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Shotguns are widely available and somewhat easier to feed in a crisis than .223 antiperson guns like the ar15.

Turkey makes a number of ar15 formfactor .410 shotguns, as well as some ar15 formfactor 12 gauges.

Keltec makes the ksg (14 to 20 rounds internal magazine) and the ksg25 (25 to 40 rounds internal magazine) which can more than match the firing capacity of an ar15, at least for a single magazine. If you shoot more than 40 rounds of anything in self defense, its likely someoen will arrest you for unnecessarily going over the line into vigilantism.

Hickok45 reviewd both ksg and ksg25, and I invite folk to look for his comparison of a doublebarrel to an ar15 for home defense, simply because he walks through the issues that the ar15 shines in for that role.

I have a KSG that I've used for feral hog hunting before. It was nice to have A LOT of ammo, and be able to switch back and forth between 00 Buck and slugs. In retrospect though, I think I'd have preferred a semi-auto Ak style 12 gauge. We found a pocket of pigs eating, and after that first shot rang out we had like 2 seconds to blast anything that moved (got 5 of them between the three of us).

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Shotguns are widely available and somewhat easier to feed in a crisis than .223 antiperson guns like the ar15.

Turkey makes a number of ar15 formfactor .410 shotguns, as well as some ar15 formfactor 12 gauges.

Keltec makes the ksg (14 to 20 rounds internal magazine) and the ksg25 (25 to 40 rounds internal magazine) which can more than match the firing capacity of an ar15, at least for a single magazine. If you shoot more than 40 rounds of anything in self defense, its likely someoen will arrest you for unnecessarily going over the line into vigilantism.

Hickok45 reviewd both ksg and ksg25, and I invite folk to look for his comparison of a doublebarrel to an ar15 for home defense, simply because he walks through the issues that the ar15 shines in for that role.

It's late at night here so my numbers might be off, but an M193 5.56mm weighs 11g, an M855 weights 12g. A shotgun shell weighs in at 45g. 25 rounds of shotgun ammo is 1.1kg of extra weight. 40 just under 2kg. 1.8kg. That's 167 rounds of 5.56mm, obviously without the mags to hold it. For the same weight, using Magpul Gen 3's you can carry 105 rounds of 5.56mm in 4 magazines. I mean you REALLY shouldn't go through 105 rounds in an SD situation but claiming you can use a heavy shotgun with an even heavier load as an argument against a light AR is..... misplaced. The KSG25 weighs in at 9.25lbs, while the 6920 weighs 6.95lbs unloaded. The 6920 is 2.5" shorter than the KSG, even before using a short stock setup or a short barrel on the AR.

There are some semi shotguns that may work, like I said earlier. Personally having used some I'd go Saiga or Vepr over an AR style, but if you like the AR style then rock on dude. But they are all still big guns. The A-12 is a 39.75" gun that weighs 8.75lbs. I've got limited trigger time on an AR style shotgun but have shot plenty of Saiga rounds.

Kayback wrote:
I mean you REALLY shouldn't go through 105 rounds in an SD situation

....eh, that would depend on the weapons and numbers deployed.

The oldest gun I've used is my Mosin Nagant. 1942 Izhevsk manufacture.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Shotguns are widely available and somewhat easier to feed in a crisis than .223 antiperson guns like the ar15.

I mean, I guess it depends on how you mean it? If you mean loading shells into a breech is about as difficult under stress and loading individual cartridges into a mag, then sure, I'd agree, the shells are bigger.

If you mean loading shells into a breech is easier under stress than slapping a mag in, then... I really, really disagree. The mag is much larger and easier to handle than fumbling for shells, and you get 30 rounds with one interaction vs 1 (half of one, if we're racking a pump).

I would never trust my life to a KSG, regardless of the whole shotgun VS AR debate. They seem prone to malfunctions/short shucking beyond the norm.

 Ouze wrote:

If you mean loading shells into a breech is easier under stress than slapping a mag in, then... I really, really disagree. The mag is much larger and easier to handle than fumbling for shells, and you get 30 rounds with one interaction vs 1 (half of one, if we're racking a pump).
.

The thing they struggle with in a panic isn't the clip itself,usually, it's the catch to eject the previous clip. Or they try to put the clip in backwards, or they load an empty clip. If there's a way to feth something up, someone in a panic will do it.

Sure, but again it is easy to keep your chosen "bump in the night" gun already loaded with a full mag. You are far less likely to need to reload at all with an AR vs a shotgun.

Another thing that bears remembering is that most shotguns in the US will come with their tube magazine 'gimped' for hunting when you first purchase the shotgun. Even if a shotgun can hold 5 or 8 rounds, it will come off the shelf with a rod in its tube to only hold 2. The uninformed or lazy individual might not bother to remove this rod. This is because most states only allow you to have 3 rounds in the gun while hunting game birds or waterfowl with shotguns.

I started out with shotguns and large caliber rifles. I didn't own an AR15 for a long time (was raised to call it a "poodle shooter"). Shotgun puts out 9 pellets instantly, good as an SMG was the saying. 308 is a "real" battle rifle... etc...

When I finally tried an AR15, and got one to work with, the thing I most came to appreciate was stability and speed of follow up. Getting multiple shots lined up quickly was noticably faster than with my .308s and 12 guages. In many cases the ergo was better or could be better fine tuned.

I'm not stuck on any particuarly platform over another, anyone can make just about anything work for them with enough practice, but I've come down to finding wisdom in a good 9mm pistol and a good AR15 for anything having to do with personal defense. I prefer the AR15 over the pistol again for the stability and follow up. Whatever you pick I think it's critical to train with operation and malfunction clearing under stress though. That usually means paying money for some good training, or if you're lucky spending time with some good friends who are willing to teach, but the aim is to make operation and fixing familiar enough that it's trained under your fingers rather than something you need to think about. (Expensive given ammo supply/cost these days).


Hunting is another matter. For most hog or larger I'm leaving the AR15 behind and going to 308 or 30-06. Never did get into avian hunting... easier to keep chickens maybe

Like I said, anyone can make just about anything work... key is try several different flavors with an open mind, then get good training to lock in skill and refine setup.

Hog hunting with 5.56 is fine, though I would prefer something bigger. I'd prefer my AK over the AR15 in that situation(unless I'm using the .458 socom upper). Much more stopping power, but I still have the follow-up and rapid fire in case one of them comes after me. Which a 308 or 30-06 probably doesn't have, unless you're using an AR chambered in such a caliber.

 Ouze wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Shotguns are widely available and somewhat easier to feed in a crisis than .223 antiperson guns like the ar15.

I mean, I guess it depends on how you mean it? If you mean loading shells into a breech is about as difficult under stress and loading individual cartridges into a mag, then sure, I'd agree, the shells are bigger.

If you mean loading shells into a breech is easier under stress than slapping a mag in, then... I really, really disagree. The mag is much larger and easier to handle than fumbling for shells, and you get 30 rounds with one interaction vs 1 (half of one, if we're racking a pump).

I would never trust my life to a KSG, regardless of the whole shotgun VS AR debate. They seem prone to malfunctions/short shucking beyond the norm.

I think they mean finding ammo for it. Everyone/where will have 12 guage no matter if you need to get it from .mil, LEO or private pillaging, it can even be found in non gun-friendly places as Sporting shotguns aren't "guns". Not everyone has 5.56.

I'm not sure I'd agree but it may be a consideration. I'm of the opinion 5.56 is more likely to be found than combat 12 guage. A light .223 Vmax load may not be the best combat load but it'll be more useful than #7 shot.

Regarding comparative 12 guage vs 5.56 availabiltiy...
It is probable that more people have a little 12 guage, but I would wager that the total population stock pile is dwarfed by the sometimes 1000s of rounds people who do shoot 5.56 tend to collect, and then there's also the LEO/Govt supply as well.

Not saying anything is bad about 12 guage or that there's anything uniquely or specially problematic with supply, just that I suspect the total availabilty of 5.56 within CONUS is potentially huge in comprarison.

How willing people are to part with their supply during an ammo shortage, or at what terms is an open question.

About a year ago I was counseling anyone I cared about to stock up during the cheap ammo phase, as there's always an up-tick in price and demand close to an election in the US. With covid and civic unrest on top of a normally tense year, prices for 5.56 have gone from 30 cents per round to 80+ cents.

In a true (or perhaps deeper crisis) the demand and cost may go even higher.

I for one find ammo a safer commodity to stock than precious metals, simply becuase it has actual uses, and increasing value in scenarios where traditional store of value investments may be devalued.

Kayback wrote:
I think they mean finding ammo for it. Everyone/where will have 12 guage no matter if you need to get it from .mil, LEO or private pillaging, it can even be found in non gun-friendly places as Sporting shotguns aren't "guns". Not everyone has 5.56.

OK, I get that, not literally "feed".

When I built my AR10 I went with 308 over 6.5 Creedmore due to availability. I know Creedmore is a better round ballistically but you can get 308 anywhere that sells ammo, usually.

So yeah, one point to the shotgun crowd, you'll always be able to find 00 Buck.

 trexmeyer wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
That's a beautiful AR. I love the look of that grip. I've never had a chance to shoot one with that specific grip, how is it?

The forward grip is pretty decent, the main pistol grip is a bit small and needs another spacer

Nice.

Serious question. I like the AR-15 platform for its accuracy and range. It's fun to shoot. Does anyone actually buy those for home defense? I don't see how its superior to handgun or shotgun options for that specific purpose.

I wanted to get to the original subject, as the discussion as been focused on the AR vs Shotgun side. Anything with a stock is an improvement over a handgun. The handgun is the weapon that's great when you don't need a weapon, functional when needed. So yes, AR better than a handgun.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
That's a beautiful AR. I love the look of that grip. I've never had a chance to shoot one with that specific grip, how is it?

The forward grip is pretty decent, the main pistol grip is a bit small and needs another spacer

Nice.

Serious question. I like the AR-15 platform for its accuracy and range. It's fun to shoot. Does anyone actually buy those for home defense? I don't see how its superior to handgun or shotgun options for that specific purpose.

I wanted to get to the original subject, as the discussion as been focused on the AR vs Shotgun side. Anything with a stock is an improvement over a handgun. The handgun is the weapon that's great when you don't need a weapon, functional when needed. So yes, AR better than a handgun.

To this I'll add that I find inexperieced shooters I've worked with tend to naturally get better hits out of the box with an AR than a pistol. The ability to lock it in to your body better vs. learning to stabilize the various moving parts when using a pistol seems significant. There's a lot to be said for the more significant terminal effects from a rifle than a pistol in ensuring a threat is stopped.

The real downside to an AR in an enclosed space is the level of hearing damage you and anyone nearby is going to take. This is why some folks like the idea of suppressing a short .300 blackout for HD.

I doubt an AR is louder than a .357 with a 3 inch barrel or a 12 gauge with a short barrel.

The silencer on your home defense gun is for your and your families protection, because if that hits that fan, you won't be thinking "gee, I should run down to my car and get those earplugs I use to nap at work." or anything like that. Pick up a shotty, an ar15, an ak, or some fancy dan pistol with a silencer, and you are good. Longer barreled weapons are quieter not by their inherent nature, often, but because the ammunition is designed for use in them, and the powder mix burns completely before exiting the gun. Short barrels using rounds designed for optimal burn in a longer barrel create a huge fireball in front of the firearm, that is itself nothing more than a puff of powder that then explodes. This is louder than a gunshot needs to be.
Silencer, I reckon, would offset that some, although I also reckon you need buy a good one to survive the portion of the short barrel expelled explosion taking place inside the silencer every shot, too.

You know, it's funny. My go-to gun is a short AR in 300BLK, and I have a suppressor for 300BLK, and the AR in question has the correct thread screw for that suppressor, but... I keep the suppressor locked up upstairs on a different AR.

I should probably keep the suppressor with the gun even if I don't leave it screwed on.

At least for the 300BLK, all the powder has burned off by the 9" barrel length. I don't know offhand what it is for 5.56, other than "longer".

 CptJake wrote:
I doubt an AR is louder than a .357 with a 3 inch barrel or a 12 gauge with a short barrel.

Fair. I'm thinking a smaller caliber, but even then, we're usually talking 150s to 160+db.

 Ouze wrote:
You know, it's funny. My go-to gun is a short AR in 300BLK, and I have a suppressor for 300BLK, and the AR in question has the correct thread screw for that suppressor, but... I keep the suppressor locked up upstairs on a different AR.

I should probably keep the suppressor with the gun even if I don't leave it screwed on.

At least for the 300BLK, all the powder has burned off by the 9" barrel length. I don't know offhand what it is for 5.56, other than "longer".

Aaaand speaking of that, you just reminded me to move a suppressor to the correct gun. As for burn in the 5.56, you certainly keep adding energy through 18" http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html

Dukeofstuff wrote:
...
Silencer, I reckon, would offset that some, although I also reckon you need buy a good one to survive the portion of the short barrel expelled explosion taking place inside the silencer every shot, too.

So to your point, there's companies/designs available with tough cans that can do a shorter AR, hell, some are even good for machine guns. It also helps if you put a muzzle brake mount on, as it takes some of the abuse that otherwise would go onthe baffles. I have a SpecWar 7.62 that I use with my 11.5 inch 5.56 SBR. I expect it will keep working for a good long time.

Funny thing about the Hearing Protection Act if it ever passed, you'd probably see a lot fewer suppressors built like a tank, given that without the stamp/wait, the market equilibrium in terms of in lower cost vs. longer life would like shift down a good amount.

Speaking of what's going on inside, cool vid with clear baffle cover here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOXunRYJIw

Without getting into politics, I am really bummed the hearing protection act didn't pass. I think there was a window there that has now closed, or if not closed, is closing rapidly.

We will see, though.

 Ouze wrote:

So yeah, one point to the shotgun crowd, you'll always be able to find 00 Buck.

At least in normal situations of course. but around here 00 buck has been basically non-existent for the last 6 months, along with all of the handgun ammunition and 5.56/7.62. About the only thing on the shelves is birdshot and more niche calibers.

I got lucky and one of the local stores got a few cases of law enforcement grade 00 buck last week. Managed to get a case of 50 for only $70.

HPA should have passed. There is nothing wrong with suppressors.

I currently live in a country with rampant crime committed with firearms and what doesn't get used often is supressors. And they are readily available, I have 3 in my garage at the moment. I gave two others away.

IMHO a suppressor on an HD weapon is a win, but it vastly ramps up the price.

From a HD perspective, the AR-15 is significantly better than a shotgun. Keep in mind you won't necessarily be the one using the weapon to defend your home. My wife is much more capable of handling an AR-15 and keeping shots on target than she is with a shotgun.

Add in the pucker factor and the likelihood of missing a target goes up dramatically. Which is easier to get back on target, an AR-15 or a 12 gauge? I know from experience I can put 30 out of 30 into a man sized target at 50 yards rapid fire, think you can mimic that with slam fire from a shotgun?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hog hunting with 5.56 is fine, though I would prefer something bigger. I'd prefer my AK over the AR15 in that situation(unless I'm using the .458 socom upper). Much more stopping power, but I still have the follow-up and rapid fire in case one of them comes after me. Which a 308 or 30-06 probably doesn't have, unless you're using an AR chambered in such a caliber.

This is why I love my AR 10. Though there is a significant weight difference to an AR 15. AR 10 is just not a practical weapon - I am glad I have one but honestly dread shooting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
You know, it's funny. My go-to gun is a short AR in 300BLK, and I have a suppressor for 300BLK, and the AR in question has the correct thread screw for that suppressor, but... I keep the suppressor locked up upstairs on a different AR.

I should probably keep the suppressor with the gun even if I don't leave it screwed on.

At least for the 300BLK, all the powder has burned off by the 9" barrel length. I don't know offhand what it is for 5.56, other than "longer".

Isn't 300 blk a subsonic round? I thought that was the whole reason to use it - it is very quiet right? Never heard one fired personally.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hog hunting with 5.56 is fine, though I would prefer something bigger. I'd prefer my AK over the AR15 in that situation(unless I'm using the .458 socom upper). Much more stopping power, but I still have the follow-up and rapid fire in case one of them comes after me. Which a 308 or 30-06 probably doesn't have, unless you're using an AR chambered in such a caliber.

This is why I love my AR 10. Though there is a significant weight difference to an AR 15. AR 10 is just not a practical weapon - I am glad I have one but honestly dread shooting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
You know, it's funny. My go-to gun is a short AR in 300BLK, and I have a suppressor for 300BLK, and the AR in question has the correct thread screw for that suppressor, but... I keep the suppressor locked up upstairs on a different AR.

I should probably keep the suppressor with the gun even if I don't leave it screwed on.

At least for the 300BLK, all the powder has burned off by the 9" barrel length. I don't know offhand what it is for 5.56, other than "longer".

Isn't 300 blk a subsonic round? I thought that was the whole reason to use it - it is very quiet right? Never heard one fired personally.

300BLK is available as both sub and supersonic.
There is a phenomenon that has a name that goes along with the selective hearing that happens in an actual gun battle. Although the bang from short barreled rifles can have a concussive and actually stunning effect on folks that aren't expecting the boom users don't seem to be affected in the short term. Not saying that long term effects aren't an issue but with the vets in my circle jet engines caused more issues than machine guns. The combo of jet engines and machine guns make a bad combo.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Isn't 300 blk a subsonic round? I thought that was the whole reason to use it - it is very quiet right? Never heard one fired personally.

You can get many different loads depending on what you want to do, 147gr supers or 220gr subs.

 Ouze wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Isn't 300 blk a subsonic round? I thought that was the whole reason to use it - it is very quiet right? Never heard one fired personally.

You can get many different loads depending on what you want to do, 147gr supers or 220gr subs.

That's really the charm that brings interest from a lot of folks. You can get similar energy out of a suppressed 45, but with a 45 you can't just do a mag swap and start throwing supers.

There's just the whole admech level sacred handling of the ammo and magazines to avoid doing this

specwar 7.62 would, I presume, also work on calibers up to the .308 range? and down to the .22LR?

Dukeofstuff wrote:
specwar 7.62 would, I presume, also work on calibers up to the .308 range? and down to the .22LR?

Careful shooting .22LR through a center fire can, clean it before you shoot center fire as the .22 deposits quite a bit of unburnt powder in the can which a center fire can ignite.

Someone on the Tippmann forum blew up his suppressor doing that.

I saw a PSA video of some guys who shot a 300 blackout round in a 5.56 barrel to show what happens. The bullet actually came out the end, looked like someone stepping on a tube of toothpaste on the high speed. Surprisingly, only the barrel itself was ruined. Both the lower and the upper survived.

For practical purposes, 300 blackout is very similar to 7.62 in terms of use and they have similar ballistics when dealing with the same bullet weights. Given the potential safety concerns with 300 blackout and 5.56 confusion if you're using both at the same time I honestly would take a 7.62 upper instead as I would get much the same overall results as 300 blackout without the potential for a safety disaster. You can't mix up the mags and 7.62 will never ever feed into a 5.56 chamber even if you tried.