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Prism962 wrote:
We know that large portions of the human brain arent utilized.

Every last part of the human brain is in use. The whole 'we only use 10% of our brain' thing is a myth.

... Experience doesnt help much if its against a brand new enemy and brand new weaponry. Yes it will help but against a brand new opponent that you have absolutely no experience to then it doesnt really help you that much

willhman wrote:
... Experience doesnt help much if its against a brand new enemy and brand new weaponry. Yes it will help but against a brand new opponent that you have absolutely no experience to then it doesnt really help you that much

So a war veteran and I each get to go toe to toe with a Hormagaunt.

My money is on the War veteran.

Yes and the Hormagaunt isnt a trained opponent, its a animal by all respects. Look experience will help but against a new opponent who is skilled just as well wont help that much.

How would casualty rates apply to this discussion? Spartan IIs are deadly, yes, but they also took extremely heavy casualties in nearly every engagement against the Covenant.

Additionally, are we discussion marines and spartans fighting in cohesive forces, or in Lone Wolf engagements? How would marine casualties stack up in engagements?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I think it's a hard one, because both versions, Marine and Spartan, have been blown way out of proportion in different ways- Marines in the durability and aggression angle, and Spartans in the way that they are basically given superhero-level abilities.

I personally think a Space marine could win over a Spartan, especially if they have all their enhanced organs functioning. Because taken together, they are about the same qualities naked, but a fully-functioning marine can spit acid, eat his enemies to gain their basic memories, go into suspended animation, shut off parts of his brain at a time to purportedly go without sleep for weeks, etc.

But then again, Spartans, especially John, seem to have less and less weaknesses as the story goes on.

This might not be a good example, especially for this would weigh in favor of the Space Marine singularly in this example, im not sure how the Spartan would act in this case. If some one has an example of this for a Spartan please post.

Anyways, While Commissar Ciaphas Cain was traveling on a Space Marine Battle Barge trying to catch a Space Hulk infested w/ Genestealers; He was practicing with the Reclaimers' Techmarine assigned to the task force (done out of great respect this particular Space Marine had for the man). Cain was trying his best to break through the defense of the Space Marine, and even though the Techmarine was holding back (and a lot based on textual evidence IIRC) he couldn't land any of his blows on the Techmarine (except a lucky break). Granted that Cain is very very skilled in CC (he had earlier sliced 2/3 Purestrain Genestealers (whose claws make TDA look like paper later in the book) in a cramped Sewer).

This would put Space Marines on par with the Spartans in reflexes and quickness in close combat, something that usually the Spartan dominates in these kinds of discussions.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
How would casualty rates apply to this discussion? Spartan IIs are deadly, yes, but they also took extremely heavy casualties in nearly every engagement against the Covenant.

What. No.

You're thinking of Spartan III's.

The only massive loss of Spartan II's was on Reach, and that was largely due to glassing. But this isn't a comparison of Spartans Vs. Orbital bombardments, so that is irrelevant.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
How would casualty rates apply to this discussion? Spartan IIs are deadly, yes, but they also took extremely heavy casualties in nearly every engagement against the Covenant.

Additionally, are we discussion marines and spartans fighting in cohesive forces, or in Lone Wolf engagements? How would marine casualties stack up in engagements?

Or to look at it the other way: The SII's took less than 40 casualties in three decades of constant combat. The Dark Angels took 200 casualties (against humans, I might add) in a matter of days on Vraks.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
How would casualty rates apply to this discussion? Spartan IIs are deadly, yes, but they also took extremely heavy casualties in nearly every engagement against the Covenant.

Additionally, are we discussion marines and spartans fighting in cohesive forces, or in Lone Wolf engagements? How would marine casualties stack up in engagements?

Or to look at it the other way: The SII's took less than 40 casualties in three decades of constant combat. The Dark Angels took 200 casualties (against humans, I might add) in a matter of days on Vraks.

But if we look at %s that puts the Space Marines ahead. The Covenant would only be a minor annoyance to the Imperium, let alone an entire chapter.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
How would casualty rates apply to this discussion? Spartan IIs are deadly, yes, but they also took extremely heavy casualties in nearly every engagement against the Covenant.

Additionally, are we discussion marines and spartans fighting in cohesive forces, or in Lone Wolf engagements? How would marine casualties stack up in engagements?

Or to look at it the other way: The SII's took less than 40 casualties in three decades of constant combat. The Dark Angels took 200 casualties (against humans, I might add) in a matter of days on Vraks.

There were also only a handful of SIIs. The first batch had only 37 (I think) operational SIIs, with the second batch being unknown in number. Compared to roughly one million Space Marines, many of which live for upwards of one hundred years in constant combat.

In a numbers game, every loss that the Spartans takes hurts them more than it does the Space Marines. They don't have the capacity for reinforcing fast enough. And their successor programs focused on quantity over quality, with Spartan IIIs being augmented cannon fodder, and the SIVs being half rate SIIs.

 Kaldor wrote:

Prism962 wrote:
We know that large portions of the human brain arent utilized.

Every last part of the human brain is in use. The whole 'we only use 10% of our brain' thing is a myth.

I should have phrased that more clear. While the majority of our brain is used. Much of it isn't applied with cognitive function such as thinking ng. Every part of our brain is used throughout the day. But conscious thought is relatively poorly used if I recall. I'll hunt down a medical article tommorow but for now im to lazy.

Yeah, it gets used but not to full capacity. Which really has more to do with how the brain learns things. Learned thought processes become so ingrained they can be a hindrence. If a person's brain could get "Defragged" they would be a more efficient thinker.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, it gets used but not to full capacity. Which really has more to do with how the brain learns things. Learned thought processes become so ingrained they can be a hindrence. If a person's brain could get "Defragged" they would be a more efficient thinker.

I imagine going over it with a whisk would be quite painful...

Lysit wrote:
In the Eisenhorn books the Arbites make use of Landspeeders quite often.

Citation please.

Of course I'll note that Eisenhorn IIRC predates the fluff that states that only the Astartes, of any wing in the military, make use of Landspeeders.

In the Abnetverse, everyone rides around on speeders (they can be rented by anyone), because his version of 40K is a much brighter, happier place.

 Kaldor wrote:
A Spartan also has increased muscle strength. As much as an Astartes.

Prove this statement.

A list of spartan augments can be found here. http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures( this leaves out some implants such as neural boosters. I am unsure why they split them up in the wiki)


do keep in mind the settings involved. A Sm transported to the Halo verse is limited like everyone else, while a Spartan in 40k has the same ability to go gonzo super hero as everyone else as well. It is an often ignored issue with corssovers.

Wow, you are so desperately clinging to those augmentation lists, it's both funny and sad. Actual feats are far more relevant to the comparison; "increased strength" is far too vague.

No, he asked. I just showed the list. It also gives numbers below, which honestly is below a Sm. It lists 3 times body weight as over head lift being standard, with some lifting more. I would say it is more in armor, but we do not know how much more. It also give the standard unarmed ground speed of a spartan as 55 kph, more in the armor.

feats really do not come into this. What the base unit can do, Nothing else.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
A list of spartan augments can be found here. http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures( this leaves out some implants such as neural boosters. I am unsure why they split them up in the wiki)

"Alteration of bioeletrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. 300% increase in subject reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity."

ah, I see, when I was reading the posts, I misread 300% as 300x.

That isn't nearly enough of a difference in reaction-time between a human being and a Spartan to be a gamebreaker, even assuming Space Marines do not have enhanced reflexes (They do). Though interestingly, that contradicts the listed reaction-time of twenty milliseconds, which is five times faster than what I've heard is the peak biological limit of humans, much less average (The former is 100 milliseconds, latter 250).

When do the Spartans receive the augmentation to enhance their reflexes?

Also, on the note of Space Marine mass vs. Spartan mass: John is 6'10" and 400 pounds, and IIRC described as about average in height and build by Spartan standards. While not much shorter than a Marine, there is a full three hundred pound difference between the two in weight, per the Deathwatch core rulebook, where Marines are nearly seven hundred pounds without their armour. In terms of sheer mass, the Marine has the advantage.

Strength?

The Spartan can apparently lift three times their body weight, whether just off the ground or over their head it does not say, but I will be charitable and assume it is over their head. This would mean they could lift, going by John's numbers, 1,200 pounds, maybe up to a ton. Superhuman absolutely, but how does this really compare to a Marine?

This is admittedly a hard question to answer, largely due to the fact that a Space Marine is almost never not fighting without their strength-enhancing (But not by that signifigant an amount) armour, nor are they given a strength limit. The best I can manage at six in the morning is that, according to the 40k RPGs, the average Marine with a combined Strength and Toughness bonus of 16, could lift 1,350 kg. Aka, about 1.5 tons. Over twice that of a Spartan.

do keep in mind the settings involved. A Sm transported to the Halo verse is limited like everyone else, while a Spartan in 40k has the same ability to go gonzo super hero as everyone else as well. It is an often ignored issue with corssovers.

It is ignored because it's fething nonsensical. If you're elevating one being (the Spartan) and limiting another (The Space Marine), as per your analogy, then this isn't "40k Space Marine vs. Halo Spartan", it is "Theoretical Halo Space Marine vs. Theoretical 40k Spartan", versus battles featuring beings from different IPs must be assumed to take place in a neutral setting, where the combatants have all of their own abilities, and only their own abilities.

I mean, really... This reminds me of the time I found myself stuck in a Bruce Lee vs. Batman h2h debate (Don't ask, I'm not the cretin who made the thread, and it was in a fairly close-knit forum of friends and acquaintances, so I couldn't really avoid it), and someone tried to pass the bull idea that we should arbitrarily lower Batman's capabilities to Bruce Lee's level, because Bruce Lee is constrained to IRL laws and limits, and Batman is not. Well no gak, that's why in this nerdy ass hypothetical battle between a piece of paper and Bruce Lee, Lee gets his ass beat.

Anyway, holy feth, I just stayed up til six to talk about two space men beating eachother up, I'm going to bed.

I am so glad I am not the only one that screw up quote blocks from time to time.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

"Alteration of bioeletrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. 300% increase in subject reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity.["

ah, I see, when I was reading the posts, I misread 300% as 300x.

That isn't nearly enough of a difference in reaction-time between a human being and a Spartan to be a gamebreaker, even assuming Space Marines do not have enhanced reflexes (They do). Though interestingly, that contradicts the listed reaction-time of twenty milliseconds, which is five times faster than what I've heard is the peak biological limit of humans, much less average (The former is 100 milliseconds, latter 250).
When do the Spartans receive the augmentation to enhance their reflexes?

If you notice that was the normal at rest speed, Not combat speed. I am gonna disagree and give the speed to the spartan, I still am not seeing any reflex boots on the Sm other then just muscle changes and training. On age its been a while sense I read reach, but, mid teens maybe. To me and most people Str and size are a given to the SM, just not speed and reflexes, they are behind a long way there.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

It is ignored because it's fething nonsensical. If you're elevating one being (the Spartan) and limiting another (The Space Marine), as per your analogy, then this isn't "40k Space Marine vs. Halo Spartan", it is "Theoretical Halo Space Marine vs. Theoretical 40k Spartan", versus battles featuring beings from different IPs must be assumed to take place in a neutral setting, where the combatants have all of their own abilities, and only their own abilities.

Not at all, turn Spartans loose in 40k and they could pull off the same off the wall feats as most named SM guys. The Master chief would be scary with 40k's setting lets call it "energy" behind him. What you do is you take out the OTT stuff and end up with a standard Sm. This does not lower the Sm, because lets be honest they are badasses not counting the OTT 40k oddities. It is the issue with not power level but setting "laws" in 40k mere humans can do things most settings would call super human, what you guys call feats. So either eveyone ets the setting boots or no one does as if these two fought, one or the other would have to crossover.

I am saying what I have the whole time, outside armor in a brawl as the OP stated the loser is the fist one to make a mistake, the Sm has the power and reach the spartan has the speed.

Also..Batman, Batman always wins..vs everyone.

 Omegus wrote:
There is also nothing in that list that would grant them eidetic memory, yet they all have it. So where do we draw the line? Do we just use enhancement lists, do we use feats, do we use games?

Actually we use graphic novels to show that.

Blood Angels Captain Leonatos from "Bloodquest". He was able to exorcise daemon from him and order the Chaos fleet to go into an Imperial trap, after witch he erased that part of memory from his brain so when daemon returned to his body he would have no idea what he has done.

The quote itself:
"Another unique Space Marine gift, an alteration in brain chemistry, allowing them to erase information from their own memories, in the event of their capture by the enemy.

The daemon, when returns, will know nothing of what he has done."

Now, if their brain is so altered that enables them to do that I don't see why they cannot have eidetic memory?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Lysit wrote:
In the Eisenhorn books the Arbites make use of Landspeeders quite often.

Citation please.

A squirt of sirens warbled down the main street and Nayl pulled me into an alley-end. A black armoured land speeder with blazing
grilled lamps crept past.
I saw the crest motif of the mainhive arbites on the side and an armoured officer sat in the top hatch manipulating a spotlight.
The beam played across us and passed along. Another flute of siren-noise sounded and we heard a vox-amplified voice demand,
'Idents and papers, you five. Now!'

From page 163 of the ebook. Its worth noting that Eisenhorn's pilot (Betancore) pilots one a various times and Eisenhorn himself does in pursuit of an inquisitor/daemon host. There might be more but im just over half way through the omnibus.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Of course I'll note that Eisenhorn IIRC predates the fluff that states that only the Astartes, of any wing in the military, make use of Landspeeders.

Citation please. Certainly the farseer book (http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/Farseer-Print-on-Demand.html) has an imperial world filled with anti-grav cars in common use (not speeders). I find it strange the imperium seems to have lost alot of use for them on the battlefield or has this general mistrust of them when all you have to do is read a black library book and anti-grav is everywhere.
(And no, Farseer isn't worth reading).

 Omegus wrote:
Wow, you are so desperately clinging to those augmentation lists, it's both funny and sad. Actual feats are far more relevant to the comparison; "increased strength" is far too vague.

"Feats" will always be events of luck, overexertion, chance, or some other overextension of oneself.

Feats are outliers, and outliers aren't worth anything in a valid comparison.

Not true at all, many of the instances of super-human reaction rates cited in this thread are par for the course, normal actions.

You're grasping at ever-dwindling straws.

I just caught up in this thread, and my brain hurts.

Let me get this straight, the support for the Spartan is currently "anything a marine can do a Spartan can do faster, no matter what, because Spartan's have 300% reaction time."

Yeah, no. space marines regularly demonstrate reaction speed superior to a 300% increase, this does not automatically mean that if a space marine can catch a bullet that a Spartan can catch three.

The Spartan's 300% increase is not relevant at all to the mehreen, who sorry to burst your bubble, is neurologically augmented beyond just the organs that are placed in them.

Which Organ increases their height again? And which one fuses their rib cages? These are changes made to Astartes, which organs cause them?

Whether it's via training, hypnosis, augmentation, or sheer marine badassery, for some reason Marines are consistantly superhuman in terms of reaction time. This is indisputable, it's not an outlier, it's frequently referred to, and the fiction over and over represents it .

Is a Spartan 300% faster than Batman in reaction time, because Batman has no neurological augments?

I'm trying to find the quote but if anyone has "Emperor's mercy" on hand could give me hand, the marine is chasing a vehicle moving at 60mph+ and gaining on them (increasing speed to match the moving vehicle). so my earlier statement of ~40 mph is overuled, unless its 60+ Kph it still stands.
In another BL book a space marine (unnamed or named I do not know), is seen picking up a Imperium MBT and throwing it. Seeing as it probably leman russ which weighs 60 metric tons that puts the strength of a SM pretty dang high.

now before we go back to the "deathwatch" says this, cant this also happen in the deathwatch game?

"For maximum Deathwatch strength output - roll 50 for strength and toughness. Buy all the available upgrades taking you to 70 in both. With Unnatural Characteristics the characteristic bonus is doubled to 14 in both.

Wear Terminator armour with the Strength of Legend armour history for + 40 strength.

Use the Feat of Strength solo mode ability (rank 7+ version), increasing your Strength Bonus multiplyer to *4.

So, our Marine is now putting out a value on the lifting table of

28 (SB) + 14 (TB) + 4 (armour) = 46

Now, the table only goes up to 20. The values on the table were obviously hand picked without resort to any kind of formula, but Carry Weight = 2.58 * 1.42^(SB+TB+Armour Strength) is a close approximation. Lifting weight is twice that.

Plugging in the numbers we see that the Marine can carry 26114 tons and lift 52229 tons. So he could pick up a battleship the size of the Bismark.

:-) "

 Ninjacommando wrote:

In another BL book a space marine (unnamed or named I do not know), is seen picking up a Imperium MBT and throwing it.

LMAO....

You must find me the quote to read it, it's just to unbelievable even for me.
I know that Marine can lift a Sentinel with no problem, maybe even Chimera - but Russ?

EDIT: Russ is 60 tons heavy ( IA 1 ).

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
How would casualty rates apply to this discussion? Spartan IIs are deadly, yes, but they also took extremely heavy casualties in nearly every engagement against the Covenant.

Additionally, are we discussion marines and spartans fighting in cohesive forces, or in Lone Wolf engagements? How would marine casualties stack up in engagements?

In 27 years of service only something like 3 Spartan II were ever KIA and one critically injued before the Battle of Reach. (I just looked it up, thats right)

You dont know what you are talking about I hate to say it.

This was also supose to be even numbers. I got the impression 1 on 1 but 4 on 4 works just as well.



Every time I come back this topic is more and more of a mess. Im starting to think we should just call it quits

A marine throwing a tank isn't all that hard to believe, lol. They rip off hatches and gak made of WK40k's super strong future metals, gak like that takes a lot more strength than lifting a tank. Throwing it maybe, too, depending how far/fast it was thrown.

Regardless, the marine is certainly physically stronger.