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What do I give a 5 man vanguard veteran squad weapons wise?

a nice place on the shelf while you use more competitive units. They are just too expensive IMO to be used, they need alot of points dumped into them to make them good.

atleast if they came with jump packs i could see using them.

The problem with vanguards is giving them enough gear to do their job, while keeping them from being a point sink. And they start off pretty expensive.

I don't use them, so can't give any advice backed by experience. I'd probably run with 2-3 power weapons, of different types, and maybe a guy with a storm shield to take point. More practically, I'd probably just model them up to look cool, and run them as is. If you are going to be fielding a overpriced unit, might as well just accept it and look awesome, regardless of points. There are a lot of things I need to add to my army before I get to the point where I'm going to experiment with VVs. If we get a new codex and things change, I might re-evaluate their positing on my things to buy list.

You should give the vanguard the boot. They are very, very overpriced and can't even be joined by an IC. Furthermore, they have a hard time even doing their job against a distributed list.

With my Blood Angels, I gave the sergeant a thunder hammer (which I'm regretting already) and 2 guys got storm shields (which also suck now). Really, if I were modelling a new squad, the sergeant would have a power fist and the other four would just have meltabombs. Drop, multiassault vehicles or Rifleman dreads, get counterattacked away to buy the Death Company time to get to grips with the enemy.

I liked doing 5 with jump packs, 2 power sword, and sergeant with dual lightnig claws. Maybe if your feeling saucy give one of them a storm shield. The only problem is that's like almost 300 points for 5 models.


Edit:Actually with the deep strike mishap chart being so forgiving in 6th I think I might try a squad of these guys again.

300 pts for 5 models that are T4 W1 is untenable in 6th edition, or even 5th really.

So a squad of 5 with jump packs, and 12 power weapon attacks on the charge 4 retooling to wound with 2 storm shields that can can out of deep strike is so attractive. The squad costs 250.

Drop the vets, if you want elite jump troops that cost slightly less take Sanguinary guard with 5 plasma pistols and one fist.

My codex doesn't have sang guard ;(

I assume you are playing codex marines ? Assault should be done by assault termies with some one like Lysander attached. Or you could make BA allies and take some death co also.

If you're not playing Blood Angels, the scatter makes Vanguards far too unreliable to bother with. For Codex Marines, take a bike command squad and call it a day.

Yeah I'm using blood angels so d6 scatter and the models came with jumppacks but since they are to pricey I might turn them into an assault squad or DC

They don't seem worth it in an all comers list. Though there are some scenarios where you'd love to have them.

With the chances of seeing a lot of local players start up the "Super stealth salvo Ravenwing" list my brother is going to be adding some into his list to get the jump on Black Knight units.

We'll see if it ends up being worth it.

I turned my vanguard vets into assault marines.

DC are no better.

Martel732 wrote:
DC are no better.

I strongly disagree with that statement.

You can disagree all you like, but DC are not good. The best configuration requires a 250 point delivery system. You can try the drop pod thing, but after it lands, they are footslogging. And gives your opponent the chance for a spoiling attack. And DC look really stupid if they get assaulted. Especially if you gave them bolters.

I have been thinking about Vanguard vets the last day or two in Codex: BA, their biggest problem is just that they have so much competition in the codex. I'll just list the comparative jump units(all with jump pack):

(HQ) Honour guard: expensive, but they come with a free sanguinary noviate. Lots of options, so very flexible. Can be used as a melta platform with lots of firepower when they deepstrike, and they give their bonus to other units.

(Elite) Sanguinary guard: Good saves and combat ability, but very expensive. Can also get quite a few upgrades. Very vulnerable to plasma! Can be scoring with Dante.

(Troop) Assault squad: Affordable and scoring. Benefit well from characters with jump packs (Special chars, Captain, Reclusiarch, Librarian, Sanguinary priest etc.) Should be a 10 man unit if possible.

(Troop) Death company: Expensive, but extremely hard hitting, especially with a chaplain/reclusiarch. Keep them cheap w. 1-2 power weapons and they will destroy everything they touch, especially if they have a chaplain. Come with built in priest abilities, so can operate separately from the rest of the army very well. Should be kept around 5 man strong, otherwise it's too expensive.

(Fast attack) Vanguard veterans: Very expensive, but not very well equipped when stock. Can occationally be scoring. Can assault from deepstrike, so a PF/TH is a must if facing vehicles. Can tie up units to avoid the otherwise almost unavoidable round of shooting when they deepstrike. If they have that option, they can make one hell of a distraction in the opponents backfield. Should always be kept 5 man strong, as lager numbers is actually a drawback.

Overall I'd say that a standard 10 man assault squad is the most versatile jump unit when playing a BA army, but I can see the point of a 5 man Vanguard veteran unit. If they kill an expensive vehicle when they deepstrike, they have earned their points back, perhaps even saving one of the other deepstriking units in the process. If no vehicles are available to assault, assaulting a unit they would have a hard time killing in one round of close combat would actually be preferrable, as it would save them completely from shooting.

Martel732 wrote:
You can disagree all you like, but DC are not good. The best configuration requires a 250 point delivery system. You can try the drop pod thing, but after it lands, they are footslogging. And gives your opponent the chance for a spoiling attack. And DC look really stupid if they get assaulted. Especially if you gave them bolters.

I have tried the "drop pod thing" many times and never had an issue. Perhaps if you knew how to place them better you would not think so little. I have never had an issue with mine not wiping out enemy units, even terminators, and earning more than their points back. Giving them jump packs is a big mistake.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can disagree all you like, but DC are not good. The best configuration requires a 250 point delivery system. You can try the drop pod thing, but after it lands, they are footslogging. And gives your opponent the chance for a spoiling attack. And DC look really stupid if they get assaulted. Especially if you gave them bolters.

I have tried the "drop pod thing" many times and never had an issue. Perhaps if you knew how to place them better you would not think so little. I have never had an issue with mine not wiping out enemy units, even terminators, and earning more than their points back. Giving them jump packs is a big mistake.

I can't do much if your opponents don't know how to respond. The "dead turn" after the DC come down and can't assault is very, very bad. It's very difficult to put them in a good assault position that is not vulnerable to shooting/counter attacking. Spoiling attacks make the DC very, very inefficient and using a drop pod is asking for a spoiling attack.

DC die just as easly as normle Assault marines, but cost alot more for them, I dont see them being worth the points. I play agenst BA and the guy always uses DC kitted out with jump packs a thunder hammer and pw weapons
I just easly shoot him down every time.

They are just too expensive

The BA main problem is not "competition" in the codex. It's the lack of competitive units. It's the fact that the codex tempts people to field armies with crappy model counts to employ strategies that don't work in 6th edition.

You need bodies and/or metal bawkses to survive the offensive shooting output of so many lists in 6th. The BA can not physically afford the body count depletion from vanguard on top of the premiums they are already paying like sanguinary priests, etc.

The vanguard might let you go tie up some douche bag shooter unit. Might even kill them. So what? They are going to be counter assaulted or shot off the table the next turn. And they might scatter out range anyway. And they take overwatch. It's a cool visual, I admit, but terrible for the points.

I agree a lot on the model count issue. I'm used to playin IG, and I think the BA units I intend to run as allies get dangerously low on models despite being expensive points wise. I can't believe that I have to pay more than 700 points just to bring a JP honor guard squad, a 5 man Assault squad, 5 man JP Death company squad and a reclusiarch to the table. They are going to destroy anything they touch, but it's not guaranteed that they will ever make it into close combat. Keep in mind that I don't play in a "hard" nelist environment. We have an army selection system that discourages duplicates of units, transport spam, and Terminator spam, so they might have a chane to survive, I just haven't tried out the BA allies yet and was voicing my concerns.

Low model count armies can be torn up by non-spam lists in 6th edition.

Blood angels will be better though when their hardcover codex comes out

Sabreguy wrote:
Blood angels will be better though when their hardcover codex comes out

Which will take years.

I see too much concentration on Vanguard as a dedicated assault unit...all Codexes with them have better options for that. They are only worthwhile as a distraction and interruption unit - use them aggressively and drop right into an enemy squad or two that puts out lots of fire, and charge. If you survive the first round of combat (likely against the likes of Long Fangs, Havocs, Guard HWTs) you prevent that unit from firing next turn, possibly at all. You might also find your opponent diverts other units to deal with them.

As they're pretty much sacrificial, you want to keep them cheap. I use mine with one fist and the Sergeants "free" power weapon, kept down to 5 men, for the princely sum of 190 points...not too bad. Unless you're using BA you do have to consider the risk of scatter leaving you out of charge range though.

Vanguard fool you with trickery and the false promise of shiny wargear options.

As a certain squid headed admiral would say, "It's a trap!"

5 men with minimal options as a distraction unit or to tie up lone shooty units in the backfield is really the only semi-efficient way to use them.

Yeah, it would probably be best just to give them a cheap PF on the Sarge, and then melta bombs on the other guys. This way they are cheap and can kill almost all vehicles the turn they arrive. They would also kill their way though a devastator or loota squad quite easily, here it would be an advantage of actually asaulting a max size squad to get a chance of staying in close combat during the enemy turn.