Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It's giving me a headache trying to conceive of using these rules with multiple Infantry Squads, with the Sgts pistol, the Guardsman's lasgun, the Special Weapon, and the Heavy Weapon. Just whining. I'll stop now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, you only have to work out ANY of the shooting models are in range. Hence "ANY" and "Shooting Models"

If ONE model is in range to all of the enemy, you can kill all of the enemy

Yes, but you have to check every single one of your firing models to determine who can reach the farthest enemy model.

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

FenixZero wrote:
No, it says that for wounds in the wound pool 'when To Hit rolls were made'. You don't make 'To Hit' rolls with Templates, as such it is exempt from the new FAQ ruling.

First off, you're aware that this argument only even begins to work if the firing unit consists entirely of flame template weapons? Because, if even a single to-hit roll is made, then there was a time when to-hit rolls were made, and it doesn't matter whether a given weapon actually rolled to-hit or not.

...Furthermore, there is a time when to-hit rolls are made even when no actual to-hit rolls are made, i.e. there is a defined time in the firing sequence when you would make your zero to-hit rolls for your all-template unit, which arguably means your position doesn't even work for all-template firing anyway. (Plus, it's silly and ridiculous, but eh, this is a rules forum, so that's kind of not entirely relevant.)

I'm still not understanding how having a missile launcher allows bolters to wound deeper than 24". The FAQ says model not unit.

The FAQ says "any of the shooting models' range". That clearly includes the one missile launcher.

Seems that the confusion arises from not playing it raw in the first place.

Previously a bolter could wound upto an infinite range as long as one enemy model from the target unit was within 24".
Now it can only wound up to range of the longest range model in the unit.

Note that being able to wound is not the same as being able to shoot and shooting range is still done on a model by model basis.

Olcottr - no you dont, as the ones in the middle with the same range weapons will be further away then ones further forward.

Think of it this way: To determine which of your models can fire, you only determine if the distance to the enemy unit (closest enemy model) is within range of their weapon. Easy.

To determine which enemy model can be wounded, you have to check the distance to every one of your firing models to see if any are in range. Not so easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Olcottr - no you dont, as the ones in the middle with the same range weapons will be further away then ones further forward.

Units with only one range of weapon are fairly rare.

olcottr wrote:
Think of it this way: To determine which of your models can fire, you only determine if the distance to the enemy unit (closest enemy model) is within range of their weapon. Easy.

To determine which enemy model can be wounded, you have to check the distance to every one of your firing models to see if any are in range. Not so easy.

Or, just check the guy with the longest-ranged weapon standing closest to the enemy. It's really not that hard. About the only time I can see the need to measure more than once is in units with pistols + flamers, or a mix of 36" and 24" guns in a strange line.

olcottr wrote:
Think of it this way: To determine which of your models can fire, you only determine if the distance to the enemy unit (closest enemy model) is within range of their weapon. Easy.

To determine which enemy model can be wounded, you have to check the distance to every one of your firing models to see if any are in range. Not so easy.

That's why you use a tape measure. It's about as hard as checking which models get to rapidfire.

olcottr wrote:
Think of it this way: To determine which of your models can fire, you only determine if the distance to the enemy unit (closest enemy model) is within range of their weapon. Easy.

To determine which enemy model can be wounded, you have to check the distance to every one of your firing models to see if any are in range. Not so easy.

But that's the exact same operation! You can even do it with the same measurement (by "sweeping" the tape measure)! Why is it easy one way, and hard the other way? By the time you're done checking range for each firing model, you should already know how many enemy models are in range. (That's how we did it before 5th, after all.)

olcottr wrote:
Units with only one range of weapon are fairly rare.

They're also the difficult case. Units with multiple ranges will typically only involve one range measurement - the longest.

olcottr wrote:
Think of it this way: To determine which of your models can fire, you only determine if the distance to the enemy unit (closest enemy model) is within range of their weapon. Easy.

To determine which enemy model can be wounded, you have to check the distance to every one of your firing models to see if any are in range. Not so easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Olcottr - no you dont, as the ones in the middle with the same range weapons will be further away then ones further forward.

Units with only one range of weapon are fairly rare.

Back to front, you measure range to shoot on a model by model basis as per page 12, then to see how many models you can wound measure the maximum range of the unit so either the firer closest or the guy with the biggest gun as per pg16/Faq.

I have a Phd in engineering... so far no one has provided a clear explanation as to how this works in my opinion. All I am seeing is lots and lots of hand waving.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I have a Phd in engineering... so far no one has provided a clear explanation as to how this works in my opinion. All I am seeing is lots and lots of hand waving.

If no model in the firing unit has range to a particular target model, the target model cannot have wounds allocated to it.

Kind of like if no model in the firing unit has LoS to a particular target model, the target model cannot have wounds allocated to it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I have a Phd in engineering...

This is the internet. Nobody is likely to care about your credentials, and nobody could check them if they did.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
so far no one has provided a clear explanation as to how this works in my opinion. All I am seeing is lots and lots of hand waving.

What is unclear about the original FAQ? Models completely out of range of all models in the firing unit can't be killed be it - that's it. A few people are desperately trying to read something more complicated into it, but it's really quite simple.

Really? Yak explained it perfectly

You can wounds models up to the range of the weapon that has the longest range in the unit, instead of just finding one model in range to begin with.

Huh, could be good for Tzeentch Flamers.

Have 8 Flamers flame a squad, even if some are hiding at the back away from them. Then have the last Flamer fire Warpfire. Everyone's still in 'range.'

Does that work?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I have a Phd in engineering... so far no one has provided a clear explanation as to how this works in my opinion. All I am seeing is lots and lots of hand waving.

Just goes to show they hand those pieces of paper out to anyone... [meant as a little joke]

I think all but a few of us are on the same page now,
For anyone else i present my masterwork of paint
blue=bolter
green=missile launcher
red= willing victim

In the top image you roll to hit 4 bolter shots and 1 missile launcher shot, you can potentially kill all the enemy, the two bolters at the back are out of range and so do not get to roll to hit.

The lower you get 4 bolter shots but can only at maximum kill one of the enemy.


Before the faq the lower part would have let you shoot 4 bolters and potentially kill all the enemy.

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Huh, could be good for Tzeentch Flamers.

Have 8 Flamers flame a squad, even if some are hiding at the back away from them. Then have the last Flamer fire Warpfire. Everyone's still in 'range.'

Does that work?

I'm not sure I'd call that "good" for flamers, since it's one less firing a template (although a full squad will still annihilate almost any single unit with 8 shots), but yes, that's the general idea.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

No, before the FAQ you could kill anyone in the unit. As stated on page 16 as long as an enemy unit starts in range they remain in range of firing even if casualty removal takes models out of range. Only by entirely changing the wording do you get any other interpretation.

Ah. As you notice, I don't have all the 6th rules down yet. Just picked up the book a couple weeks ago.

However, my post-FAQ understanding is correct.

So, here's a summary of what I've gathered from this:

Steps:
1) Check if your unit can hit a target unit.
2) Models that are in range of target unit can roll to hit the target unit and roll for wounds.
3) Take your longest ranged weapon, and see how far it can shoot. You can now only apply the wounds to the models within that longest range.This applies to flamers, but not blast weapons.
4) Do saves and stuff, removing from the front.

Does that sound about right?

The question is not even proper English... this is almost as bad as their original answer to combat squads which was completely undecipherable.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The question is not even proper English... this is almost as bad as their original answer to combat squads which was completely undecipherable.

maybe you are new to the internet. sorry i didn't use proper English i had just woke up and saw this.

 TheContortionist wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The question is not even proper English... this is almost as bad as their original answer to combat squads which was completely undecipherable.

maybe you are new to the internet. sorry i didn't use proper English i had just woke up and saw this.

Just taking a guess here, but I think he wasn't referring to you...

 yakface wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I don't think the heavy weapon example works. It says shooting models not the unit and since the pool is emptied group by group does that mean that you look at the group of bolter rounds and use them up until you hit max range and then move to the heavy weapon wounds and repeat?

Also how does this work with rapid fire? Do you just ignore the fact you just killed to a range beyond 12" and continue using up the rest of the bolter rounds?

Per the FAQ, all that matters are the models in the unit being shot at that are completely out of range of all firing weapons when 'to hit' rolls were made.

So yes, you always use the longest range of any weapon being fired to determine what models are 'in range' and therefore viable to be pulled.

page 12 "check range" states that at least one model in the unit must be in range of the target unit. When checking range, simple measure each firer to the nearest visible model of the target unit. Any model that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy modles in the target unit does'nt shoot - his shots would not be accurate enough to hit anything.

no, you don't use the longest range of any weapon being fired to determine what models are "in range" and viable to be pulled. Page 12 says this is used to TARGET the unit, not to check the range. Checking the range is the next sentence and says that each model is individually measured to check its range via nearest visible enemy model. It does not say anything about those models being able to be "pulled". This rule points out range is model to model.

Page 13 "which models can fire" states any model that is found to be in range of at least one visible enemy model in the target unit can fire. This rules points out that models firing is done model to model.

Page 13 "rolling to hit". To determine if the firing model has hit it's target, roll a D6 for each model that is in range. This rule is points out the rolls to hit are model to model as well.

Q. When making a shooting attack against a unit, can wounds from the wound pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls are made? (Page 15).
A. No.

First off GW should have made this an errata to page 15 and not a FAQ, and it is poor English; I put in ( ) of how it should read. It's confusing how they messed up the words. Now we have to dissect their new faq question to make sense of it and in order to do this we need pages 12 and 13. The first part - When making a shooting attack against a unit (page 12 which models can fire rule), can wounds from the wound pool be allocated to models that were not within range (of any of the) shooting models when (the) To Hit rolls are made (page 13 which models can fire and rolling to hit rules).

The answer is "No."

I think this rule is pretty clear, and I feel like most of you are wrong...even GW on their part. This is how it should go down - 9 models of a 10 man squad has a shooting attack that shoots 24 inches and 1 model has a 48 inch weapon. They are positioned 5 in front and 5 in the back. . The target unit has 10 models in it, 2 of which are at exactly 24 inches from the shooting units first rank of models. The shooting unit then checks to see if he can target the unit. To do this he checks his furthest ranged weapon which is 48 inches. The unit can target it.

Now the shooter checks his range from each model, and find that 5 of the models can shoot at the 2 models at 24 inches and the 48 range weapon can shoot at the enemy as well. So she shooter grabs 5 white dice for the 24 inch weapon and 1 green dice for the 48 inch weapon and rolls them all. Everything hits! Now the shooter must put those wounds into the wound pool - 6 total. The shooter then picks up the 5 white dice and the 1 green dice and rolls for wounds. Everything wounds! The enemy rolls his saving throws and fails 4 of the white 24 inch range dice and fails the 1 green 48 inch dice. The enemy then removes the 2 models that are in the 24 inch range and NO MORE the rest of the white dice wounds are lost based on the new FAQ, then the enemy removes 1 model past the 24 inch range because the 48 inch weapon is within range. This is all per how page 12-13 and the new FAQ is written.

 virx67 wrote:
So, here's a summary of what I've gathered from this:

Steps:
1) Check if your unit can hit a target unit.
2) Models that are in range of target unit can roll to hit the target unit and roll for wounds.
3) Take your longest ranged weapon, and see how far it can shoot. You can now only apply the wounds to the models within that longest range.This applies to flamers, but not blast weapons.
4) Do saves and stuff, removing from the front.

Does that sound about right?

That does not sound right to me. Explained above the quote.

 TheContortionist wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The question is not even proper English... this is almost as bad as their original answer to combat squads which was completely undecipherable.

maybe you are new to the internet. sorry i didn't use proper English i had just woke up and saw this.

My apology - I was referring to the question in the FAQ.

: )

Gunline vs assault doesn't get changed much, gunline vs gunline and assault vs assault changes a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kal-El, the condition is based on when rolling to hit... You don't even need to hit with the ML to remove models past 24

Kal-El wrote:
First off GW should have made this an errata to page 15 and not a FAQ, and it is poor English; I put in ( ) of how it should read. It's confusing how they messed up the words. Now we have to dissect their new faq question to make sense of it and in order to do this we need pages 12 and 13. The first part - When making a shooting attack against a unit (page 12 which models can fire rule), can wounds from the wound pool be allocated to models that were not within range (of any of the) shooting models when (the) To Hit rolls are made (page 13 which models can fire and rolling to hit rules).

The answer is "No."

I think this rule is pretty clear, and I feel like most of you are wrong...even GW on their part. This is how it should go down - 9 models of a 10 man squad has a shooting attack that shoots 24 inches and 1 model has a 48 inch weapon. They are positioned 5 in front and 5 in the back. . The target unit has 10 models in it, 2 of which are at exactly 24 inches from the shooting units first rank of models. The shooting unit then checks to see if he can target the unit. To do this he checks his furthest ranged weapon which is 48 inches. The unit can target it.

Now the shooter checks his range from each model, and find that 5 of the models can shoot at the 2 models at 24 inches and the 48 range weapon can shoot at the enemy as well. So she shooter grabs 5 white dice for the 24 inch weapon and 1 green dice for the 48 inch weapon and rolls them all. Everything hits! Now the shooter must put those wounds into the wound pool - 6 total. The shooter then picks up the 5 white dice and the 1 green dice and rolls for wounds. Everything wounds! The enemy rolls his saving throws and fails 4 of the white 24 inch range dice and fails the 1 green 48 inch dice. The enemy then removes the 2 models that are in the 24 inch range and NO MORE the rest of the white dice wounds are lost based on the new FAQ, then the enemy removes 1 model past the 24 inch range because the 48 inch weapon is within range. This is all per how page 12-13 and the new FAQ is written.

Except that's not what the FAQ says.

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

"Any of the shooting models." No piece-by-piece assessment of which wounds came from which range bands, just a simple check - if a target model is within range of ANY model that fired at the target unit, it is eligible to have a wound allocated to it.

 Janthkin wrote:

Kal-El wrote:
First off GW should have made this an errata to page 15 and not a FAQ, and it is poor English; I put in ( ) of how it should read. It's confusing how they messed up the words. Now we have to dissect their new faq question to make sense of it and in order to do this we need pages 12 and 13. The first part - When making a shooting attack against a unit (page 12 which models can fire rule), can wounds from the wound pool be allocated to models that were not within range (of any of the) shooting models when (the) To Hit rolls are made (page 13 which models can fire and rolling to hit rules).

The answer is "No."

I think this rule is pretty clear, and I feel like most of you are wrong...even GW on their part. This is how it should go down - 9 models of a 10 man squad has a shooting attack that shoots 24 inches and 1 model has a 48 inch weapon. They are positioned 5 in front and 5 in the back. . The target unit has 10 models in it, 2 of which are at exactly 24 inches from the shooting units first rank of models. The shooting unit then checks to see if he can target the unit. To do this he checks his furthest ranged weapon which is 48 inches. The unit can target it.

Now the shooter checks his range from each model, and find that 5 of the models can shoot at the 2 models at 24 inches and the 48 range weapon can shoot at the enemy as well. So she shooter grabs 5 white dice for the 24 inch weapon and 1 green dice for the 48 inch weapon and rolls them all. Everything hits! Now the shooter must put those wounds into the wound pool - 6 total. The shooter then picks up the 5 white dice and the 1 green dice and rolls for wounds. Everything wounds! The enemy rolls his saving throws and fails 4 of the white 24 inch range dice and fails the 1 green 48 inch dice. The enemy then removes the 2 models that are in the 24 inch range and NO MORE the rest of the white dice wounds are lost based on the new FAQ, then the enemy removes 1 model past the 24 inch range because the 48 inch weapon is within range. This is all per how page 12-13 and the new FAQ is written.

Except that's not what the FAQ says.

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

"Any of the shooting models." No piece-by-piece assessment of which wounds came from which range bands, just a simple check - if a target model is within range of ANY model that fired at the target unit, it is eligible to have a wound allocated to it.

Just as you say that's not what the FAQ says... You can't put " " around part of a sentence to plead your case, especially when it's a poorly written sentence. All we can do is interpret the rules and I interpret it how I wrote it. This ENTIRE edition is based off of model by model, why would GW change it for one rule? It says it right there in your quote in the ( ) that it is model to model. It also shows more evidence of GWs poorly written sentences because the first usage of model should be plural since the word "are" was used instead of "is".

doesn't matter what the BRB says anymore, subject is closed with the way the FAQ works. Only questionable thing is, what is in range of the template since it doesn't roll to hit but that you can easily play RAI for to come to a fair agreement.

What f**ks this up more is if models with rapidfire weapons are within 12 and want to shoot they have to rapid fire, so it's going to be more beneficial now to keep a dude out of 12 inches just to ensure all the other guys who are rapid firing can wound the whole target unit..

 Crablezworth wrote:
What f**ks this up more is if models with rapidfire weapons are within 12 and want to shoot they have to rapid fire, so it's going to be more beneficial now to keep a dude out of 12 inches just to ensure all the other guys who are rapid firing can wound the whole target unit..

I thought this for a bit earlier today; however as someone else pointed out rapid fire doesn't decrease your range, it just gives you an extra shot when the target unit is within half range.