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I think we came close to simul-posting, so I'll reiterate here- there is a lot of "passing the buck" going on regarding materials. At no point did they ever say any Season 3 Dreadball models would be metal, yet they shipped them as such with no notice.

I just want the issues acknowledged... dodging them makes the issues much worse, imo. They won't go away on their own, they have to be dealt with head-on.

Much later on, well after the campaign ended, did Mantic say "hey now we can make plastic sprues". At no point did they ever say "... that we'll give to you for free" or "that you can buy for a nickel next tuesday".

Would I be happy to get hard plastic sprues in my box? Sure sure! Would I be upset if I didn't? Nope because that's not what I pledged for.

Just because an assumption is repeated often enough does make make it the truth, and Dakka is no exception to this.

 RiTides wrote:
I guess it just means that in any future Mantic update, don't assume anything...

Any other company posting "We're making X models out of Y material!" I would assume that... X models would all be out of Y material.

But with Dreadball, some models were swapped to metal without any notice. And here, updates about hard plastic apparently do not apply to some folks.

I am not in the DZ kickstarter, and still waiting to see what my material my Dreadball team shows up as. But their communication on these issues is frankly terrible.

This isn't what happened. Mantic announced that the Enforcers would be restic and people pledged throughout the campaign on the basis that the Enforcers would be restic. After the campaign finished, Mantic kept receiving extra pledges through surveys which allowed them to hit additional stretch goals and also fund an Enforcer hard plastic sprue. At no point did Mantic say that the Restics would be swapped out, but The Internet assumed they would. Mantic didn't comment either way which lent credibility to the rumour. Eventually, by repeating it enough, it became thought of as fact.

There is potentially some overlap where people pledged extra on their survey after the hard plastic announcement since they could have been doing so thinking they would be getting HP Enforcers. If anyone has done that then I'm sure that Mantic will be happy to swap the Enforcer items out for their equivalent hard plastics.

 judgedoug wrote:
Just because an assumption is repeated often enough does make make it the truth, and Dakka is no exception to this.

Again, I'm in Dreadball... you know, the campaign that took money a long time ago

Do you acknowledge that their shipping metal models for some team sculpts but not others, without even notifying backers of the change prior to shipping is a problem? Or, in your view, is that OK?

I just want to be clear where we stand here...

Edit: Ninja'ed, @Deadleh- It sounds like that's exactly what happened... I have no issue with what you're saying. I'm saying with Mantic, one needs to not assume anything now...As you said yourself, they should have simply said some would be in restic, and later ones in plastic... but honestly I don't care about DZ as I'm not in that campaign, I care about Dreadball and there has been a complete bait and switch with the partial metal teams and that is being glossed over! And that is unacceptable...

 RiTides wrote:
I think we came close to simul-posting, so I'll reiterate here- there is a lot of "passing the buck" going on regarding materials. At no point did they ever say any Season 3 Dreadball models would be metal, yet they shipped them as such with no notice.

I just want the issues acknowledged... dodging them makes the issues much worse, imo. They won't go away on their own, they have to be dealt with head-on.

Agreed. If there was no mention of minis coming out in metal, prominent special mention of it should be made. I don't know if Dreadball/Deadzone had a general disclaimer about variable material casting but if it didn't and only plastic and restic were mentioned then it should be dealt with clearly and sooner rather than later.

 edlowe wrote:

Im not sure I really wanted to click on that link! Discussions like that would really put me off pledging!

No joke. That crap annoys me to no end. I remember trying to ask questions in the comments early in the Dead Zone KS and being 'drowned out' by those idiots.

So they paid for restic Enforcers and hard plastic Enforcers? Do they use the same molds or did they just waste money on restic Enforcer production?
I've yet to encounter a miniature company that is more schizophrenic with their material choices and subsequent quality control.

 RiTides wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Just because an assumption is repeated often enough does make make it the truth, and Dakka is no exception to this.

Again, I'm in Dreadball... you know, the campaign that took money a long time ago

Do you acknowledge that their shipping metal models for some team sculpts but not others, without even notifying backers of the change prior to shipping is a problem? Or, in your view, is that OK?

I just want to be clear where we stand here...

I agree that communication should have been improved. I understand where you're coming from. My issue was your post which linked two completely different circumstances together unfairly.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 plastictrees wrote:
So they paid for restic Enforcers and hard plastic Enforcers? Do they use the same molds or did they just waste money on restic Enforcer production?
I've yet to encounter a miniature company that is more schizophrenic with their material choices and subsequent quality control.

The Deadzone starter box is designed to be quick to build and play for newcomers, which means simple restic models. The models in the box will remain restic, and I believe that the hard plastic Enforcers will be sold as Warpath units.

To be honest they should of been more clear on that update, I read that and think that all Enforcers will be upgraded to hard plastic, not they will be in restic and some time in the futre we will add HP Enforcers. If they were more clear I wouldn't have a problem. I don't have a problem, a bit annoyed as they weren't quite clear on the subject but I can see why some would have.

Trust me I'd love to have tons of free hard plastic Enforcers. I spent literally hours filling my survey out, as I bought tons of extra Enforcers (to use with Antenociti's Workshop Hunchback APCs in other 28mm sci fi skirmish games such as Tomorrow's War and Stargrunt II) I'm probably one of the few people that bought individual pvc Enforcers because of the platoons I was building (based on a current military platoon organization) and the need for multiple of certain specialty models. (The Enforcers and the terrain were 99% of the reason I pledged, and if Deadzone and the other figs are cool then it's just a bonus to me.)

You agree that communication should be improved- but what about the product?

If I receive a half metal team / half restic Nameless team for Dreadball and the height of the models is affected, similar to what Orlando posted with the Zees, then that is unacceptable imo... and should simply be acknowledged as such, and some simple remedy implemented (asking before shipping would've been best, but it's too late for that now). It's sweeping it under the rug that really bothers me...

 RiTides wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Just because an assumption is repeated often enough does make make it the truth, and Dakka is no exception to this.

Again, I'm in Dreadball... you know, the campaign that took money a long time ago

Do you acknowledge that their shipping metal models for some team sculpts but not others, without even notifying backers of the change prior to shipping is a problem? Or, in your view, is that OK?

I just want to be clear where we stand here...

Edit: Ninja'ed, @Deadleh- It sounds like that's exactly what happened... I have no issue with what you're saying. I'm saying with Mantic, one needs to not assume anything now...As you said yourself, they should have simply said some would be in restic, and later ones in plastic... but honestly I don't care about DZ as I'm not in that campaign, I care about Dreadball and there has been a complete bait and switch with the partial metal teams and that is being glossed over! And that is unacceptable...

No, absolutely not. For some reason I'm seen as a Mantic white knight or something because I enjoy Kings of War and their Orc models. My Dreadball stuff was all in pvc and I would be totally upset if no one told me I was getting metal and it arrived in metal.
But when people complain that they aren't getting stuff for free when no one told them they would, and other nonsense like demanding refunds for KS pledges (and that's my KS belief in general) then I'm like "WTF is wrong with you people".

Didn't Ronnie personally though say they'd refund anyone not happy with the Dreadball metal alternate poses? Hasn't the been posted a couple times now? I agree that is still sucks but they're taking responsibility for it, certainly.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 plastictrees wrote:
So they paid for restic Enforcers and hard plastic Enforcers? Do they use the same molds or did they just waste money on restic Enforcer production?
I've yet to encounter a miniature company that is more schizophrenic with their material choices and subsequent quality control.

Just throwing it out there that Mantic probably had the molds for the Enforcers and Plague done at the time of the KS starter (or at least in manufacture) as there was no way they weren't gonna get their initial goal. But then months later announcing they can tool hard plastic would mean that's the very beginning of a length process of digitally sculpting for injection, sprue layout, tests, and actual production... we probably won't see those til early next year.

Okay, glad to see we're on the same page then . Like I said, I just want it acknowledged... in all likelihood, I'll keep whatever I get, I'm just really hoping it's all in one material and thus consistent scale-wise (i.e. the main team and alternate poses being all metal, or all restic... I don't care if the other models like prone / big model / MVP are in a different material).

 RiTides wrote:
Okay, glad to see we're on the same page then . Like I said, I just want it acknowledged... in all likelihood, I'll keep whatever I get, I'm just really hoping it's all in one material and thus consistent scale-wise (i.e. the main team and alternate poses being all metal, or all restic... I don't care if the other models like prone / big model / MVP are in a different material).

Yeah, there's no reason to switcheroo without saying something, that's balls.

They really, really, really should hire an internet/PR guy whose whole job is to answer KS questions and be on Dakka, Warseer, and their own forums (which they barely even look at either!) so they can clear up crap like this before it boils over like obviously right now. To be fair they _just_ hired a dedicated customer service person (instead of everyone tossing the cust svc hat back and forth) so hopefully that's next.

Isn't that Jame's job wasn't he hired as a community manager?

EDIT Yep seems to be in his job description - http://www.linkedin.com/pub/james-hewitt/32/981/2a4

James only posts on facebook... I swear, half of his posts on the mantic forums are apologies for not posting on the mantic forums. :p

In any case, handling events and IRL stuff is generally what he gets up to I think, rather than getting involved in heated online debates.

I'm reasonably certain that Dakka and Warseer are read by Mantic staff, they just don't comment for obvious reasons. The latter doesn't really have any Mantic discussion anymore anyway due to the ban on any discussion of any product funded by KS, even months after said KS has ended. So it's just here, the mantic forums, facebook/twitter and IRL events to keep tabs on, and that last one is probably where the bulk of their views about customer opinion come from.

In general they have a good handle on it which makes the times it does go badly stand out even more.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So Mantic actually approved a full production run without seeing a single sample? That's mind-bogglingly stupid.

You think that's stupid? They actually approved a full production run without seeing a single sample for the second time AND after the first time resulted in some of the worst miniatures on the market and a massive loss of consumer confidence!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So Mantic actually approved a full production run without seeing a single sample? That's mind-bogglingly stupid.

You think that's stupid? They actually approved a full production run without seeing a single sample for the second time AND after the first time resulted in some of the worst miniatures on the market and a massive loss of consumer confidence!

Can't argue with that, some people over at Mantic need there heads checked out! I'm a Quality Control Engineer and would never say yes to a 'first off' without actually looking at a part!

RiTides wrote:I think we came close to simul-posting, so I'll reiterate here- there is a lot of "passing the buck" going on regarding materials. At no point did they ever say any Season 3 Dreadball models would be metal, yet they shipped them as such with no notice.

I just want the issues acknowledged... dodging them makes the issues much worse, imo. They won't go away on their own, they have to be dealt with head-on.

True, and the KS goal was for Restic figures. Season 3 teams included and they decided not to do part of them in PVC because they couldn't afford to do so or something. Which is bs, because once the stretch goal was passed, they were paid for, right?

judgedoug wrote:

Much later on, well after the campaign ended, did Mantic say "hey now we can make plastic sprues". At no point did they ever say "... that we'll give to you for free" or "that you can buy for a nickel next tuesday".

Would I be happy to get hard plastic sprues in my box? Sure sure! Would I be upset if I didn't? Nope because that's not what I pledged for.

Just because an assumption is repeated often enough does make make it the truth, and Dakka is no exception to this.

Hyperbole! It's fun for the whole family!

No one said they want them for free, or "for a nickel next Tuesday". I said that I want access to them. Either via an automatic upgrade (ie: all future sets will have styrene, so they will give them to us instead of the Restic), or via the second survey. Did you get it that time?

plastictrees wrote:So they paid for restic Enforcers and hard plastic Enforcers? Do they use the same molds or did they just waste money on restic Enforcer production?
I've yet to encounter a miniature company that is more schizophrenic with their material choices and subsequent quality control.

Yeah, makes a ton of sense, doesn't it?

scarletsquig wrote:So it's just here, the mantic forums, facebook/twitter and IRL events to keep tabs on, and that last one is probably where the bulk of their views about customer opinion come from.

Emphasis mine.

I don't think I could find a facepalm picture that adequately conveys my feelings about that. I truly hope that is not true.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:
No one said they want them for free, or "for a nickel next Tuesday". I said that I want access to them. Either via an automatic upgrade (ie: all future sets will have styrene, so they will give them to us instead of the Restic), or via the second survey. Did you get it that time?

No-one knows what's going to be on the second survey yet. It is very likely that they will be on the second survey. It's a big jump to go from "the original box is being sold as described and not with miniatures swapped out" to "they're not going to let us buy them at all and therefore they are a terrible company".

 scarletsquig wrote:
All we're waiting on is the unboxing pics which Mantic haven't had time to do yet I guess. It has been a really busy week with the Mars Attacks Ks, Deadzone shipping and Essen Speil.

Wouldn't surprise me if today and tomorrow are days off after the staff had a really busy weekend over in Germany.

Just returned from the Spiel in Essen. The Mantic booth was maybe 3 meter wide, a shelf on the left with Dreadball boxes and staff standing around. There was also a stack of Dreadball starter boxes at the booth of the German distributor. That was the complete presence of Mantic at the Spiel in Essen AFAIK. No KoW, no Warpath, no Deadzone, no Mars Attacks that I have seen (correct me if I am wrong). That was even sader than the GW presence (basically cardboard boxes full of Forge World and Black library stuff, a table in frond, some banners at the wall, that's it).

So whatever Mantic did at the Spiel in Essen, it wasn't much of a presentation. As a comparison: the near Micro Art booth was bigger and better than Mantic and GW combined, with demo games, painted miniatures and a designed booth with huge banners.

 Daedleh wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:
No one said they want them for free, or "for a nickel next Tuesday". I said that I want access to them. Either via an automatic upgrade (ie: all future sets will have styrene, so they will give them to us instead of the Restic), or via the second survey. Did you get it that time?

No-one knows what's going to be on the second survey yet. It is very likely that they will be on the second survey. It's a big jump to go from "the original box is being sold as described and not with miniatures swapped out" to "they're not going to let us buy them at all and therefore they are a terrible company".

Oh, make no mistake, I think they should be upgrading us. After all, we did it for them at not inconsiderable cost.

In my will-be-less-than-popular opinion the minute they knew they could afford styrene, the base game should have been delayed so that the upgraded components could be used. Kingdom Death, which had a larger dollar amount and backer pool did this and I have yet to hear a word of complaint about it.

Prioritizing deadlines over quality is really hurting these folks.

Also: Yay! More hyperbole! My favorite...

~Eric

Perhaps the metal/restic/hard plastic conversation should be moved out of this thread. Every time I come here looking for News & Rumors I have to look through 5 pages of complaints about materials and sculpts.

I am most certainly NOT making light of anyone's problems. I recently had an issue with a Mantic product myself, so I emailed them and it was taken care of pretty quickly and without any fuss. They seemed to be stand up people and I would suggest trying to resolve any problems directly with them as it will probably be far more effective than anything that can be done on Dakka.

It is news when a sculpt listed as restic is instead made in metal

Not for the ridiculous amount of time spent on it. People are unhappy with getting metal miniatures, Ronnie offered a refund/replacement. Grumble for a page but the issue is resolved.

People made assumptions about a material for some other figures, are corrected. Grumble for a page and resolved. That's all it needs.

I don't even know what to say to that. People post because they care. If you think Mantic "resolved" everything, then I don't think you and I are on the same page after all. That's exactly what I mean by passing the buck / sweeping it under the rug!

 RiTides wrote:
I don't even know what to say to that. People post because they care. If you think Mantic "resolved" everything, then I don't think you and I are on the same page after all. That's exactly what I mean by passing the buck / sweeping it under the rug!

So what do you propose they do to resolve the issue? They acknowledged the problem, apologise and offered a refund or replacement for anyone who wants one. That's the exact opposite of sweeping it under the rug.

At no point did they ever say any Season 3 Dreadball models would be metal, yet they shipped them as such with no notice.

Update 126 - it would have been emailed to your inbox. It says, Season 3 alts in metal. T

you're unhappy so I suggest doing as the fine folk on this board are suggesting and email them, and ask for a) a swap, b) a refund. they'll sort you out. it was never listed as restic. not in the stretch goal, not on the front page. the stretch was to produce models, they produced models. the assumption was, like everything else, it'd be plastic. they told us they've done metal, but if you're unhappy, they'll be sure to sort you out, they have done for other people after all.

plague:

An apology doesn't mean much. They have a history and pattern now. They should replace ALL metal sculpts of Zees with Restic, the size difference is horrible. But they're passing them off on whoever they can!

Instead of intentionally shipping subpar models to meet a deadline, Mantic needs to do QC Upfront. That is resolving things. Instead, most backers (likely even me!) will just take the models and be done with it. Doesn't make it resolved, just uncontested. Backers shouldn't have to contest these things anymore, Mantic knows better because they've made the same mistakes, and apologized, several times now in multiple campaigns.

Saying it's resolved, stop talking about it is why they're able to keep doing this, imo... enough is enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Black Nexus- A notice as/after they've shipped means very little! And if it's not safe to believe Mantic will produce in scale models (as the mixed metal and restic Zees are different heights!) then it's not safe to back their kickstarters, it's that simple.

 RiTides wrote:
An apology doesn't mean much. They have a history and pattern now.

Black Nexus- A notice as/after they've shipped means very little! And if it's not safe to believe Mantic will produce in scale models (as the mixed metal and restic Zees are different heights!) then it's not safe to back their kickstarters, it's that simple.

Exactly.

This is not good - Deadzone was looking to be a perfect opportunity for Mantic to stop pulling this crap and grow up as a company.

It is starting to look like they're preparing to burn their final bridge.