabernadelaurana.blogspot.com.es/2012/12/rumores-fotos-de-la-white-dwarf-casi.html

From what i can make out i believe the Ravensword is strength user and AP 2, with a special rule that i can not make out!

Looks like he also comes with Hit and Run, Scout, Skilled rider and a Warlord trait that looks like Rapid Maneuver or Movement.

Sammael is also (finally) an IC. Among other failures of the previous codex, Sammael not being an IC pretty much ruled out ever seeing him riding a jetbike. Too early to tell, but this could make for some interesting combinations.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 Holy~Heretic wrote:

 pretre wrote:
4+ invul for Sammy In his speeder.

Did I miss this? Dont see it in the book entry. The only thing I can see that has changed for sammy's speeder is that its now a fast skimmer. This would give him a 4+ jink ofc but only when moving 18'' flat out.
Colour me slightly dissapointed =(

His "Night Halo" in the Chapter Relics section is an Iron Halo and further specifies that it grants his Land Speeder a 4+ invuln if he is in it.

Ahh I did miss it, thanks.

 warboss wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Super Deathwing and Super Ravenwing added to yet another niche loyalist codex while CSM codex (covering 9 legions) is stale as it's ever been.

Yay Marines!

It's not as stale as that complaint. Chaos Marine Legions have never had independent books whereas loyalist have had them since for almost 20 years. If you haven't gotten used to that by now, you need to find another game.

The problem is Chaos still can't take rubric/sonic/plague marine terminators, yet a single company from a single chapter apparently needs 3 different units of terminators (some of them newly created out of whole cloth) to fill up their codex.

And make no mistake - if said rubric/sonic/plague marine terminators had gotten a plastic kit we would have seen rules for them. If cultists had gotten a multipart plastic kit they would have had better rules with more options than just stubber/flamer/shotgun for the champ. But we didn't get those kits because those resources were being devoted to creating all-new deathwing knights and legless super landspeeders that didn't need to exist.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 warboss wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Super Deathwing and Super Ravenwing added to yet another niche loyalist codex while CSM codex (covering 9 legions) is stale as it's ever been.

Yay Marines!

It's not as stale as that complaint. Chaos Marine Legions have never had independent books whereas loyalist have had them since for almost 20 years. If you haven't gotten used to that by now, you need to find another game.

The problem is Chaos still can't take rubric/sonic/plague marine terminators, yet a single company from a single chapter apparently needs 3 different units of terminators (some of them newly created out of whole cloth) to fill up their codex.

Yeah, the state of Chaos force options gets more and more pathetic with every new SM codex.

This is a Dark Angel rumor thread and not a chaos complaint one. Feel free to start another thread to lament what had always been and likely always will be the special treatment loyalist marines get instead of derailing this one.

Sammael on jetbike could work OK even when not an independent character... I ran 30 kroot and a Shas'el off the board with him in CC, even though they got the charge (he did make a ridiculous number of armour saves...).

Is there any confirmation if we will have to take Belial to use DW as troops? I know the Knights are Elites but are regular DW terminators?

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Is there any confirmation if we will have to take Belial to use DW as troops? I know the Knights are Elites but are regular DW terminators?

DW terminators are in the Elite section of the army list. It may take Belial, or it may be a rule for Terminator armored commanders. We don't have the HQ army list pages yet.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Is there any confirmation if we will have to take Belial to use DW as troops? I know the Knights are Elites but are regular DW terminators?

The pics from Espana had a "elite" page.
Including company veterans, deathwing termies, deathwing knights and the dread.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sjHpihzKm54/UN95c_nQ_oI/AAAAAAAAEJ4/BCjK4hEkDjw/s1600/553796_406855029385413_706830458_n.jpg

Alfhedil wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Super Deathwing and Super Ravenwing added to yet another niche loyalist codex while CSM codex (covering 9 legions) is stale as it's ever been.

Yay Marines!

I'm curious if you've even seen the new CSM codex, seeing how there is quite a difference between the last one and the now current one. Contrary to the constant murmuring of those anti-GW people who still buy GW anyways, GW has been improving significantly in many areas since I came into the hobby. The proof is in the quality of their plastic sculpts such as the Terminators and the remastered StormTalon, although the ChurchTalon and ChurchSpeeder Vengeance are awful and they should be ashamed.

No its not, they got:

Raptors with lightning claws, boring unit nobody uses
Obliterators with CC weapons that nobody will use
A flyer, like everybody does
The Forgefiends are cool

All of the rest of the units are almost exactly the same. Marks still do very little. No new cult troops, no legion rules. No upgrades for vehicles to make them anything but Vanilla SM vehicles + spikes. I've been waiting for a decade for them to get a new version of a Predator, Land Raider, or something other than demon engines that all fulfill the same role (Forge fiends and Defilers do the same exact thing). Still lame Demon rules. Cultist introduction is nice but they're still pretty boring. A joke of a codex, actually made me quit 40k for awhile.

Thanks for the reply guys. I hope that just a regular TA commander will unlock them like in the old days. Here's hoping.

Well... we still don't know if Belial will be required to field a Deathwing Army. In the Chaos 'dex we have seen that Lords with a certain mark unlocks cult troops so why can't we expect that you can make "deathwing" characters? If I understood it correctly there is a special rule called "deathwing". Maybe Characters buying this rule unlocks troop terminators.

 punkow wrote:
Well... we still don't know if Belial will be required to field a Deathwing Army. In the Chaos 'dex we have seen that Lords with a certain mark unlocks cult troops so why can't we expect that you can make "deathwing" characters? If I understood it correctly there is a special rule called "deathwing". Maybe Characters buying this rule unlocks troop terminators.

But what character would that be? It be kinda odd if you could take a 'Captain', give him the 'Deathwing rule', but he ain't Belial?

With Chaos, you've got to cover a whole lot of warbands, legions, armies, etc.. .

Deathwing literally is just those 100 guys. And their Captain happens to be Belial. If it's a bunch of (scoring) Terminators without Belial, it wouldn't be the Deathwing.

Well.... first, DA aren't the only chapter with a full Termie 1st company: Also their successor chapters are able to field huge amounts of termies, and there is no reason for them to have a captain the same as Belial.
Second, Belial is the master NOW, while we should be able to represent also previous 1st company masters (Guys like Eldrad, fellow DA Naaman ex. are actually dead but still have rules )

Allowing a Character to buy the Deathwng rule (?) would allow Deathwing Chaplain? Deathwing Librarian? To field a DW army correct?

Even then, A Deathwing "Captain" could also be used to represent a Veteran Sergeant who, for the duration of the battle, have command over the forces placed under him (including other members of the Deathwing)

 punkow wrote:
Well.... first, DA aren't the only chapter with a full Termie 1st company: Also their successor chapters are able to field huge amounts of termies, and there is no reason for them to have a captain the same as Belial.

But they are not 'Deathwing', so unlocking Terminator formations with a 'Deathwing-rule' meant to cover precisely those that are not Deathwing would still be odd.

 punkow wrote:

Second, Belial is the master NOW, while we should be able to represent also previous 1st company masters (Guys like Eldrad, fellow DA Naaman ex. are actually dead but still have rules )

That is, in many ways, the inverse. Yes, Eldrad is dead. But he his an iconic and highly representative character, so he is "in" anyhow. Yours would be more or less the inverse. The wish to move away from the "iconic Deathwing" to a more non-de-script time period.

what's the problem with Belial???

if he only comes with standard weapons, i can see where some people would like a different loadout...
if he comes with options in the Codex, then he is a man for all seasons...
is it just that he is a special character, too pricey, ugly model, what???

cheers
jah

There is no problem with Belial, its just that some people don't want to play using the current master of the Deathwing and so they would like rules that would allow a generic company master to unlock them as troops to represent a previous (or future) Master of the Deathwing.

 jah-joshua wrote:
what's the problem with Belial???

if he only comes with standard weapons, i can see where some people would like a different loadout...
if he comes with options in the Codex, then he is a man for all seasons...
is it just that he is a special character, too pricey, ugly model, what???

cheers
jah

I think most of the issue is being FORCED to take him, no mater how good or bad he is, its the choice people are wanting.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 punkow wrote:
Well.... first, DA aren't the only chapter with a full Termie 1st company: Also their successor chapters are able to field huge amounts of termies, and there is no reason for them to have a captain the same as Belial.

But they are not 'Deathwing', so unlocking Terminator formations with a 'Deathwing-rule' meant to cover precisely those that are not Deathwing would still be odd.

They aren't Deathwing in name, but functionally, they are a formation identical to the Deathwing which has no reason to necessarily be fielded alongside Belial.

It's reason enough that you should be able to field Terminators as troops without selecting Belial, which is the core issue, not some theorized "deathwing" rule which probably doesn't exist, and how suitable that name is for the task.

It does prevent non-dw lists from taking scoring terminators which is probably good for balancing