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 Slowroll wrote:
In table 2 (probably best if we don't discuss table 1), .32 overperformed, greatly skewing the numbers, and that is interesting. Is it really that much better than .38 and .380 and "JUST AS POWERFUL" as 9mm? Physics says no, but there has to be a reason behind that. In fantasy land, that might be a gang of elite shooters all using vintage Mauser C96 and PPKs. In reality I expect one or more murder suicides is skewing the numbers, but in fairness I couldn't find any evidence of that.

It is axiomatic that if you make a bigger hole, you do more damage to the target. Conversely, the larger the hole you want, the more energy it takes to make it. In head-to-head comparisons on always reliable Youtube, I've seen it shown that 9mm performs better against armor than .45 ACP. This should come as no surprise, and of course 5.7x28mm exists to penetrate ballistic armor.

With .32 ACP, you are making a smaller hole, and this allows significantly less power to achieve good penetration. There's also the fact that guns in the caliber are lighter, fit easily in the hand, have less noise and less recoil. Many of them even feature fixed barrels, further enhancing accuracy. The Walther PP (big brother to our PPK) is like a tack hammer.

When Teddy Roosevelt switched NYPD to .32 revolvers, accuracy was one of his concerns. Sykes and Fairbairn also used .32 ACP because it took less training to use effectively.

Americans have long bought into "carry the heaviest thing you can" rather than "carry what works best for you," though that tide seems to be turning. I am seeing more reviews and discussion about "mouse guns" and calibers like .32 H&R Magnum are finally getting some respect.

I'm a huge fan that caliber, btw. It is the platonic ideal of self-defense cartridges - for the exact same package as a standard J-frame, you get less recoil, one extra round vs .38 (six instead of five) and it hits remarkably hard with excellent penetration. On paper, it's equivalent to .38 Special or .380+P, but as Paul Harrell likes to say, those are just numbers on a page.

In practical use (shooting water jugs, etc.), I've been very impressed and Kyle Baker at Lucky Gunner's youtube channel has some nice demonstrations of its effectiveness.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Do the Brits have anything like American police procedurals where an undermanned and demoralized urban dept. wages a desperate, forlorn battle to keep the streets safe? "Hill Street Blues" comes to mind, but I'm sure there have been others.

It was a bit of a stretch to pretend the streets weren't largely safe anyway, beyond some small pockets of rough 'uns.

The Bill as mentioned ran forever, but if I recall they spend most of their time dealing with vandals and thieves and not battling a non existant underworld.

There were a few 70's shows like The Sweeny and Minder (who was a bodyguard rather than a cop, I think) who were a kind of UK equivalent of Starsky and Hutch, but it mostly just involved punching dodgy looking guys outside pubs.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:


but as Paul Harrell likes to say, those are just numbers on a page.

In practical use (shooting water jugs, etc.), I've been very impressed and Kyle Baker at Lucky Gunner's youtube channel has some nice demonstrations of its effectiveness.

Paul Harrell is my favorite guntuber. A bit of an odd duck, but always objective, and the vids are always about guns and subjects within the wheelhouse of most civilian shooters. I do like the Lucky Gunner stuff as well.

If you saw it, what did you think of Paul's video on .32 ACP? It being unable to penetrate even one orange through the simulated "meat target" was a surprise. The .380 mangled them with the same (excellent) ammo fired from a similar gun.

https://youtu.be/Aw0BPSnrENA?t=759

With .32 ACP, you are making a smaller hole, and this allows significantly less power to achieve good penetration. There's also the fact that guns in the caliber are lighter, fit easily in the hand, have less noise and less recoil. Many of them even feature fixed barrels, further enhancing accuracy. The Walther PP (big brother to our PPK) is like a tack hammer.

 Slowroll wrote:


If you saw it, what did you think of Paul's video on .32 ACP? It being unable to penetrate even one orange through the simulated "meat target" was a surprise. The .380 mangled them with the same (excellent) ammo fired from a similar gun.

I've seen the video and it's not bad. However, he should not have used hollow points, which are not something .32 ACP was designed for. Browning built it for penetration, not expansion. The same is true with .25 ACP. I know hollow point ammo exists, but I think it's foolish to use it in these calibers.

I actually bought a box of .32 hollow point and it doesn't feed correctly at all - too short, moves around in the magazine. Since Paul is all about a "fair test," I'd love to see him use some ball ammo.

I'd also note that he doesn't say that they failed to penetrate the oranges, he's pointing out that one very damaged orange was hit along the edge, which opened it up. They then went through the ribs and were stopped by the t-shirt on the back.

So that's reasonable penetration. Not a ton of damage on the way through, but that's why shot placement is so important.

I'd also note that (as is often the case), the only weapon available to him is a sub-sub compact, which has the weakest ballistics because of the short barrel and is often difficult to use because the grips are tiny. A moderately larger pistol (Colt 1903, Walther PP, Browning 1910) produces better results and superior accuracy while remaining comparable in size to current compact carry weapons.

Last weekend I was with some friends at the range and a .32 ACP Yugo M70 police surplus gun was able to hold a one-inch group at seven yards. That's some serious shot placement but when you have almost no noise or recoil, it's a lot easier.

 Slowroll wrote:
... and can "turn people to dust".

Wooden bullets. Vampires.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Wooden bullets. Vampires.

When the first edition of Vampire: The Masquerade came out, I came up with the idea of a break action, over/under .410 gauge shotgun with 6" barrels that could use "Dragonbreath" incendiary rounds.

Many years later, the Taurus Judge came out and I thought: "Close enough!"

However, now Bond Arms has the exact thing I envisioned those 25 years ago, and I've held one in my hand, weighing the validation of my vision being made real vs. the impracticality of the actual weapon. (I live in northern state where venomous snakes are very rarely encountered.)

To put it another way: I have not yet achieved the level of affluence required to buy a gun "just because."

Just curious: any thoughts on 9x18mm Makarov?

Asking for a friend.

Its spicy. Very good ammo. Main issue is finding it.

400m today in the glorious sunshine:

For those who hunt?

Do you tend to decide “well we’re hunting for Deer” and load specifically. Or (season allowing of course) in terms of hardware and ammo hedge your bets in case Something Tasty But Not Deer/Hog/Budgerigar shows up?

Generally a hunting trip is always targeting a specific game animal. At most you might be hunting deer and/or pig whichever you see and that isn't going to be a difference in terms of ammo.

Bird hunting with a shotgun might be a little different, you'd want different shot types for quail/dove vs turkey. And maybe a slug incase a pig/deer shows up and the seasons are overlapping. But then you can just carry a couple of different shells in your pocket.

Loading a rifle cartridge is not generally going to discriminate between a deer or a hog. They'll be basically the same in terms of need. I'd hunt a deer, elk, or pig with the same load. Depending on the state, if pig are considered vermin then you probably won't bother with any type of hand loads. Give em the cheap store bought FMJ.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For those who hunt?

Do you tend to decide “well we’re hunting for Deer” and load specifically. Or (season allowing of course) in terms of hardware and ammo hedge your bets in case Something Tasty But Not Deer/Hog/Budgerigar shows up?

In much of the US, there are specific seasons for particular types of animal, and these vary from state to state. In some cases, seasons may overlap or include multiple categories of critter. In Michigan, firearm deer season starts on November 15, and is a Very Important Day. By tradition, the state Legislature goes into recess and since time immemorial, the entire auto industry takes the day off. Down tools and kill Bambi.

Michigan has a "small game" season which includes both birds and bunnies. I recall a hunt many years ago where one of the bird dogs was doing an abjectly terrible job and our "hunt" was mostly a dog run. Happily, whilst taking a moment to relieve my bladder, I spied a rabbit engaged in a similar activity. There was a tense moment of recognition, where the bunny sought to complete his business whilst I sought to bring my shotgun to bear. I won the race.

In the event, birdshot was sufficient to do the trick and instead of woodcock, we dined on rabbit.

I should add that most of the time, one must have a specific license to take game, and these can be sex-specific (does vs bucks) depending on the species.

There are exceptions for nuisance critters, such as wild hogs or crows.

Do to my work hunting hasn't really been in the cards for a while. Here there is no rifle hunting for deer, only shotguns, pistols, and bows. If I'm hunting deer, I keep a couple shells of birdshot on me, if pheasant hunting an extra slug and buckshot. You never know when you'll get bored and run into a random feral dog, feral pig, pigeon, or squirrel.

I haven't hunted regularly since I was a teenager, and now that my weekends are free, I'm very excited about obtaining free-range, antibiotic-free, renewable and sustainable meat.

It would be nice to take a deer with something other than my car.

Most people can talk about what rifle, shotgun or load they used. I have a make, model and year.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
I haven't hunted regularly since I was a teenager, and now that my weekends are free, I'm very excited about obtaining free-range, antibiotic-free, renewable and sustainable meat.

It would be nice to take a deer with something other than my car.

Most people can talk about what rifle, shotgun or load they used. I have a make, model and year.

Yeah, I know the feeling. It's surprising how hard people work to take a deer with a rifle, when they just jump right in front of a multi-ton moving vehicle.

Doesn't help that hunting restrictions are often a little onerous.

I have nothing against limits on how many and what size of deer you can take, but restrictions on antler size and time of year are odd. Especially in areas where the deer are overpopulated, which is most areas. It especially annoys me in CA that you can't hunt Does. I mostly want to deer hunt for the meat. I wouldn't mind a buck, but they have learned that they are the targets of hunting not the Does, and they know when the season is too.

Frankly I think you should be able to hunt at least 1 deer at any time of year with any means and method(provided it is done in a safe manner) as a sustenance hunt. Doe or Buck as long as its an adult its fair game. Does need to be hunted more anyway since the population of most deer are exploding and that is the only way to control them.

And of course every state should be like Texas when it comes to hogs. No liscence or tags needed, pop em as much as you want. Eat them if you want or donate to charities. We could feed a lot of needy people if we went to war on the feral hogs and we could at least keep them in check.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Doesn't help that hunting restrictions are often a little onerous.

I have nothing against limits on how many and what size of deer you can take, but restrictions on antler size and time of year are odd. Especially in areas where the deer are overpopulated, which is most areas. It especially annoys me in CA that you can't hunt Does. I mostly want to deer hunt for the meat. I wouldn't mind a buck, but they have learned that they are the targets of hunting not the Does, and they know when the season is too.

That's absolutely nuts.

The limits on deer are generally based on long-time herd management practices. You take the bucks with a big rack because they are soon going to die of disease or be too weak to make it through the winter. You spare the spikes because they are the future old bucks.

Does are what controls the size of the herd. If you hunt them heavily, you will cripple population growth. When Michigan's herd gets too big, an extra amount of doe permits are generated and sometimes a second late season takes place in December.

There has been talk of changing Opening Day from a fixed date, but while deer may know it is coming, weather really determines how successful the hunt is. That being said, Michigan has loosened up the other seasons a bit, so crossbows are now legal for archery season.

Perpetually banning doe hunting is insane. I can't believe any state would do that.

The idea of hunting for food definitely appeals, but as a Brit feels like an odd idea.

Guess the difference is it’s been a long, long time since Us Plebs were really allowed to freely hunt. Deer being the reserve of the Nobility for reasons.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For those who hunt?

Do you tend to decide “well we’re hunting for Deer” and load specifically. Or (season allowing of course) in terms of hardware and ammo hedge your bets in case Something Tasty But Not Deer/Hog/Budgerigar shows up?

In much of the US, there are specific seasons for particular types of animal, and these vary from state to state. In some cases, seasons may overlap or include multiple categories of critter. In Michigan, firearm deer season starts on November 15, and is a Very Important Day. By tradition, the state Legislature goes into recess and since time immemorial, the entire auto industry takes the day off. Down tools and kill Bambi.
.

Similar here, though its the first monday after Thanksgiving*, which made it an unofficial school holiday before county legislators gave up and just made it a real one (simultaneously created a demand for too many substitute teachers and less student attendance). We now have two bow seasons as well, before and after. And a season for flintlocks, which overlaps gun and second bow season, for some reason.

*which also created the Thanksgiving tradition of deerspotting, where drunk locals roam the back roads with floodlights in the back of their pickups, trying to find where the deer are currently laying.

What I know for sure is illegal here is spotting deer from a truck. At least that's what the our deputy wants us to report.

Also our deer hunters work with the DNR to provide meat to the local food bank.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Doesn't help that hunting restrictions are often a little onerous.

I have nothing against limits on how many and what size of deer you can take, but restrictions on antler size and time of year are odd. Especially in areas where the deer are overpopulated, which is most areas. It especially annoys me in CA that you can't hunt Does. I mostly want to deer hunt for the meat. I wouldn't mind a buck, but they have learned that they are the targets of hunting not the Does, and they know when the season is too.

Perpetually banning doe hunting is insane. I can't believe any state would do that.

Yup. What is extra dumb in CA is that, if you are lucky enough to win the drawing, you can get Elk doe tags. Or rather "antlerless" tags. Elk aren't critically endangered or anything, but they're much more closely monitored.

And yeah, you don't want to kill all the young bucks before they get to maturity, but there is a good argument against only allowing larger bucks to be taken. Namely because it creates a selective pressure for smaller antlers. This is why for salt water fish a lot of species have both a minimum and a maximum. Not that there is enough hunting in CA to actually thin out the large bucks, but it would be an issue in other more hunter dense states.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The idea of hunting for food definitely appeals, but as a Brit feels like an odd idea.

Guess the difference is it’s been a long, long time since Us Plebs were really allowed to freely hunt. Deer being the reserve of the Nobility for reasons.

Rabbit is the quarry of choice for plebs, I believe

Fun “fact” on Deer in the U.K.?

Roadkill Deer are legal to take - provided you’re not the one that ran them over.

I say “fact” as whilst that’s my understanding, it may just be urban myth.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The idea of hunting for food definitely appeals, but as a Brit feels like an odd idea.

Guess the difference is it’s been a long, long time since Us Plebs were really allowed to freely hunt. Deer being the reserve of the Nobility for reasons.

More wilderness areas plus we don't have Norman lords who own everything.

There are also various government-owned areas that anyone can hunt on with a valid license. The revenue from license sales is considerable, and supports other conservation efforts. Hunting also prevents overpopulation which can damage crops, spread disease into livestock, and of course deaths and damage due to vehicle collisions. In my area, overpopulated deer caused extensive environmental damage. After they exhausted the primary food supply, the deer ate less nutritious plants, needed more of them and displaced other animals who began to strip everything bare.

Because it is a residential area (albeit with parks), forest rangers came in and held a series of cullings, which not only eased the pressure, but provided fresh meat for local food banks.

 Slinky wrote:
400m today in the glorious sunshine:

Now THAT is the beginning of a fun day!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Fun “fact” on Deer in the U.K.?

Roadkill Deer are legal to take - provided you’re not the one that ran them over.

I say “fact” as whilst that’s my understanding, it may just be urban myth.

In my state (Pennsylvania), its legal to take a deer that you hit, as long as you call the cops out and pay for a tag to be given to you on the spot.


I have not been hunting in about 20 years or so, but I'm debating on giving it a go. We have Red Tag hunting around here, where basically if you're a farmer, you can hunt your land year round to protect your crop. Just have to give Fish and Wildlife the numbers of what you cull periodically. Some farmers sublet their property, for a price.

As someone without the option, but to whom the idea that for a couple of skilful shots you can fill your larder with some of the tastiest meats known to mankind?

For my sake, do it. I cannot. You can. So if you do not, I’ll take it a personal insult!

Bloody love a bit of Venison, me. Well, any game really. It’s the tasty meat you know you’ve eaten.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As someone without the option, but to whom the idea that for a couple of skilful shots you can fill your larder with some of the tastiest meats known to mankind?

For my sake, do it. I cannot. You can. So if you do not, I’ll take it a personal insult!

Bloody love a bit of Venison, me. Well, any game really. It’s the tasty meat you know you’ve eaten.

That is my plan. I'm currently working on cleaning out the garage so I have room for a chest freezer.

If I'm successful, I will post photos of the feast.

Magnificent!

I really am quite jealous.

Exchanged some old shot and got some of this https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/410-critical-defense-2-1-2#!/