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Don't they just get like 1-2 guys from a few of the squads in the company to pilot the vehicles?

 Crimson wrote:
Storm Talon pilot is also a Techmarine. Interestingly DA flyers seem to be piloted by ordinary Ravenwing battle-brothers.

I think GW should build on concepts of there being more levels of Techmarine like there are Librarian, and the lowest ones serve to pilot chapter warmachines.

Of course that would screw around with the ~1,000 figure a bit so doubt it will happen....

Veteran Sergeant wrote:This word. Does not mean what you appear to think it means.

It does. You just did not understand my argument.
But I suppose it may have been my fault for not wording my thoughts in a clearer manner, so to clarify:

The "precedent" was not at all referring to multiple sources but rather a single one - the Index Astartes. This source mentioned how individual Space Marines are trained for several roles, having what would qualify for an infantry MOS today as well as a driver's, with the source mentioning bikes and land speeders directly as it explains how an entire reserve company can deploy in such vehicles. This is the precedent which leads me to believe that they may as well be trained for other vehicles, just with the added caveat that the company will not deploy as many of them. Which would bring the source in line with the newer WD statement about the reserve providing drivers for all supporting vehicles, rather than creating a conflict between this material. For wherever I can find a way to reconcile multiple apparently conflicting sources with a plausible argument, I will do so, rather than simply discounting one.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Again, it comes down to interpretation. Your interpretations are all too often colored with a rejection of Space Marines and a desire to downplay their significance in the fluff and their capabilities. it is little wonder that your suggests should be met with that grain of salt slowly dissolving on the tongue.

I'm not quite sure how you can draw a connection between my interpretation that "Space Marines are infantry as well as drivers" and a supposed "rejection of Space Marines and desire to downplay their significance and capabilities". However, since I've been on the other side of the argument myself, I know that it is difficult to eliminate the emotional component entirely when conferring with a poster I regard as holding a strong bias, so I can see where you're coming from.

Of course I still object to your claim regarding the latter, for I regard my occasional ramblings as "balancing" against what I perceive as a rampant "hype of Space Marines and a desire to exaggerate their significance and capabilities", with me usually citing GW sources as a counterpoint to some people's flawed observations - which again and again create threads asking why X doesn't work like they think it should. And yes, in this case I say flawed, because quite often I noticed people claiming that some source would say something, only to find out it doesn't! It's why I have become so sceptical and started to collect the relevant material myself, just so I could fact-check what some fans post.
I take little problem with people just having other opinions, ideas and preferences about the setting, but when they think that this is what GW is promulgating then I believe that this perspective needs to be corrected, at least for the sake of anyone who comes across, reads it, and thinks that this is what the book really says.

On a sidenote, this is also why I take no offense if you or anyone else wants to fact-check my claims and quotes, and why I'm always mentioning the exact source I'm pulling it from. I feel it increases my credibility, as opposed to just throwing allegations and assumptions into the room. Plus, even I can misremember stuff whenever I'm operating partially from memory.

... but really, "rejecting Space Marines"? They've been my first minis. They've been my first Codex. I've just finished the Space Marine videogame campaign (and am still rocking in multiplayer). And I am currently playing one in a game of Deathwatch!
Just because I am rejecting, say, your interpretation of Space Marines does not at all mean that I reject Space Marines in general. I just prefer what I consider to be GW's vision of them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There are plenty of caveats to my opinions, since I prefer common sense, conventional wisdom, real world commonalities, and rational contextual analysis.

Can you please turn down the self-adoration a bit - we all know you consider yourself to be superior to whoever you're argueing against.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:A Space Marine Chapter that can operate without perpetually depleting its entire Reserve forces by default.
or
A Space Marine Chapter that is perpetually understrength by token of poor design and has Reserve Companies that have almost no capability to act as reserves, nor to operate even its own organic vehicle assets.

For the record: a Space Marine Chapter cannot be "understrength" if it was never intended to field a thousand warriors as infantry and have vehicles on top of it. A Chapter may just as well be designed as a very flexible organisation that has a lot more tools than it has people to hand them out to, in order to maximise their efficiency and make the best of the numbers they have. I consider that to be more fitting to their representation rather than a fixed structure where Brother Erasmus and his 19 friends stay home again because the company's Rhinos are again not needed on this mission. A Space Marine chilling in the fortress-monastery rather than fighting on the battlefield is a wasted resource. Plus, the reserve isn't meant to fight anywhere on their own, so why not tap them? Or are you advocating dropping the difference between battle and reserve companies altogether?

But at least we agree about the choice in/between interpretations.

Hruotland wrote:I do not have a problem at all with the idea that 1 in 10 marines should be driving. Au contraire, in modern army there are 9 supporters behind every soldier actually doing the fighting, I read somewhere. So my personal interpretation of that poorly thought-through SM fluff is that the number of 1000 in the Codex was meant to describe the core of the chapter, the regular battle brothers including the HQ, but not including scouts (not yet full-fledged) and all those techmarines who are skilled in warfare like every battle brother but nevertheless somehow marines 2nd degree, Iron Hands not counting.

Without trying to contest a personal interpretation, I will point out that in Codex fluff, the Scouts are indeed part of the "1.000" rule, for all the books I've read break down a Codex Chapter into 10x10x10, with the 10th company being the Scouts. Strangely enough, many of the same sources also note that the Scout company does not have a fixed strength, which I can only assume means that the Scouts' 10x10 is some sort of an ideal that will be regarded as unlikely to retain, whereas for all other companies the Chapter will do its best to keep it at 10 squads with 10 Marines each.
Techmarines, on the other hand, are indeed said to be part of the Headquarters staff, as are their servitors. This is mentioned in both the Index Astartes as well as the 5E Marine Codex. The Headquarters staff is said to be "supernumaries" who "stand aside from company organisation". Apothecaries, Librarians, and Fleet officers will be found there, too.

All I've ever read about Techmarines only mentioned how they do maintenance and repairs (at times in the field) on vehicles and wargear, though. Never about them driving anything. I have no idea how to bring the obviously conflicting miniatures in line with what I've read in the books ... then again, see below.

Harriticus wrote:I think GW should build on concepts of there being more levels of Techmarine like there are Librarian, and the lowest ones serve to pilot chapter warmachines.
Of course that would screw around with the ~1,000 figure a bit so doubt it will happen....

Maybe that's what they intended with those cog-labeled drivers and the new fluff on the Armoury, including Sergeant Chronus?
Since Techmarines are supernumaries, they would even keep the 1k figure. However, they may have to move all vehicles out of the companies and into the Armoury to cut loose the connection, not just the tanks.

I just dug out my books and compared the fluff, and GW indeed seems to have started to "retcon" (within its own material) a few things. For example, the 5E Chapter organisation chart is nowhere near what we know from the 3E Codex. All the Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Razorbacks and Land Raiders have been moved into the Armoury (where Sergeant Chronus is responsible for armoured warfare), leaving only Rhinos and Dreads with the companies.

It may be likely that this means that, in addition to all the previous codices, the Index Astartes as well as WD #300 are outdatet, at least as far as GW's idea on this subject is concerned.

If I were to look just at the 5E Codex (it being the newest source, I believe) I would interpret it as the Armoury and its (50, in case of the Ultramarines) drivers being responsible for armoured warfare, whereas Rhinos are still assigned to each company individually, and have to be manned either from within the company's own multi-role Marines, or out of the reserve.
The chart on pages 18-19, at least, is supposed to depict the entire 2nd company, and there are no dedicated drivers to be found anywhere.

 Lynata wrote:
I just dug out my books and compared the fluff, and GW indeed seems to have started to "retcon" (within its own material) a few things. For example, the 5E Chapter organisation chart is nowhere near what we know from the 3E Codex. All the Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Razorbacks and Land Raiders have been moved into the Armoury (where Sergeant Chronus is responsible for armoured warfare), leaving only Rhinos and Dreads with the companies.

Erm.. what bit of the 3e codex did you read exactly? The Ultramarines Chapter Organisation armoury vehicle* numbers in the 5E codex were copied** from the armoury numbers in the Strategic Dispostion Of The Ultramarines Chapter in the 3rd edition codex, which likewise didn't put any Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Razorbacks or Land Raiders under the companies - with the exception of the 1st Companies 7 Land Raiders, whose presence is not actually contradicted by the 5e codex, as page 17 notes that transport vehicles are not listed - and that's what the 1st companies Land Raiders are for.

* they changed the number of techmarines and servitors by a tiny amount for some reason .
** tho 5e simply lists 25 Predators where 3e specified 14 Destructors and 11 Annihilators

Bikes and land speeders seem to be taken out of that vehicle pool because bikes are treated more a kind of personal equipment like jet packs or the like. In case of the land speeder though it is not so easy to understand why. I believe it has something to do witch changing the design. While the nowadays landspeeder looks like a helicopter derivate (and it even had "pop up attack" in those happy 2nd ed. days, while the scout speeder takes the vietnam lane) the rogue trader land speeder was looking like a two crew jetbike, kind of trike/bike with sidecar equivalent. Though the design has changed, its place in the army has stayed the same, only there are no more jetbikes with IoM to go with it save one.
So the tanks and apc have a supporting role, while bikes and skimmers are considered kind of cavalry

In case of the DA flyers, having them piloted by standard battle brothers instead of techmarines like the rest of the astartes flyers seems quite in line with the fluff for me. They are described as being assigned to the Ravenwing, which is considered "confidential level" because of its role of hunting the Fallen. Better not incorporate a techmarine with his split loyalty. Which brings me to the question how much they trust their techmarines at all, when even some vanilla flavoured guys have issues with that? But that'S another topic.

Thankfully this one is easy for the space wolves: the Iron Priests maintain the motor pool and Egil Ironwolf`s Great Company runs `em like they stole `em.

It always seemed silly to be that they would use any of the limited allowed Sm's for drivers. I my version of 40k I have wash out Sm drivers and ship crew and the like.

SerQuintus wrote:Erm.. what bit of the 3e codex did you read exactly? The Ultramarines Chapter Organisation armoury vehicle* numbers in the 5E codex were copied** from the armoury numbers in the Strategic Dispostion Of The Ultramarines Chapter in the 3rd edition codex, which likewise didn't put any Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Razorbacks or Land Raiders under the companies - with the exception of the 1st Companies 7 Land Raiders, whose presence is not actually contradicted by the 5e codex, as page 17 notes that transport vehicles are not listed - and that's what the 1st companies Land Raiders are for.
* they changed the number of techmarines and servitors by a tiny amount for some reason .
** tho 5e simply lists 25 Predators where 3e specified 14 Destructors and 11 Annihilators

You are absolutely correct. As I checked the book I only glanced at the chart as I wanted to read the exact wording of the note regarding crew complements. For some reason, the existence of the Armoury had slipped my mind entirely - and here I was, thinking that it was something new!

See, prime example of why fact-checking is a good thing!

In the process of directly comparing the books against each other, I also dug up some lines in the old 2E Marines 'dex that I never noticed before. Interesting parts underlined:

"Tactical Reserve Companies 6 and 7 are comprised entirely of Tactical squads. They are intended to act as a general reserve, providing the Chapter with a powerful, flexible force able to launch flank attacks en masse, bolster the main line or combat unexpected enemy manoeuvres.
In addition, the Marines of the 6th and 7th Companies can also act as crews for large, independent formations of the various armoured vehicles deployed by the Chapter. Thus the Chapter is able to field entire companies of Land Raiders or Predator battle tanks, for example.
Furthermore, the two companies have a special usage as bike and land speeder detachments. The entire 6th Company can be deployed as Bike squadrons or detachments. The 7th Company is likewise trained to operate as large scale Land Speeder formations."
- 2E C:UM p.30

"Each company except for the 10th maintains its own pool of Rhino transports. These vehicles carry the Chapter and army badges as well as tactical and organisational information. Every squad in the company has a Rhino on permanent standby."
- 2E C:UM p.34

"Space Marines are trained to operate all manner of machines and more than any other warriors of the Imperium they can adapt to fulfil any combat role. All Space Marines are able to act as crew for the vehicles maintained in each Chapter's armoury. It is normally the Tactical squads which provide vehicle crews. When fighting in this role they replace their normal tactical markings with crew badges, but otherwise they retain their company colours and Chapter insignia as normal."
- 2E C:UM p.35

New in the 5E 'dex seems to be the concept of a dedicated armoured assault commander at least within the Ultramarines, but the book is not clear about whether Sergeant Chronus has his ~50 Space Marines under permanent command or rather just gains automated leadership of a dedicated armoured column whenever one is formed from crews drawn from the Reserve as normal. Given the previously quoted material, I'm leaning towards the former, for I generally do not suspect a retcon unless the conflict is obvious.

So, there is no conflict between the sources after all, and I am returning to my previous position: Rhinos are usually crewed by Marines from their own company, but the Reserve may provide drivers if, for some reason, an entire Battle Company desires to mobilise as infantry. I suspect this would be an exception from the rule, however, and that normally a Battle Company will split up into roles depending on what the situation calls for. Additional elements from the Reserve are then included to make up for the Space Marines who become drivers.

I also noted that not even the Armoury's existence can be traced back right to 2nd Edition, but also the concept of supernumaries as an explanation on how there's room for Apothecaries, Techmarines, Librarians and the HQ if a Chapter is supposed to only have a thousand warriors - so in spite of my earlier belief, this info has been there all along, rebutting the accusation that GW didn't think their numbers through. Considering how many threads and even articles I've seen regarding this subject alone (and I'm not talking just about dakka here), it seems that a whole lot of hardcore Marine fans who otherwise express a lot of interest in the topic have not been very thorough in reading their own army's codices. However, to their defense I will add that this info is buried fairly good, and somewhat easy to miss.

This comes to mind.

Who does not want to be the Marine with two thousand years of combat experience, all of which was driving a rhino around?

My rhinos still use the original fluff for them and have an "auto-drive unit". As well as "auto-aim" for the weapons.

My marines, being brain-wiped and repurposed psychopaths prefer it that way.

Oh gods. Thank you for that comic, it seems quite worthwhile.

*rummages through directory*

in soul hunter a legion serf piloted a thunder-hawk, of course this was a dwindling band of Night Lords.

The Night Lords never adapted the Codex Astartes reforms - I would deem it likely that the Space Marines were far less flexible back during the days of the Great Crusade and the Heresy, simply because they were much more embedded in the Imperial military machine and had far more Marines at their disposal than the small elite corps whose size basically forces them into such a high degree of adaptability.

That, and it's just one more origin of fluff and thus yet another author's interpretation on the subject, of course.

Simplest answer is usually the best:

There are more than 1000 Marines in a Chapter (quite a bit more actually, factoring in HQ in each company, ad-hoc Command units, the Librarius, Apothecarion and Armoury), and those that drive the vehicles are members of the Armoury (notice how the plastic Marine kits always have the Skullcog shoulder pad - that's 'cause they ain't Company Marines, they're Armoury Marines).

H.B.M.C. wrote:notice how the plastic Marine kits always have the Skullcog shoulder pad - that's 'cause they ain't Company Marines, they're Armoury Marines

Well, the 2E Codex Ultramarines already offers an explanation regarding the shoulder pads - see here.

Of course it would be perfectly okay to simply dismiss these parts of studio fluff in favour of some other organisation, such as the one you mentioned! Maybe that was your intention; the wording just sounded as if you wanted to present some sort of "evidence".

 Lynata wrote:

All I've ever read about Techmarines only mentioned how they do maintenance and repairs (at times in the field) on vehicles and wargear, though. Never about them driving anything. I have no idea how to bring the obviously conflicting miniatures in line with what I've read in the books ... then again, see below..

Perhaps the Marines driving vehicles with the AM symbol on their shoulderpads are techmarines-in-training? Ie, they're Marines from the normal companies who have shown affinity with technology/expressed a desire to become Techmarine and as part of their training are sent out into the field to work with and gain understanding of performance in the field of the Holy Technologies they will one day help build/repair/maintain. But they're not full TM's yet, which is why driving vehicles isn't mentioned in the TM's job description above.

If Techmarines aren't counted towards a Chapoter's 1,000 marines, maybe their aspirants aren't, either, which could easily shore up some of the numbers needed for vehicle crewing (but not all; I doubt there's 200 marines in most chapters who want to become techmarines

NB: This is not an attempt to say that all SM drivers are techmarines in training; merely an attempt to rationalise the existence of the models in-universe. It's also, AFAIK, not official fluff anywhere. Just something that popped in my mind when I read the post.

 Lynata wrote:
Of course it would be perfectly okay to simply dismiss these parts of studio fluff in favour of some other organisation, such as the one you mentioned! Maybe that was your intention; the wording just sounded as if you wanted to present some sort of "evidence".

What's "studio fluff" Lynata? I thought there was just "fluff". You and your crazy non-existent distinctions!

 Lynata wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:notice how the plastic Marine kits always have the Skullcog shoulder pad - that's 'cause they ain't Company Marines, they're Armoury Marines

Well, the 2E Codex Ultramarines already offers an explanation regarding the shoulder pads - see here.

Of course it would be perfectly okay to simply dismiss these parts of studio fluff in favour of some other organisation, such as the one you mentioned! Maybe that was your intention; the wording just sounded as if you wanted to present some sort of "evidence".

I'd say the half brother of marneus calgar got it right

Shall we really dismiss the codex and its consistent claim:
(borrowed from Lynatas post)

"Tactical Reserve Companies 6 and 7 are comprised entirely of Tactical squads. They are intended to act as a general reserve, providing the Chapter with a powerful, flexible force able to launch flank attacks en masse, bolster the main line or combat unexpected enemy manoeuvres.
In addition, the Marines of the 6th and 7th Companies can also act as crews for large, independent formations of the various armoured vehicles deployed by the Chapter. Thus the Chapter is able to field entire companies of Land Raiders or Predator battle tanks, for example.
Furthermore, the two companies have a special usage as bike and land speeder detachments. The entire 6th Company can be deployed as Bike squadrons or detachments. The 7th Company is likewise trained to operate as large scale Land Speeder formations."
- 2E C:UM p.30

"Each company except for the 10th maintains its own pool of Rhino transports. These vehicles carry the Chapter and army badges as well as tactical and organisational information. Every squad in the company has a Rhino on permanent standby."
- 2E C:UM p.34

"Space Marines are trained to operate all manner of machines and more than any other warriors of the Imperium they can adapt to fulfil any combat role. All Space Marines are able to act as crew for the vehicles maintained in each Chapter's armoury. It is normally the Tactical squads which provide vehicle crews. When fighting in this role they replace their normal tactical markings with crew badges, but otherwise they retain their company colours and Chapter insignia as normal."
- 2E C:UM p.35

Important part boldened.
Rhino's aren't part of the arsenal, except a few relics maybe. Vehicles of the arsenal are crewed by any marine assigned to this duty.
They are trained to act as crew and a few of the most valuable vehicles may have a techmarine close to them.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

All I've ever read about Techmarines only mentioned how they do maintenance and repairs (at times in the field) on vehicles and wargear, though. Never about them driving anything. I have no idea how to bring the obviously conflicting miniatures in line with what I've read in the books ... then again, see below..

Perhaps the Marines driving vehicles with the AM symbol on their shoulderpads are techmarines-in-training? Ie, they're Marines from the normal companies who have shown affinity with technology/expressed a desire to become Techmarine and as part of their training are sent out into the field to work with and gain understanding of performance in the field of the Holy Technologies they will one day help build/repair/maintain. But they're not full TM's yet, which is why driving vehicles isn't mentioned in the TM's job description above.

If Techmarines aren't counted towards a Chapoter's 1,000 marines, maybe their aspirants aren't, either, which could easily shore up some of the numbers needed for vehicle crewing (but not all; I doubt there's 200 marines in most chapters who want to become techmarines

NB: This is not an attempt to say that all SM drivers are techmarines in training; merely an attempt to rationalise the existence of the models in-universe. It's also, AFAIK, not official fluff anywhere. Just something that popped in my mind when I read the post.

Techmarines are trained on Mars, so they really cannot be techmarines in training.

In my chapter the Crimson Templars there are both regular marines and Techmarines manning the vehicles. Regular marines are dedicated vehicle crew, and drive less complicated vehicles such as rhinos, razorbacks and landspeeders (In case of Crimson Templars bikers come from this pool of vehicle crew too, but this is certainly is not a codex practice.) Then there are techmarines overseeing operation of more complex vehicles such as land raiders and flyers.

I usually agree with Lynata on matters of fluff, but here I do not think that sticking to the limit of exactly thousand marines is necessary. The organisation just works much better if we assume thousand is just the number of the line troops.

Oh, I don't really care one way or the other; I was merely offering a possible explanation for Lynata's benefit.

(It still seems like a good idea to me to send anyone who wants to be a Techmarine out in the field with the vehicles they're supposed to service as part of their training, or before their training to weed out the willing-but-unable ones.)

In any case, I usually agree with him (her? The picture of a Sister - is that Ephrael Stern?- confuses me) on fluff matters as well, except regarding her dislike of my favorite Chapter.

1hadhq wrote:Important part boldened. Rhino's aren't part of the arsenal, except a few relics maybe. Vehicles of the arsenal are crewed by any marine assigned to this duty. They are trained to act as crew and a few of the most valuable vehicles may have a techmarine close to them.

So you're saying that each and every Space Marine from all 9 companies is trained as and can be appointed as driver for any tank or a Landraider, but a Rhino would require specialists?

I would deem it more likely that, in this quote, "armoury" was referring to the location rather than the organisational entity. I mean, where would a Chapter store its Rhinos if not in the armoury? Does each company have a special garage elsewhere in the fortress-monastery? Who would care for and repair them, if not the armoury's Techmarines?

1hadhq wrote:the half brother of marneus calgar got it right

Is that really what the abbreviation is for? I've always wondered ...

H.B.M.C. wrote:What's "studio fluff" Lynata? I thought there was just "fluff". You and your crazy non-existent distinctions!

The miniatures come from the studio, which also already offers an explanation for why they look like they do. That's all.
It is quite correct that studio fluff is no more right or wrong than any other source - as much as you seem to like twisting my words regarding this, I do believe I've emphasised this often enough whenever I've talked about the nature of 40k fluff, at least ever since having dropped my much earlier, flawed stance (where your criticism would actually have been justified). My own preference for studio fluff is a purely personal thing, just like some people here have posted in the past that they prefer material of other origins. /shrug

Crimson wrote:The organisation just works much better if we assume thousand is just the number of the line troops.

Mhm, but would this not apply only if a Chapter ever wishes to commit any and all of its Marines and vehicles to some campaign? The standard engagement (at least as per GW's writing) is a Battle Company reinforced by elements of the Reserve. The multi-role and reorg capabilities thus forced onto the Astartes might be intended to (a) increase their versatility/adaptability whilst simultaneously (b) making them less dangerous to the Imperium of Man (by artificially inflating every single Marine's importance, so that a withdrawal of support from the gene-banks or even denial of recruiting grounds would make casualties hurt them even more) in an effort to prevent a second Heresy / decrease a rogue Chapter's capabilities.
If it would not work that way but every company were supposed to act as an independent entity from the rest of the Chapter, the Space Marines would not even have Reserve Companies, I'd think. By each Marine being capable of assuming two, three or more roles, a Chapter can "mix and match" combat capabilities depending on how the situation demands.

Crimson wrote:Techmarines are trained on Mars, so they really cannot be techmarines in training.

That throws up the question on how Techmarines may be selected for their training path - are they chosen "randomly" upon recruitment, or selected based on some sort of proficiency they have shown during service? If the latter, perhaps the position of driver could be seen as doubling as some sort of evaluation/trial...
Just a loose theory, of course, but I'd presume that the Astartes select their drivers at least partially due to skill.

Bran Dawri wrote:except regarding her dislike of my favorite Chapter

For what it's worth, I still think the SW were/are an awesome idea at the core - just that it was not executed all that well ...

The truth is GW don't actually think about what they are writing as 12 year olds don't normally care who drives the transport tanks. This explains why the entire Blood Angels chapter only have 3 Thunderhawk Transporters!

I love these threads becuase it all comes to the same conclusion, 1000 marines exactly is not an accurate number. It can't be.

Part of the problem is that GW shoehorned themselves into this position with the early fluff that doesn't make sense as the years have gone on. The current marine codex details how a marine starts as a scout, becomes a devastator, moves on to assault marine, then to a tactical marine. No where in there does it state that it includes rhino drivers ed.

This leads to the inevitable conclusion that there must be more marines than the 1000, or the 1000 simply doesn't include specialty roles like the librarium, or vehicle drivers.

The 1000 marines leads to other problems as well. If marines are depicted as black library and codicii often due as line infantry, then 1000 marines is preposterous as even the loss of one marine would dampen the entire fighting strength of the chapter. But wait it gets better, most stories involve only a company of marines which makes even less sense since as a line force the loss of any marines effects the chapter as a whole.

Only FW fluff seems to try to reconcile this problem by stating that marines arn't in fact line infantry, but are a strike force that launches to attack a discrete target, destroys it, then withdraws. At least then you can argue that even if they took casualties they could withdraw from the battlespace entirely as a one and done spent force.

tl;dr, there are more than 1000 marines.

 buddha wrote:
I love these threads becuase it all comes to the same conclusion, 1000 marines exactly is not an accurate number. It can't be.

It is the only correct answer.

If you want Marine lore that makes sense you aren't going to look at Games Workshop. From start to finish, Marines do not make any sense at all without seriously ignoring all of the major problems that are derived from their very existence, how they are made, their history, how they are used, how they are equipped, how they are somehow able to survive and not be wiped out constantly, etc.

But, for most people, they're cool enough that suspension of disbelief comes in to effect.

How exactly having only 1000 breaks your suspension of disbelief any more than the incredibly high number of ludicrous and unbelievable bs that goes on around Marines is beyond me.

 Melissia wrote:

 buddha wrote:
I love these threads becuase it all comes to the same conclusion, 1000 marines exactly is not an accurate number. It can't be.

It is the only correct answer.

Unless you look at the fluff that contradicts it. You know, then it's like, incorrect or something.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 buddha wrote:
I love these threads becuase it all comes to the same conclusion, 1000 marines exactly is not an accurate number. It can't be.

It is the only correct answer.

Unless you look at the fluff that contradicts it. You know, then it's like, incorrect or something.

Please, fluff contradicts itself all the time. If you aren't capable of ignoring some piece of fluff or other, you aren't going to like the setting AT ALL because the contradicitons are everywhere.

Wait. What I said was exactly what you just said, that everything gets contradicted.

Unless you're saying that "the only correct answer" is that it is impossible for a chapter to be 1,000 Marines. In which case I misunderstood you.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Important part boldened. Rhino's aren't part of the arsenal, except a few relics maybe. Vehicles of the arsenal are crewed by any marine assigned to this duty. They are trained to act as crew and a few of the most valuable vehicles may have a techmarine close to them.

So you're saying that each and every Space Marine from all 9 companies is trained as and can be appointed as driver for any tank or a Landraider, but a Rhino would require specialists?

No, you are ignoring what GW did. I am saying they split the equipment and vehicles between a companies own and the general pool of the arsenal. Exactly where thew quote is consistent and , read in context, tells us who may drive the vehicles which do not belong to a company.

 Lynata wrote:
I would deem it more likely that, in this quote, "armoury" was referring to the location rather than the organisational entity. I mean, where would a Chapter store its Rhinos if not in the armoury? Does each company have a special garage elsewhere in the fortress-monastery? Who would care for and repair them, if not the armoury's Techmarines?

The old "garage" nonsense again?
See, arsenal is a term GW used more than once. Master of the arsenal for example is a title. The Arsenal itself usually the place where the chapters specialist vehicles and relics are but this doesn't make "the Arsenal" as a location and "the Arsenal" as a part of the organization of the chapter the same thing.
Is a predator the same as a rhino or does it just share the same basic hull ?
Is a specialized tank which has to come from an Arsenal and usually assigned to a force consisting of multiple untis of a chapter under the command of a senior officer like the captain of a battle company by the chapter master himself not a different thing than a rhino which belongs to a squad?





Shall we assume the plastic kit has no cockpit and no driver mini, thus rhinos drive themselves?
I know I know, no PotMS...

 Lynata wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:What's "studio fluff" Lynata? I thought there was just "fluff". You and your crazy non-existent distinctions!

The miniatures come from the studio, which also already offers an explanation for why they look like they do. That's all.

Last time 'I have checked, they got "driver" and "gunner" wrong on their new landspeeder DJ ( vengeance ) kits manual.
Must be no certified STUDIO tm material then. Isn't certified STUDIO tm stuff always correct?

buddha wrote:The current marine codex details how a marine starts as a scout, becomes a devastator, moves on to assault marine, then to a tactical marine. No where in there does it state that it includes rhino drivers ed.
This leads to the inevitable conclusion that there must be more marines than the 1000, or the 1000 simply doesn't include specialty roles like the librarium, or vehicle drivers.

That is because "Rhino driver" or "Tank driver" isn't a dedicated specialty that the Space Marine is assigned for a specific duration of time (like, say, Scout), but rather a job they only do when the vehicle is actually fielded in a campaign.

As for Librarians and Apothecaries, these professions are specifically mentioned to be counted as "supernumaries" of the Headquarters Staff, and indeed not being counted amongst the 1.000 warriors.
GW actually did explain that, it was stated in the 2E Codex already, and it was in the Index Astartes. I would not be surprised if it's in the 5E 'dex as well. The stuff just is somewhat hard to find as it tends to be only a single sentence somewhere in the book. For example, I thought the concept of supernumaries was fairly new as well, introduced when someone at GW noticed that "1.000 Marines" doesn't quite work out with all the Captains and Techmarines etc. Imagine my surprise when, in the course of researching for this very thread, I stumbled over that line in a book from about 20 years ago!

buddha wrote:If marines are depicted as black library and codicii often due as line infantry, then 1000 marines is preposterous as even the loss of one marine would dampen the entire fighting strength of the chapter. But wait it gets better, most stories involve only a company of marines which makes even less sense since as a line force the loss of any marines effects the chapter as a whole.

I don't see the problem with only a single (reinforced) company being engaged in a campaign - it fits their shock troop capabilities perfectly.
I do agree that a large number of novels and even some studio fluff does a somewhat bad job at describing their battles, often presenting situations that do not seem to fit well to their tactical and strategic doctrines. Personally, I usually try to avoid drawing conclusions from singular reports and rather see them as possible exceptions from the rule (in particular because they sometimes also contain almost impossible feats of arms), limiting my perception to what the studio fluff describes as the actual standard.

That being said, if you'd really wish to field Space Marines like line infantry, I don't think adding, say, +100 extra Marines as drivers on top to the 1.000 infantry would make much of a difference.

1hadhq wrote:No, you are ignoring what GW did. I am saying they split the equipment and vehicles between a companies own and the general pool of the arsenal. Exactly where thew quote is consistent and , read in context, tells us who may drive the vehicles which do not belong to a company.

Erm ... isn't this exactly what I said there? I was highlighting your interpretation in a direct connection to the fluff, as it sounds a bit "weird" when read next to each other. Or, wait ... are you just dismissing that Codex quote about any and all Space Marines being trained as crew?

1hadhq wrote:The old "garage" nonsense again? See, arsenal is a term GW used more than once. Master of the arsenal for example is a title. The Arsenal itself usually the place where the chapters specialist vehicles and relics are but this doesn't make "the Arsenal" as a location and "the Arsenal" as a part of the organization of the chapter the same thing.

You are evading the question.
Rhinos have to be put and maintained somewhere. If this is not the armoury, what else would it be?

If you say that it's "not the same thing", you are actually agreeing with me.

 Lynata wrote:

are you just dismissing that Codex quote about any and all Space Marines being trained as crew?

Trained as crew isn't equal to act as crew.
You may have a drivers license. Doesn't mean you get to drive MY car.

There is a decision made, who gets a position and as multi-role-trained as the marines are, I'd expect to see the most talented assigned to a certain duty. Also the techmarines may have a veto if one isn't paying respect and mistreats the machine..

 Lynata wrote:

Rhinos have to be put and maintained somewhere. If this is not the armoury, what else would it be?

Rhinos maintain themselves. ( old STC feature ).

Or if a specialist is at hand, are maintained wherever this person finds a workplace acceptable enough.