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I have played about 10 games in the 6th edition so im still relatively new, but i play vanilla marines and generally play very well but i have been feeling like besides the land raider everything else gets destroyed on the first turn and is just waste of points. I have been playing lots of horde armies lately even horde marines and i feel like 6 space marines is worth alot more than persay a predator that will probably blow up turn 1 or 2? obviously everyone is different and there are many strategies but does anyone else feel like tanks are going bye bye and air support is taking over..?

thoughts are appreciated

Meh, wait until your opponent brings a basilisk or a helldrake or something. You'll wish you had your vehicles then.

While I don't think that tanks overall got weaker, I'd say that low-AV ones did lose a bit, and high-AV ones gained a bit. As such, we're seeing a race to the top for AV values at my FLGS, which means that people are taking more anti-tank weapons, which means that low-AV armies are just screwed that much harder.

I usually run 3 rhinos, and they usually blow up turn 1. Lucky if they make it turn 2. I am getting a Land Raider, but still using 2 rhinos. I'll see how it goes.

I do feel the same, but I didn't play much in 5th edition, so I can't compare.

Kinda. One of my biggest complains is that 6th edition is clearly made so that every player has to buy a $70 (give or take) flyer in order to be even slightly competitive.

I'm actually planning on shelving my havocs for predators.

In most of the games I've played with havocs, my opponent will pay some attention to them and they fall over dead. Kind of like what I do to long fangs, oddly enough.

While I lose 25% of my guns, I'm planning on switching to a predator platform as they have better durability. AV13 is extremely hard to dislodge at range.

 Ailaros wrote:
Meh, wait until your opponent brings a basilisk or a helldrake or something. You'll wish you had your vehicles then.

While I don't think that tanks overall got weaker, I'd say that low-AV ones did lose a bit, and high-AV ones gained a bit. As such, we're seeing a race to the top for AV values at my FLGS, which means that people are taking more anti-tank weapons, which means that low-AV armies are just screwed that much harder.

Which hurts SM other than Land Raiders. But then again, that feeds the money machine. Your SM Preds and Razorbacks are getting wasted too fast? Buy this $70 Land Raider, maybe two, and you will be all set.

Tanks are hilariously easy to kill in 6th, often requiring half or less the average number of shots to destroy they'd require in 5th. AV12 vehicles for instance would need an "always on" alternating 3+/4+ cover save to equal their survivability (in terms of average number of enemy attacks needed to destroy them) *in the open* under 5th against something like an Autocannon or Krak missile.

Granted cover saves are easier to get in 6th but they're more typically 5+ sv's than 5th's 4+, and getting cover wasn't exactly hard in 5th.

To say nothing of the fact that a unit with krak grenades will practically auto-kill any non-walker/rear AV10 vehicle (95% of vehicles in the game) if they get into it and it doesn't matter if it's a flat out moving Holofield Falcon or a stationary Ork Trukk.



Some will counter that this has been somewhat balanced with tanks not being able to be silenced by a glancing hit, but quite often they're simply dead instead of silenced, especially 2 HP vehicles.

It is difficult to feel positive about tanks in 6th edition.

IDK, me and my IG buddies get tanked every game.

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Meh, wait until your opponent brings a basilisk or a helldrake or something. You'll wish you had your vehicles then.

While I don't think that tanks overall got weaker, I'd say that low-AV ones did lose a bit, and high-AV ones gained a bit. As such, we're seeing a race to the top for AV values at my FLGS, which means that people are taking more anti-tank weapons, which means that low-AV armies are just screwed that much harder.

Which hurts SM other than Land Raiders. But then again, that feeds the money machine. Your SM Preds and Razorbacks are getting wasted too fast? Buy this $70 Land Raider, maybe two, and you will be all set.

Except that Land Raiders aren't very good.

why dont you think land raiders arent good?

I think it really depends on the vehicle. As Ailaros has said, high AV things have gotten better as they are still hard to pen at range and now glances won't prevent them from shooting. Also, artillery pieces that don't need line of sight are always nice. You can keep them from getting shot while you snipe out banners, ignore defense lines and hunt for characters.

I just brought a 10 vehicle list to TSFT in Seattle and did reasonably well with it. The key I found is not to mix and match. If you're going mech, go all mech. If you have some vehicles and some infantry people can use the appropriate gun to kill the appropriate target. Anti-personnel weapons kill your troops while anti-vehicle weapons kill your vehicles. If you're all meched up, your opponent can't use all his anti-horde weapons. In deployments like hammer and anvil your opponent has to slog pretty far to get his melta weapons to bear (just stay away from the sides where outflankers can come from).

Plus with everyone going all in on infantry, a lot of people aren't ready for 10+ vehicles. If you bring 3 rhinos in a mostly foot list, those are just 3 easy kill points and guaranteed first blood.

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
why dont you think land raiders arent good?

Slow, expensive, not enough firepower.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Tanks are hilariously easy to kill in 6th, often requiring half or less the average number of shots to destroy they'd require in 5th. AV12 vehicles for instance would need an "always on" alternating 3+/4+ cover save to equal their survivability (in terms of average number of enemy attacks needed to destroy them) *in the open* under 5th against something like an Autocannon or Krak missile.

Granted cover saves are easier to get in 6th but they're more typically 5+ sv's than 5th's 4+, and getting cover wasn't exactly hard in 5th.

To say nothing of the fact that a unit with krak grenades will practically auto-kill any non-walker/rear AV10 vehicle (95% of vehicles in the game) if they get into it and it doesn't matter if it's a flat out moving Holofield Falcon or a stationary Ork Trukk.



Some will counter that this has been somewhat balanced with tanks not being able to be silenced by a glancing hit, but quite often they're simply dead instead of silenced, especially 2 HP vehicles.

It is difficult to feel positive about tanks in 6th edition.

I actually feel very positive about tanks in 6th edition . . . then again I play Tau. Tau tanks have a 2+/3+ cover save that is on almost all the time, ignore all terrain and hit first during assaults if upgraded properly.

AV 13 is not hilariously easy to kill at range. Especially with people packing autocannons and plasma. No one wants to cough up for lascannons. This is speaking as an imperial. Obviously, dark lances and railguns will do the job.

Personally, I find that my auto/las predators perform much better than my BA 5 man dev units. I basically have quit using devastators, due to immobility and vulnerability to small arms fire.

Martel732 wrote:
AV 13 is not hilariously easy to kill at range.

+1. AV:13 and 14 really stand out. Below that it's rather pathetic, but hey, that's what an ADL is for.

Well your standard land raider is a transport armed with some of the longest range anti-tank weapons in the SM codex. So you either run it forward and waste the range or you sit back and waste the transport capacity. Either way you aren't using a capability that you paid points for to its fullest effect.

The crusader isn't as bad because you can put a larger terminator squad in it and its weapons are more conducive to its role. But it is still more than double the cost of a dakka pred with only a marginal increase in firepower. Unless you are running terminators to the front, get 2 preds.

And then there was the redeemer... For starters, the model is so big that you almost have to waste potms to fire your 2 flame templates at different targets because there's no way to get them on the same target most of the time. The biggest problem is the fact that its main weapons system is a flame template. So you drive forward and plan to shoot, disembark, then assault. So you are counting on 2 flame templates to clear off enough table space to place your squad inside more than 1" away from enemy models. Good luck with that...

So now our redeemer is in a situation where it can either unload its squad or shoot, but not both. So half of the capability that you paid for is, as with the standard raider, wasted.

So as you can see, the only way to use a land raider where you are going to be able to use its full range of abilities every turn is the crusader taxi of doom. Otherwise you are paying points for something that you aren't using.

Yeah, I don't get it either. It has two twin-linked lascannons and a multimelta, and can split fire, and can keep a squad of scoring units safe with 4HP of all-around AV14.

Sounds like a hell of a deal to me.

CrowSplat wrote:
Well your standard land raider is a transport armed with some of the longest range anti-tank weapons in the SM codex. So you either run it forward and waste the range or you sit back and waste the transport capacity. Either way you aren't using a capability that you paid points for to its fullest effect.

I would keep my scout/tactical squad inside it during the game, then pop them out late game to grab that objective the land raider has been sitting on.

That will keep the squad alive and not helldrake food. Nom Nom Nom

 labmouse42 wrote:

CrowSplat wrote:
Well your standard land raider is a transport armed with some of the longest range anti-tank weapons in the SM codex. So you either run it forward and waste the range or you sit back and waste the transport capacity. Either way you aren't using a capability that you paid points for to its fullest effect.

I would keep my scout/tactical squad inside it during the game, then pop them out late game to grab that objective the land raider has been sitting on.

That will keep the squad alive and not helldrake food. Nom Nom Nom

Except most people don't play against chaos marines all the time. and for the price of that land raider you could just buy another tac squad in a rhino. Or for a little bit more, a razorback, which can have a twin-linked lascannon and a mm.

I play with Tyranids so I'm never going to see the negative side of using AV units. I play roughly 80% of my games with IG players that LOVE to go Mech. Almost also full Mech. I'm talking 8-12 tanks, and 3 Vendetta coming off Reserves. He usually parking lots his army with LRBT and has 14 AV front and 13 AV Sides, with his Chimeras (5-6 usually) in the middle of this. He usually deploys perfect and I can never get a shot on anything less than AV13. This means, I almost have to run Zoanthropes with S10, Lances. With Hiveguard, I would need 5+ to glance, 6+ to pene... That's not realistic with 2 shots at 24". I cannot rely on that. If he gets to go first, I better hide my Zoanthropes, cause if he kills them, I practically lost. The only other way I can kill AV13 with nids (without using elite slots) is my MCs. Yay... I get smash S10 hits with reroll on the AP... but I have to get them to his tanks. And with 3 vendettas, 2-4 LRBT's, 1-2 Demolishers and 6 Chimeras with Melta/Plasma... they aren't going to make it.

I also played against a CSM player, he's relatively new to 6th, but he simply ran a lot of fast choice units and 3 rhinos with troops inside. Yes, I popped them with my 12 TL Devourer shots no problem, but I had to pop those instead of lighting up the marines with S6 shots. Rhinos are worth it, trust me. Stop looking at the negative.. Nancy! (Sorry I had to).

The point is, deploy better, use AV13/14 in your lists, or just run 5-6 rhinos and stop crying about how easy it is to pop them. Ailaros had it right. When you see basilisks and heldrakes... you'll want your Rhinos back. If someone ran Gunline and no Mech against my 2000 point list, I'd be so, so, so happy. Lol

Odd, I've found vehicles a lot more useful.
Maybe it's because I run Guard so I get lots of good options.
With the addition of the new Dark Angels power field, my mec guard have a new favorite ally.

Having a wall of heavy armor with a 4+ invul is pretty brutal.

-Matt

Giving assault terminators an assault range of 12" + 2D6 has utility against many lists. And when the crusader parks and shoots, some troops go bye bye. Yes, some lists own it, but what can you do in 6th?

Vehicles haven't gotten worse, they're differently fragile.

By that I mean things that weren't a threat before now need to be accommodated and other things that were previously a major issue are less of a concern.

I think perhaps you haven't changed your playing style very much from fifth, and that's the root cause of your issues. I wish I could offer advice on how to do things differently but I'm still working in that myself.

Are people playing games where AT guns besides plasma and autocannons are extinct entirely? Because I still see lascannons and meltaguns fairly routinely, along with lances and railguns and the like. Just because not everything is packing only meltaguns doesn't mean they aren't still quite common weapons.

 azreal13 wrote:
Vehicles haven't gotten worse, they're differently fragile.

By that I mean things that weren't a threat before now need to be accommodated and other things that were previously a major issue are less of a concern.

I think perhaps you haven't changed your playing style very much from fifth, and that's the root cause of your issues. I wish I could offer advice on how to do things differently but I'm still working in that myself.

They very definitely have gotten worse. They are significantly easier to kill, are practically auto-killed by the most common basic troops in the game in CC, and no longer can impact mission objectives in any way except specialized missions and only certain FoC slots, along with transports losing a whole ton of utility and smoke launchers becoming less useful.

They gained only in that glancing hits do not roll on a table and can get cover easier.

And on "stunned" they can still snap fire. Important to remember with tanks that they kick harder then 5th until they die.

 Niiai wrote:
And on "stunned" they can still snap fire. Important to remember with tanks that they kick harder then 5th until they die.

True, it's something, but that's not *much* more than in 5th (and depending on what the tank is armed with may not be useful at all, e.g. Vindicator, basic LRBT, Demolisher, Basilisk, etc), and very often then end up just being dead whereas in 5th they'd have lived a lot longer and kept trucking.

I'd argue it like this...

Better in 6th Edition

Fire support tanks (especially high AV fire support tanks)
Artillery
Fliers (obviously)

Worse in 6th Edition

Transports (especially low AV transports)
Assault Vehicles
Hydras
DE Vehicles
Low AV walker squadrons (Kanz and War Walkers)


Fire support tanks and Artillery both got better due to the removal of stun-locking. Transports got worse because of the rules regarding disembarking/embarking. Transport tactics as a whole, including the old Rhino Wall, have really taken a hit. DE vehicles took a huge hit.

Yes, vehicles got nerfed, but they needed it. I can't tell you how stupid it was to take out AV 10 in 5th because of the magic damage table. Can't roll a 5 or 6? You're boned!

Even still, transports still provide protection from blasts, templates, and small arms. People (like me) who invest in ranged antitank are lacking in other areas. (like HTH capability, like me) I have seen plenty of lists whose vast majority of firepower is 24" or less. You just never know what you will get.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Transports (especially low AV transports)

Transports got worse because of the rules regarding disembarking/embarking. Transport tactics as a whole, including the old Rhino Wall, have really taken a hit. DE vehicles took a huge hit.

You know, I've been using Rhinos for my CSM lately, and I'm starting to really dig em again.

The hit you take when they blow up probably wont do much. They are still so cheap it does not matter much if they do blow up.

What they do allow is for you to move a squad of marines 18" a turn, which is extremely useful when your trying to get linebreaker or an objective on turn 4.

They also allow you to do some fun blocking once your marines have departed. I've used 4 of them before to block a land raider for a turn.

You can also move up 12" on turn one by moving the rhino up 6" then moving 6" forward. This can put you in bolter range of most things.

The biggest drawback now with rhinos is its easy to give up first blood, and when your squad is 'stunned' from the rhino. Everything else is gravy.

This thread is bizarre. I find myself mech spamming with GK, and with IG, I'm feeling myself go more from foot lists to the chimera spam lists similar to 5th ed netlists. Either my local meta is skewed, or everyone elses is. Given that it's Adepticon planning season, I'm really hoping it's everyone elses.