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Heck, replacement barrels for mosin? I could use one someday if postage is not to high!

In France there's a strange paradox. Most of the population actually likes guns, mostly for hunting granted, and we were one of the most armed countries a while ago still, 7th or so. We had an army with not too much means altogether but ambitions to keep in the race nonetheless so we needed weapons.

But somehow a "guns are bad" rethoric as gained momentum in the same time a "industry is not needed we can by on shelf for a discount" rethoric.

So we're a country that likes guns, but each time there was an terrorist attack we legal shooters were getting our boomsticks banned, we have no more weapon production, and if ever you are made to stand up to your life with one of your gun you will go to jail... Go figure.

Respect to your grandpa btw

Going by footage of the latest... street festivities... you've had over there, seems like there is a lot of "shall not comply" on that front in France.

Wish we could so casually get M249s and M60s over here.

Oh yes there totally is, but thing is, it's not the same population that owns the most.

Legally detained weapons are more or less stagnant, little up but in no significant numbers because people don't know the rules to get one and get turned down at gunshops, and because they know they'll be stuffed if they ever actually need to defend themselves with them so they don't necesseraly dare to actually get one.

But, in the meantime, suburbs full of dealers being out of the reach of the police, well, they've got what they want. Rumor has it that in cities like mine, Saint Dizier, they already came across RPGs and grenades.

So, when those people go on riot, well, they may kit out with whatever drug money and state allocated financial care may buy them.

At the other end of the spectre, we have some ultra right wings elements that also manage to get heavy equipment and often know how to use them. Funnily enough, places where they set up (like it happened in Lyon i believe) tend to be spared the holy crusade of the rioters... Again, go figure.

But you and you double barrelled 1890 hunting gun are treated like you're the terrorist. Brainrot is real in this country lol!

But I'm getting political and that's not within the forum's rules, please forgive me for spitting out frustration on here

 Grey Templar wrote:
Going by footage of the latest... street festivities... you've had over there, seems like there is a lot of "shall not comply" on that front in France.

Wish we could so casually get M249s and M60s over here.

Oh, what I wouldn't give to be able to legally have an M60...

You would need some sort of screen showing your bank balance going down as each belt went through it

Oh, it'd be expensive to shoot, but glorious when events put me in the position where firing it would be necessary. It was my service weapon for 6 years in the Army.

 Slinky wrote:
You would need some sort of screen showing your bank balance going down as each belt went through it

It would be like watching the ammo count on the set guns for the full cut of Aliens.

"Two hundred. Two-fifty. Three hundred. Three-fifty..."

"Is that rounds expended?"

"No, dollars."

Full-auto weapons are legal in the US, but they require extra hoops to jump through and the "entry level" weapons are equivalent to purchasing an car. The "collector" items range from a vacation cabin to a second home.

Honestly, having fired full-auto stuff in the military, it's fun, but only if someone else is paying for the ammo.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Slinky wrote:
You would need some sort of screen showing your bank balance going down as each belt went through it

Full-auto weapons are legal in the US, but they require extra hoops to jump through and the "entry level" weapons are equivalent to purchasing an car. The "collector" items range from a vacation cabin to a second home.

Honestly, having fired full-auto stuff in the military, it's fun, but only if someone else is paying for the ammo.

That's precisely that, you do it 2 3 times, for the giggles, but that's all. Even if automatic guns were legal in france I wouldn't use one because rounds are that expensive

Just so you know, famas don't really like full auto and tend to get blue after 3-4 magazines still working fine though

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Slinky wrote:
You would need some sort of screen showing your bank balance going down as each belt went through it

Full-auto weapons are legal in the US, but they require extra hoops to jump through and the "entry level" weapons are equivalent to purchasing an car. The "collector" items range from a vacation cabin to a second home.

Honestly, having fired full-auto stuff in the military, it's fun, but only if someone else is paying for the ammo.

That's precisely that, you do it 2 3 times, for the giggles, but that's all. Even if automatic guns were legal in france I wouldn't use one because rounds are that expensive

Just so you know, famas don't really like full auto and tend to get blue after 3-4 magazines still working fine though

I'd rather get my hands on a fully auto FN FAL than a FAMAS, but that's just me...

 Just Tony wrote:
I'd rather get my hands on a fully auto FN FAL than a FAMAS, but that's just me...

If you're going to fire full-auto, then a big part of the satisfaction comes from the effect on the target. Spending that kind of money to make holes in paper just doesn't cut it.

Indeed, while I use paper targets for practice, I also like destructible objects as well. For example, when our dishes were getting old and cracked, we returned them to the earth via kinetic action. Refilling juice or milk jugs with water is also an inexpensive way of getting a feel for some dakka.

So if I get behind something full-auto, I want to cut a car in half with it or something.

And 5.56 isn't really going to do that.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I'd rather get my hands on a fully auto FN FAL than a FAMAS, but that's just me...

If you're going to fire full-auto, then a big part of the satisfaction comes from the effect on the target. Spending that kind of money to make holes in paper just doesn't cut it.

Indeed, while I use paper targets for practice, I also like destructible objects as well. For example, when our dishes were getting old and cracked, we returned them to the earth via kinetic action. Refilling juice or milk jugs with water is also an inexpensive way of getting a feel for some dakka.

So if I get behind something full-auto, I want to cut a car in half with it or something.

And 5.56 isn't really going to do that.

FN FAL is 7.62

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I'd rather get my hands on a fully auto FN FAL than a FAMAS, but that's just me...

If you're going to fire full-auto, then a big part of the satisfaction comes from the effect on the target. Spending that kind of money to make holes in paper just doesn't cut it.

Indeed, while I use paper targets for practice, I also like destructible objects as well. For example, when our dishes were getting old and cracked, we returned them to the earth via kinetic action. Refilling juice or milk jugs with water is also an inexpensive way of getting a feel for some dakka.

So if I get behind something full-auto, I want to cut a car in half with it or something.

And 5.56 isn't really going to do that.

That's really a matter of taste but what I like is the sound and kick (well, recoil is actually a bit lesser, but i think you get my drift). I could litteraly spread ammo in the air on full auto and call it a day Not sure my wallet would survive that though.

When I want to have a blast (frenchman tries a pun) with any destructible target, from now on, I'll be able to get my auto 5 to work on it. Just tested it an hour ago just in case, chewed through low end decathlon ammo no problem. I took care to apply a thin veil of grease on the barrel spring though.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:


If you're going to fire full-auto, then a big part of the satisfaction comes from the effect on the target. Spending that kind of money to make holes in paper just doesn't cut it.

Indeed, while I use paper targets for practice, I also like destructible objects as well. For example, when our dishes were getting old and cracked, we returned them to the earth via kinetic action. Refilling juice or milk jugs with water is also an inexpensive way of getting a feel for some dakka.

On the subject of destructible targets. I blew out some eggs a while back and let the shells dry for a few days then filled those with wood ash. Fun little targets to pop. And they don't really hurt anything so I don't have to clean them up.
The eggs, just peck a hole in the top and bottom with a knife or what not and blow the eggs out into a bowl. add cream and scramble those in a pan add cheese or what ever and enjoy. at least three eggs for an omelet.


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Oh, and a small update on the pistol vs dogs post I made several months ago, maybe last year. I'm still shooting the GSG 1911. It's really fun and seems accurate. Just got in 4 -16 Round 1911 22LR High Capacity Magazine - conversion kits. from Taylor Tactical. I ordered them with their better spring they offer. They just arrived and were very easy to install. No problems. They only hold 15 rounds not the 16 advertised but that could be either because of the better spring or because they are brand new. I'm not upset at all. I'd only just seen a few bad reviews but they were older reviews by a few years. These mags worked really well no real problems just one small issue with one mag where it wanted to double feed and I dropped a round but no other problems and no cycling issues. I'm shooting 22 Thunderbolt and it's been reliable. Cycling issues was where they failed in the review I mention.
I'm looking at buying a GSG 922 for concealed carry as it seems really close to the 1911 platform in function but I have to get hands on one first to decide. The mags work in both pistols which is one reason I'm giving it thought.
More rounds makes all the difference! So far so good. I am planning to buy more mags and more conversion kits. One or two more anyway.

let us know when you get that them

 Just Tony wrote:
FN FAL is 7.62

I'm aware of that, I was referring to the FAMAS or other 5.56mm weapons.

As a weapon I have to carry on road marches and pack ammo for, 5.56 is the winner, but if I'm dusting stuff at a range, I absolutely need more dakka.


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 warhead01 wrote:
I'm looking at buying a GSG 922 for concealed carry as it seems really close to the 1911 platform in function but I have to get hands on one first to decide. The mags work in both pistols which is one reason I'm giving it thought.
More rounds makes all the difference! So far so good. I am planning to buy more mags and more conversion kits. One or two more anyway.

Somebody should make a full-sized high-cap in .32 ACP. It would be soft as a pussycat and yet pack much more horsepower than a .22LR. Also, centerfire to inherently more reliable. Years of shooting .22LR have convinced me it a plinking round, not a self-defense one. It costs more, but .25 ACP has the exact same performance and it's centerfire.

It is surprising that nobody has made a SMG in a small caliber like .25 or .32 caliber with absurd magazine capacity. Something like the American 180 but a little more punch.

Or to fix the unreliability of .22 you make a man-portable chain-gun with a backpack ammo supply.

True that 22 tends to jam or misfire regularly...as for power, I think garand thumb made a video about it somewhere in the past but I didn't take the time to watch it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It is surprising that nobody has made a SMG in a small caliber like .25 or .32 caliber with absurd magazine capacity. Something like the American 180 but a little more punch.

Or to fix the unreliability of .22 you make a man-portable chain-gun with a backpack ammo supply.

There are Gatling guns in .22LR, and of course since they operate from a crank, they aren't considered Class III.

There were SMGs in .32 ACP back in the day, but they lacked battlefield range. The trend was for higher velocity/hitting power.

The fact is .22LR is in something of a sour spot since rimfire is inherently less reliable and the rim itself makes it harder to cycle.

The big thing it has going for it is that it is exponentially cheaper than .25 ACP, and one of the weirdest things about ammo prices is how completely divorced they are from materials. A 240-grain .44 magnum cartridge costs less than 85 grain .32 H&R Magnum.

Totally crazy.

How much do ammunition cost on average in the US? For the most common calibers at least?

Here it's steadily increasing, even surplus ammunition is scratching 80 cents for some calibers like 5,56, 7,62x39 is around 40 cents...

I've seen 22 jump from 5 euros for 50 bullets to 6 or even 7, not even talking about minimags, just standards all around loads.

Hopefully I relaod my 7,62x54 myself at least! But even then relaoding is getting harder because not only do powder etc get expensive, but it's actually hard to find a store that sells them.

You see, a law was passed a few years ago, whereby storage of powder was more strictly regulated, so most little gunsmith can't actually store it anymore...

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
How much do ammunition cost on average in the US? For the most common calibers at least?

Right now it's in flux. The Covid spike sent everything to unimaginable levels, even assuming you could get it.

We're now seeing something of a correction and calibers like 9mm are close if not at pre-pandemic levels. Same with 5.56mm. There's a theory that this partly a result of profit-taking/over-production (9mm was at $1 a round at its peak, so why not shift all production to something that is 5x its normal price?) but because the US is no longer engaged in active conflicts, military caliber ammunition is now just sitting there, and contractors are dumping the surplus on the open market.

Something I learned about ammo manufacture is that the big companies will do a major run of something and then switch that line to something else. For example, the market in .303 British isn't huge, but rather than keep that line open but at 1/10 capacity, you use it at full strength to make what is in essence a two-year supply based on market data. All the wholesalers will buy it up, and put some in warehouses because it will eventually sell. Now you can do 7x57mm Mauser, etc.

With the pandemic, everything sold out. The major factories focused on high-volume calibers because they were making money hand over fist. Those inventories are now huge, hence the discounts. Indeed, some manufacturers are offering rebates to move inventory.

And so the niche calibers are coming back. They are higher than they were before, but part of that is inflation. Yet even for those calibers there is downward pressure because people bought all they could, and now have pretty big stockpiles. So if you panic-bought 500 rounds of .303 British, it coming back on the market means nothing to you.

https://ammoseek.com/ is pretty much the go-site for spot checks on prices.

Around here 5.56 is usually around 30-40 cents a round. 7.62x39 is usually the same, but since the Russian import bans it has spiked a bit though you can still get it at normal prices if you look around.

50 round boxes of 5.7mm for my P90 is $46 plus tax

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
How much do ammunition cost on average in the US? For the most common calibers at least?

Right now it's in flux. The Covid spike sent everything to unimaginable levels, even assuming you could get it.

We're now seeing something of a correction and calibers like 9mm are close if not at pre-pandemic levels. Same with 5.56mm. There's a theory that this partly a result of profit-taking/over-production (9mm was at $1 a round at its peak, so why not shift all production to something that is 5x its normal price?) but because the US is no longer engaged in active conflicts, military caliber ammunition is now just sitting there, and contractors are dumping the surplus on the open market.

Something I learned about ammo manufacture is that the big companies will do a major run of something and then switch that line to something else. For example, the market in .303 British isn't huge, but rather than keep that line open but at 1/10 capacity, you use it at full strength to make what is in essence a two-year supply based on market data. All the wholesalers will buy it up, and put some in warehouses because it will eventually sell. Now you can do 7x57mm Mauser, etc.

With the pandemic, everything sold out. The major factories focused on high-volume calibers because they were making money hand over fist. Those inventories are now huge, hence the discounts. Indeed, some manufacturers are offering rebates to move inventory.

And so the niche calibers are coming back. They are higher than they were before, but part of that is inflation. Yet even for those calibers there is downward pressure because people bought all they could, and now have pretty big stockpiles. So if you panic-bought 500 rounds of .303 British, it coming back on the market means nothing to you.

https://ammoseek.com/ is pretty much the go-site for spot checks on prices.

I didn't know that about ammo factories, thanks for telling me!

5,7mm is 1 euro per round here. Apart from a few rare five sevens pistols, E have no P90 out there because, like posh submachine guns for instance, it is considered too short and this must use an ugly extended barrel. Plus it can't be full auto which is way too sad for such weapons

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I wish I could find a civilian FAMAS to buy but those where almost all handed over to you in the US, you lucky Yankees .

Well I bet a lot of people are crossing fingers hoping that the stock that is left after the replacement is mostly done is shipped to Ukraine. Plenty of firearms leak from there, and post war they are going to want to standardise so all these other types will be disposed of. Assuming some oligarch doesn't mess it all up there could be some excellent auctions/bulk lots being shipped to other countries.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Around here 5.56 is usually around 30-40 cents a round. 7.62x39 is usually the same, but since the Russian import bans it has spiked a bit though you can still get it at normal prices if you look around.

50 round boxes of 5.7mm for my P90 is $46 plus tax

Would love to know what is the actual cost of ammo production, then retooling for a different calibre/propellant, and overall overhead of a small factory. I am sure such numbers must be increasingly easy to find with all of the expansion to meet demand in Ukraine and elsewhere.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Would love to know what is the actual cost of ammo production, then retooling for a different calibre/propellant, and overall overhead of a small factory. I am sure such numbers must be increasingly easy to find with all of the expansion to meet demand in Ukraine and elsewhere.

I think with most calibers, production costs are only one element in determining price. A bigger piece is the demand and amount of competing producers.

For example, making 8x22 Nambu ammo is not materially more complex or expensive than making 7.63mm Mauser. If anything, it should be cheaper based on the amount of materials used.

However, only a few producers bother to make it, and so they can charge through the nose. Want to put a magazine through Granpa's bringback Type 14? That'll cost $20, assuming you can find it.

Again, the pandemic swept out all inventory, so ammo that had sat on the shelves at reasonable prices only because demand was low - that's all gone. This means the market is starting from scratch, so ammo that was .50 per round in 2019 can be $1.50 simply because it's just hard to find.

As for Ukraine surplus, I don't think any of that will get back here. If we had pre-1968 import rules, yes, but now, it's too difficult. The best one will see is "parts kits" mated with American trigger assemblies.

 Grey Templar wrote:
50 round boxes of 5.7mm for my P90 is $46 plus tax

This saddens me, I really want the new M&P in 5.7, but can't justify the price of ammo.

We can hope the NFA goes away in the next few years and we can get some of that sweet un-modified surplus

So, when laws change and say, certain magazine capacities or rates of fire aren’t allow, what happens to owned guns which could no longer be legally bought or sold?

In France, you ought to know it ("nobody should be ignorant of the law") and give them over to the gendarmerie or police.

However, mostly in villages, many people are not informed. It leads to a great deal of weapons and accessories, mostly for hunting being now detained illegaly and unregistered. Effectively, many now Category C rifles were available at supermarkets in hunting shelves, or were formerly S category (free detention and buy) but were overranked (surclassé) in C and thus came under mandatory declaration.

If you are found in possession of such weapons, you face prison and/or strong financial punishments and registration in the FINIADA (Fichier National des Interdits d'Achat et deDétention d'Armes), forbidding you any further buying or detention for 5 years.

A year or so ago, inspiration was taken from operation "rendez les armes" (throw your weapons) that is regularly conducted in french islands, and the same operation was made in metropolitan police offices. The idea is that you can exceptionally come by and hand over any weapon, piece of weapon, or ammunition illegaly detained for destruction or selling at auction at the benefice of the government. It was a relative success, as it is supposed that while hunters and shooters mostly didn't attend, the average people who don't own shooting or hunting licenses or are poorly informed about gun laws and were at loss what to do with these often inherited weapons showed en masse.


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Finally, rights are a bit different between people and ranges. This mostly deals with overranked former auto rifles converted to semi auto. After the Bataclan attacks, these rifles became forbidden to sell, but the current owner could keep it. The law changed again around late 2022 and it became illegal to have one. However, shooting ranges were in the end allowed to keep them nonetheless, which led some collectors or gun enthusiasts embarrassed with such weapons to cede them to their local shooting range. It can be changed at any time though, so ranges are not too keen on buying them and rather get them free from former owners.


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Ho, and by the way, broadly summarised, semi auto guns are category B, and category A is "war equipment and weapons", mostly full auto guns and military equipments such as some gas masks, explosives, etc...


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Hope you find this horrid wall of text informative

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, when laws change and say, certain magazine capacities or rates of fire aren’t allow, what happens to owned guns which could no longer be legally bought or sold?

Eventually they will wear out. You'll run out of parts to do repairs. What parts that wear out and which is controlled all make different problems. Where I live barrels are controlled items, so if you wear a barrel out you're SOL unless you can source a new one, which requires a whole government approval process. If you can't get around that, you have scrap.

Some guns will wear out and aren't user replaceable. Some, like the AR, are super modular. You can't easily replace the barrel or lower on an AK, but an AR? You can easily switch and swap parts. You can cannibalize other guns to keep one running

In the US they are usually grandfathered.

The remaining civilian transferable automatic weapons have been grandfathered in since 1986. The one and only transferable M249 SAW is currently on auction and the top bid is $310,000.

During the "Assault Weapons Ban" newly manufactured magazines were limited to 10 rounds and again all existing mags were grandfathered in. The effect was that new types of guns only had 10 round magazines available, and older style guns would come with 10 round mags when you bought them. You could then buy pre ban mags for them at inflated prices. The level of inflation depended on supply. The supply of combat rifle magazines was essentially unlimited and these would only be double or triple price. Pistol mags were between outrageous to exorbitant depending on the gun.

That said, like a lot of these questions the answers vary heavily depending on where you are at, and the newer laws in places like NY and CA may not have those same provisions. You should check your country, state, and local laws yourself (don't just ask internet strangers) before making any firearms related purchases.

--------------

Regarding ammo prices in the US, online it seems the prices are similar to France, and availability is the best its been in years.

Locally the prices haven't caught up. For example M193 is still .80 cpr at all three of my usual gun stores and half that online. I guess they will have to try to sell what they can at those prices then be forced to take a loss.

As for the really good stuff, the prices have come down a lot on the pistol ammo but for rifles not so much. Any 77 grain 5.56, .308 or US made (brass) 7.62x39 are $1 per round or more.

As they say, buy it cheap and stack it deep. I don't think the prices will come down much more for most calibers.

-----------

Regarding the FAMAS I have no experience with it, but as I understand they are replacing it with the HK 416, which is very highly regarded here in the US. I'd think most armies (including the US) would be very happy with that as their standard issue rifle.