Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Pony_law wrote:
Has the break down of Abbadon v. Papa Smurf been done? factoring combat tactics to allow Papa smurf to keep shooting his ap 2 twin linked bolter and charging abbadon? Seems like he might be a good contender.

Pappa smurf must beat Abbadon in an init check to use combat tactics.

Hes Init 5, while Abbadon it init 6. Since he must beat Abbadon, not tie him, the odds are not good that he can fall back and shoot Abbadon in the face.

Also, remember that bolter is not that great vs Abbadon.
It hits 5/6 of the time, wounds 1/3 of the time, and Abbadon saves 1/2 the time for a whopping 5/36 (13.8%) to wound Abbadon with his bolter. Even with two shots, its not really good odds.

Abby is in Terminator armor, so any unit wishing to fall back from him automatically does so successfully.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Abby is in Terminator armor, so any unit wishing to fall back from him automatically does so successfully.

Excellent point! We keep forgetting the terminator armor it seems.

 Exergy wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Pony_law wrote:
Has the break down of Abbadon v. Papa Smurf been done? factoring combat tactics to allow Papa smurf to keep shooting his ap 2 twin linked bolter and charging abbadon? Seems like he might be a good contender.

Pappa smurf must beat Abbadon in an init check to use combat tactics.

Hes Init 5, while Abbadon it init 6. Since he must beat Abbadon, not tie him, the odds are not good that he can fall back and shoot Abbadon in the face.

Also, remember that bolter is not that great vs Abbadon.
It hits 5/6 of the time, wounds 1/3 of the time, and Abbadon saves 1/2 the time for a whopping 5/36 (13.8%) to wound Abbadon with his bolter. Even with two shots, its not really good odds.

and it then allows abby to charge and get +2 attacks, although abby will take overwatch. It also only happens if Abby beats Papa smurf, which is likely but not guarenteed.

a couple of points in this seem off to me. First Papa smurf is BS5 and his bolters are twin linked so he is hitting twice the vast majority of the time (even better than 5/6). Second I think you would only break and leave combat when your turn follows thus papa smurf is constantly charging and Abbadon never gets another charge.

Pony_law wrote:
a couple of points in this seem off to me. First Papa smurf is BS5 and his bolters are twin linked so he is hitting twice the vast majority of the time (even better than 5/6). Second I think you would only break and leave combat when your turn follows thus papa smurf is constantly charging and Abbadon never gets another charge.

Are they twin-linked?

p84 C:SM Codex
These are a matched pair of power fists. They also contain a pair of integrated bolters that can be fired with the following profile.
Range : 24
STR : 4
AP : 2
Type : Assault 2
I see nothing there that says "Twin-Linked" Is it somewhere else in the codex?

 labmouse42 wrote:

Pony_law wrote:
a couple of points in this seem off to me. First Papa smurf is BS5 and his bolters are twin linked so he is hitting twice the vast majority of the time (even better than 5/6). Second I think you would only break and leave combat when your turn follows thus papa smurf is constantly charging and Abbadon never gets another charge.

Are they twin-linked?

p84 C:SM Codex
These are a matched pair of power fists. They also contain a pair of integrated bolters that can be fired with the following profile.
Range : 24
STR : 4
AP : 2
Type : Assault 2
I see nothing there that says "Twin-Linked" Is it somewhere else in the codex?

Doesn't papa smurf have re-roll all to hits and wounds or something?

I think its just wounds. Which is kinda lame given that he has powerfists.

I'm fairly certain I know who'll win, but how would a Lone Wolf with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Terminator Armor (not that that makes a difference here) fare against Abbadon. I'd do it myself, but I don't know Abbadon's stats.

See how good chaos is? Not only do they have cookies, they make your characters bad ass!

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm fairly certain I know who'll win, but how would a Lone Wolf with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Terminator Armor (not that that makes a difference here) fare against Abbadon. I'd do it myself, but I don't know Abbadon's stats.

its really pretty easy. Abby's WS = High
Abby's S = 5 or 8
Abby's T = Plague Marine
Abby's wounds = same as vect :(
Abby's attacks = how many dice do you have?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
See how good chaos is? Not only do they have cookies, they make your characters bad ass!

Chaos is a kelly book, some outrageous cheese spaced in between a lot of mediocre units and more than enough epic fail units.

 Exergy wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm fairly certain I know who'll win, but how would a Lone Wolf with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Terminator Armor (not that that makes a difference here) fare against Abbadon. I'd do it myself, but I don't know Abbadon's stats.

its really pretty easy. Abby's WS = High
Abby's S = 5 or 8
Abby's T = Plague Marine
Abby's wounds = same as vect :(
Abby's attacks = how many dice do you have?

With 3++ and FNP the LW is pretty hardy. Low attacks, but with Abbadon's T5 he gets to reroll to hit and wounds on 2+. While I don't expect the LW to win, I'm interested to see how many wounds the LW is likely to chip off him, and how many rounds he'd survive.

I know better than to ask what the exact numbers are for stats though -_-

Edit: Not sure if I'm correct, but I actually had the LW doing more wounds per round than Abaddon (1:0.7) for the initial round, then roughly the same thereafter. It's just that Abaddon has...well more wounds.

How about a well kitted wolf lord?
Runic Armour
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Thunderwolf Mount
Wolftooth Necklace
Saga of the Beastslayer

Hits on 3s with rerolls, wounds on a 2, 2+/3++, T5 with 5A base (6 on the charge along with a HoW attack). T5 gets rid of the need for EW, and also frees up saga of the beastslayer for rerolls. Coming in at 245, he'll give Abby a run for his money!

Aleph-Sama wrote:
How about a well kitted wolf lord?
Runic Armour
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Thunderwolf Mount
Wolftooth Necklace
Saga of the Beastslayer

Hits on 3s with rerolls, wounds on a 2, 2+/3++, T5 with 5A base (6 on the charge along with a HoW attack). T5 gets rid of the need for EW, and also frees up saga of the beastslayer for rerolls. Coming in at 245, he'll give Abby a run for his money!

We just covered this last page.

They will, on average kill each other in the same round. However, this will never happen. Your not going to take saga of the beastslayer on your thunder wolf lord. If you do, every Ork Warboss will ID him. Your going to take saga of the bear.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Aleph-Sama wrote:
How about a well kitted wolf lord?
Runic Armour
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Thunderwolf Mount
Wolftooth Necklace
Saga of the Beastslayer

Hits on 3s with rerolls, wounds on a 2, 2+/3++, T5 with 5A base (6 on the charge along with a HoW attack). T5 gets rid of the need for EW, and also frees up saga of the beastslayer for rerolls. Coming in at 245, he'll give Abby a run for his money!

We just covered this last page.

They will, on average kill each other in the same round. However, this will never happen. Your not going to take saga of the beastslayer on your thunder wolf lord. If you do, every Ork Warboss will ID him. Your going to take saga of the bear.

Actually it will happen. I take Saga of the beast slayer more often now in 6th as it is usually more useful. Also, when I run with TWC I bring at least 3 TW lords, so I would have warrior born, beast slayer and bear saga lords

 Red Corsair wrote:
Actually it will happen. I take Saga of the beast slayer more often now in 6th as it is usually more useful. Also, when I run with TWC I bring at least 3 TW lords, so I would have warrior born, beast slayer and bear saga lords

You really bring 600-700 points of lords?

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Actually it will happen. I take Saga of the beast slayer more often now in 6th as it is usually more useful. Also, when I run with TWC I bring at least 3 TW lords, so I would have warrior born, beast slayer and bear saga lords

You really bring 600-700 points of lords?

mmm DE archon fun.

 Exergy wrote:

you replyed that no, a DP with a murder sword could not take the swarmlord, because he is generally immune to ID. This is like saying that no, a landraider has nothing to fear from a brick of necron warriors because generally landraiders are immune to small arms fire. See how that works out.
I suppose you didnt know anything about the murder sword, that it causes ID that the swarmlord cannot ignore and thus will likely kill the swarmlord pretty easily. Don't pass judgement if you dont know.

And then you realize what Iron Arm does, and your own argument rears its head against you, ready to devour you.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Summary
Abbadon, simply put, is nearly the best IC in the game for duels. As an added bonus, he also can wreck entire squads at a time. While the CSM codex may be lack-luster in may ways, it is solid in one sense -- Abbadon will take any other IC's lunch money and send him home crying.
Sometimes luck does play a role, and Abbadon will die to a grot, but when doing mathammer we will go off averages.

So would it be bad to point out that I was able to down him this past Sunday with a squad of 9 Nobz, 1 Painboy, and an Ork Warboss?


Ork HQ/Elite Squad: (565ish points total)
1 Warboss ('Eavy Armor, Cybork, TL Shoota, PK)
1 Nob ("Eavy Armor, Cybork, TL Shoota, PK, WAAAGH Banner)
8 Nobz ('Eavy Armor, Cybork, TL Shoota, Big Choppas)
1 Painboy ("Urly Syringe, Cybork, gives unit Feel No Pain)


What Happened:
Black Crusade rules/scenario. I had all of the Chaos off of the board except for Abbadon who'd deflected pretty much everything I threw at him at that point. All of the Chaos I had tabled the last turn came right back on over my HQ squad since I was deep into my opponent's deployment zone. He multi-assaulted with everything that he had and it came down to Abbadon vs a Nob, Nob with PK and Banner, and the Painboy, who were able to down him. Ultimately, it was the Power Klaw that took him down.

Points Cost:
Yes, all of that Orky Badness is in the 500pt price range. But when one considers that I still had about 210 points of Orks over 3 models still standing after going toe-to-toe with Abb (who is in the 400pt price range if I recall). 400+ Chaos Lord > 355 Orks was still a pretty good trade-off in my opinion.

 DieselJester wrote:
But when one considers that I still had about 210 points of Orks over 3 models still standing after going toe-to-toe with Abb (who is in the 400pt price range if I recall). 400+ Chaos Lord > 355 Orks was still a pretty good trade-off in my opinion.

Under 300 points actually.

 DieselJester wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Summary
Abbadon, simply put, is nearly the best IC in the game for duels. As an added bonus, he also can wreck entire squads at a time. While the CSM codex may be lack-luster in may ways, it is solid in one sense -- Abbadon will take any other IC's lunch money and send him home crying.
Sometimes luck does play a role, and Abbadon will die to a grot, but when doing mathammer we will go off averages.

So would it be bad to point out that I was able to down him this past Sunday with a squad of 9 Nobz, 1 Painboy, and an Ork Warboss?


Ork HQ/Elite Squad: (565ish points total)
1 Warboss ('Eavy Armor, Cybork, TL Shoota, PK)
1 Nob ("Eavy Armor, Cybork, TL Shoota, PK, WAAAGH Banner)
8 Nobz ('Eavy Armor, Cybork, TL Shoota, Big Choppas)
1 Painboy ("Urly Syringe, Cybork, gives unit Feel No Pain)


What Happened:
Black Crusade rules/scenario. I had all of the Chaos off of the board except for Abbadon who'd deflected pretty much everything I threw at him at that point. All of the Chaos I had tabled the last turn came right back on over my HQ squad since I was deep into my opponent's deployment zone. He multi-assaulted with everything that he had and it came down to Abbadon vs a Nob, Nob with PK and Banner, and the Painboy, who were able to down him. Ultimately, it was the Power Klaw that took him down.

Points Cost:
Yes, all of that Orky Badness is in the 500pt price range. But when one considers that I still had about 210 points of Orks over 3 models still standing after going toe-to-toe with Abb (who is in the 400pt price range if I recall). 400+ Chaos Lord > 355 Orks was still a pretty good trade-off in my opinion.

The point is character per character, not a squad. Many squads can take abby down, for far less than 500 points

abby is less than 300 points. He and a remotely competent squad will liquify your nobs while the warboss either sits out or fights a chump champion.

 Exergy wrote:

 DieselJester wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Summary
Abbadon, simply put, is nearly the best IC in the game for duels. As an added bonus, he also can wreck entire squads at a time. While the CSM codex may be lack-luster in may ways, it is solid in one sense -- Abbadon will take any other IC's lunch money and send him home crying.
Sometimes luck does play a role, and Abbadon will die to a grot, but when doing mathammer we will go off averages.

So would it be bad to point out that I was able to down him this past Sunday with a squad of 9 Nobz, 1 Painboy, and an Ork Warboss?


Ork HQ/Elite Squad: (565ish points total)
1 Warboss ('Eavy Armor, Cybork, TL Shoota, PK)
1 Nob ("Eavy Armor, Cybork, TL Shoota, PK, WAAAGH Banner)
8 Nobz ('Eavy Armor, Cybork, TL Shoota, Big Choppas)
1 Painboy ("Urly Syringe, Cybork, gives unit Feel No Pain)


What Happened:
Black Crusade rules/scenario. I had all of the Chaos off of the board except for Abbadon who'd deflected pretty much everything I threw at him at that point. All of the Chaos I had tabled the last turn came right back on over my HQ squad since I was deep into my opponent's deployment zone. He multi-assaulted with everything that he had and it came down to Abbadon vs a Nob, Nob with PK and Banner, and the Painboy, who were able to down him. Ultimately, it was the Power Klaw that took him down.

Points Cost:
Yes, all of that Orky Badness is in the 500pt price range. But when one considers that I still had about 210 points of Orks over 3 models still standing after going toe-to-toe with Abb (who is in the 400pt price range if I recall). 400+ Chaos Lord > 355 Orks was still a pretty good trade-off in my opinion.

The point is character per character, not a squad. Many squads can take abby down, for far less than 500 points

abby is less than 300 points. He and a remotely competent squad will liquify your nobs while the warboss either sits out or fights a chump champion.

*shrug* either way. Abby didn't just walk through my squad. Had it been a squad of just Boyz, then Abby woulda had a field day with them probably. I was just sad that I couldn't land a SAG shot on him and roll boxcars! LOL.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

you replyed that no, a DP with a murder sword could not take the swarmlord, because he is generally immune to ID. This is like saying that no, a landraider has nothing to fear from a brick of necron warriors because generally landraiders are immune to small arms fire. See how that works out.
I suppose you didnt know anything about the murder sword, that it causes ID that the swarmlord cannot ignore and thus will likely kill the swarmlord pretty easily. Don't pass judgement if you dont know.

And then you realize what Iron Arm does, and your own argument rears its head against you, ready to devour you.

In that case then you are aware that the DP can get iron arm too? You give a DP iron arm and a black mace and you have one of the scariest CC monster possible.

krazykishere wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

you replyed that no, a DP with a murder sword could not take the swarmlord, because he is generally immune to ID. This is like saying that no, a landraider has nothing to fear from a brick of necron warriors because generally landraiders are immune to small arms fire. See how that works out.
I suppose you didnt know anything about the murder sword, that it causes ID that the swarmlord cannot ignore and thus will likely kill the swarmlord pretty easily. Don't pass judgement if you dont know.

And then you realize what Iron Arm does, and your own argument rears its head against you, ready to devour you.

In that case then you are aware that the DP can get iron arm too? You give a DP iron arm and a black mace and you have one of the scariest CC monster possible.

i wasnt aware that Swarmlords and Daemon Princes has a 100% chance to roll the "iron arms" power and cast it successfully every turn. Seems I need to do further investigation on the consequences.

Swarmlords have a very high chance of rolling Iron Arm every game. Add to that the fact that it will be cast successfully 11/12 times and it's extremely reliable.

Demon Princes have a smaller chance to get it in the first place and a lower chance to cast it every turn, significantly lower when within 12" of the Swarmlord. Not nearly as reliable.

10/12 times. Double sixes and 11's are bad. But you're right, swarmy has a very good chance of getting iron arm. DP you can never count on him rolling it as he only gets 2 rolls on biomancy at the most.

 skycapt44 wrote:
10/12 times. Double sixes and 11's are bad. But you're right, swarmy has a very good chance of getting iron arm. DP you can never count on him rolling it as he only gets 2 rolls on biomancy at the most.

11 and 12 is 3 chances out of 36.
33/36 chance to succeed is 11/12.

This is a if they have whatever as far as I am aware. As for the casting factor with a spell familiar he rarely fails. Also if I really wanted to talk crazy I coulda said Iron Arm and Invisibility whaha. That would be truely insane. I am not trying to say its likely, just possible.

rigeld2 wrote:

 skycapt44 wrote:
10/12 times. Double sixes and 11's are bad. But you're right, swarmy has a very good chance of getting iron arm. DP you can never count on him rolling it as he only gets 2 rolls on biomancy at the most.

11 and 12 is 3 chances out of 36.
33/36 chance to succeed is 11/12.

Yep that's right, my bad.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm fairly certain I know who'll win, but how would a Lone Wolf with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Terminator Armor (not that that makes a difference here) fare against Abbadon. I'd do it myself, but I don't know Abbadon's stats.

The Lone Wolf would probably be mulched before he could even strike, depending on how many attacks Abbadon throws out, but if he gets a chance to strike back then he'll probably put a wound or 2 on Abbadon... and then die next round.

rigeld2 wrote:
Swarmlords have a very high chance of rolling Iron Arm every game. Add to that the fact that it will be cast successfully 11/12 times and it's extremely reliable.

Demon Princes have a smaller chance to get it in the first place and a lower chance to cast it every turn, significantly lower when within 12" of the Swarmlord. Not nearly as reliable.

And he has a 2/3 chance of getting Iron Arm in the first place. And if he gets Warp Speed or Endurance on top of that, then he's even more brutal.

With an estimate of 7 attacks (I don't know how many base attacks Abbadon has) at str:5, ap2, 3++, 5+ FNP is very resilient. I'd be surprised if Abaddon managed to put more than 1 wound down. I got him doing 0.73 wounds per round.

The math says he will survive 2-3 rounds, the second round hitting at initative 1 with Abaddon. So an 85pt model can knock off 1/2 of Abaddon's wounds, and 3 if he's lucky. Not bad at all.

Anybody already mentioned Skarbrand? I know he is no IC but the swarmlord was also mentioned so... Not considering stuff like Iron Arm Skarbrand will wipe the floor with both Abbaddon and the Swarmlod