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Nice. Though I have to say I feel that that is a wee bit close to be shooting steel

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nice. Though I have to say I feel that that is a wee bit close to be shooting steel

That was 25 yards. Started back at 50.

We get a lot closer with the pistol caliber weapons but typically no closer than 15 with 5.56, and that is for some specific drills.

Have not had any issues in several years of doing this.

EEEEP!! 25 yards on steel with rifles?

100 is the bare minimum to shoot steel safely with rifles. 50 with pistol calibers.

You do you but that is horrifically unsafe imo.

 Grey Templar wrote:
EEEEP!! 25 yards on steel with rifles?

100 is the bare minimum to shoot steel safely with rifles. 50 with pistol calibers.

You do you but that is horrifically unsafe imo.

I've had my share of disagreements with GT, but here we speak with one voice. You're too close.

50 yards for pistols is just silly, many of the targets have a 10 or 15 yard min for pistols.

All targets are hung in such a way that splatter is very unlikely to go towards the direction if the shooter. We get thick AR500/550 steel, and replace if they get pitted.

We've fired 10s of thousands of rounds without incident over the last few years.

 CptJake wrote:
50 yards for pistols is just silly, many of the targets have a 10 or 15 yard min for pistols.

All targets are hung in such a way that splatter is very unlikely to go towards the direction if the shooter. We get thick AR500/550 steel, and replace if they get pitted.

We've fired 10s of thousands of rounds without incident over the last few years.

I mean if you angle the steel to the point that it is more of a backstop, okay.

But without knowing that, 25 yards with an AR is a bit close.

I suppose pistols are fine a bit closer, 50 ft at the absolute closest, but rifles absolutely not within 100 yards/meters. You are risking shrapnel with anything other than steeply angled plates.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I suppose pistols are fine a bit closer, 50 ft at the absolute closest, but rifles absolutely not within 100 yards/meters. You are risking shrapnel with anything other than steeply angled plates.

You can go closer with pistols so long as they are soft lead (no jackets) and lighter calibers. I'm told the cowboy action guys do some of this for poker game scenarios and the like.

A couple of years back we were fine just plinking away with mouse guns, but then someone let off a 9mm FMJ and we had to close the range and offer some corrective instruction.

On a different note, I've noticed an across-the-board retreat for firearms prices. It truly is a buyer's market. I'm undertaking some home improvements and have been out of it for a while, but I'm pleased to see so many guns dropping in price. Ammo is way down as well, with .32 H&R Magnum having gone from about $1 per round to $0.74.

What do you think is behind the price? Overproduction? Drop in demand?

The_Real_Chris wrote:
What do you think is behind the price? Overproduction? Drop in demand?

It's hard to say. Firearms are actually a pretty segmented market. During the Covid panic, basic weapons were soaring in price but vintage or obscure ones actually dropped. I think there's some deflation going on, less demand, and Covid guns are being resold (just today I talked to a friend about helping him sell one of his Covid purchases that hasn't worked out for him).

I periodically do a sweep of Gunbroker, watch auctions and then see how they go. What I'm seeing is about a $100 drop since January, but it's not uniform. Spanish Ruby pistols are really high. I mean, one popular Youtube can cause a price spike. But overall, the prices I jotted down are all higher than what I'm currently seeing.

The ammo price drop is because people who bought 10,000 rounds in spam cans don't really need more and won't for a while. Manufacturers see this glut, and shift the lines to other calibers, which increases the supply there, and since the 9mm is basically dead in the water, they are cranking out a lot of otherwise low volume calibers. I used to shoot .44 Special in the 1990s, and I don't think it has ever been this cheap.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
What do you think is behind the price? Overproduction? Drop in demand?

A huge reason is one we can't directly talk about on Dakka. But it has a lot to do with who occupies a certain residence in a certain city. If one side occupies it, it causes panic buying because of threats of bans and when the other does the panic goes away. The panic is currently gone away.

I've just picked up a new range toy: a chronograph. I've wanted one for a while because I'm curious what velocities I am getting out of my vintage .32s and such.

I also intend to use it to see just how far out of spec some of that surplus ammo is. I have keyholing in various rifles, but it is inconsistent. I'm thinking some of that surplus is out of the performance envelope, which is making rounds tumble almost from the muzzle.

Plus, I can pretend to be the late, great Paul Harrell, turning to my buddies and reading off the numbers.

How much could be attributed to changes in support for Ukraine? Are the affected calibres something that could have been starting to get ramped up for supply abroad and then policy changes kicked in?

Not really. Most of the small arms ammo in Ukraine is being made domestically. Its certainly not coming from the US.

 Flinty wrote:
How much could be attributed to changes in support for Ukraine? Are the affected calibres something that could have been starting to get ramped up for supply abroad and then policy changes kicked in?

None of it. The ammo in question is decades old.

The result of my testing confirmed that the modern commercial ammo (which runs just fine, no keyholing) is around 400 fps less than the surplus stuff, which keyholes badly. Basically, the surplus is too 'hot' for that particular rifle. That is the big thing with surplus. Sometimes it gets weaker, sometimes it get much, much more powerful. A gain of 400 fps on a 2,000 fps ammo is significant.

I will be trading it away at the next gun show.

In other news, the civilian Tokarev ammo I have is actually a bit more robust than the surplus stuff. Both ran reasonably well. That Tokarev has had trigger issues but they seem to be working out. Maybe the refurb parts need to wear on each other. It's Romanian, so it's been on the bench for a while.

Smokeless powders generally always get more hot because as the formula's decay they become slightly more volatile versions of themselves, meaning they burn faster when they are ignited leading to faster thermal expansion and higher pressures. The times when a powder gets weaker is generally because of the round having defects which might allow moisture into the mixture from outside the shell.


At what ranges is that Tokerev key-holing?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Smokeless powders generally always get more hot because as the formula's decay they become slightly more volatile versions of themselves, meaning they burn faster when they are ignited leading to faster thermal expansion and higher pressures. The times when a powder gets weaker is generally because of the round having defects which might allow moisture into the mixture from outside the shell.


At what ranges is that Tokerev key-holing?

I had no idea. We obsessively dispose of ammo (far sooner than we need to), and have gone to extreme lengths in the past when disposing of stuff overseas. I wonder if a rifle like a FN FAL with its multiple gas settings can handle it better. Is it noticeable when firing on a range or you need an armourer with your chronograph to spot it?

In theory an adjustable gas system would be able to compensate.

Of course most modern ammo formulas will take far longer to decay than the older ones. So stuff from WW2 tends to have reputations for being hot. Modern ammo will probably take 100+ years before it starts degrading like the old stuff.

You usually will notice a bit more recoil when firing stuff like this. Its not usually dangerous unless there is a specific ammo with a specific firearm. I know people say you don't want to use surplus Italian 8mm mauser in any semi-auto because it is extremely hot now as an example.

And of course if you've got some surplus .50 BMG you will want to be very careful with that just because its so much more powerful than normal calibers. Consider pulling it and reloading yourself, and don't trust anyone elses reloads. 10% more chamber pressure in a .308 or 8mm, ehhh not a huge massive deal most of the time. 10% extra chamber pressure on a .50 BMG is hella dangerous.

I think I’ve probably asked this before, but as we’ve new peeps commenting on the thread?

Are there any notorious “gimmick guns”, like that Zip .22 which, despite being little more than a gimmick, you have or want for your collection, just for the novelty?

I’m not gonna define gimmick gun beyond that one example, as I don’t know enough.

I saw a Zip22 in a store once for only $100. I almost considered buying it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think I’ve probably asked this before, but as we’ve new peeps commenting on the thread?

Are there any notorious “gimmick guns”, like that Zip .22 which, despite being little more than a gimmick, you have or want for your collection, just for the novelty?

I’m not gonna define gimmick gun beyond that one example, as I don’t know enough.

The Taurus Curve, I've heard they're notoriously unreliable. But the concept of a curved gripped pistol to better match the contours a human body (and thus conceal better) seems interesting.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Smokeless powders generally always get more hot because as the formula's decay they become slightly more volatile versions of themselves, meaning they burn faster when they are ignited leading to faster thermal expansion and higher pressures. The times when a powder gets weaker is generally because of the round having defects which might allow moisture into the mixture from outside the shell.


At what ranges is that Tokerev key-holing?

Sorry, it was a Mauser Kar98k that was keyholing at 10 yards.

But with commercial ammo, it was fine.

Oh geez. That shouldn't be happening at all.

I wouldn't expect any ammo could make it keyhole that close. I would expect it to be a problem with the rifle if its doing that but if commercial ammo is fine then idk.

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think I’ve probably asked this before, but as we’ve new peeps commenting on the thread?

Are there any notorious “gimmick guns”, like that Zip .22 which, despite being little more than a gimmick, you have or want for your collection, just for the novelty?

I’m not gonna define gimmick gun beyond that one example, as I don’t know enough.

The Taurus Curve, I've heard they're notoriously unreliable. But the concept of a curved gripped pistol to better match the contours a human body (and thus conceal better) seems interesting.

Oooh, that’s very sci-fi, isn’t it!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Oh geez. That shouldn't be happening at all.

I wouldn't expect any ammo could make it keyhole that close. I would expect it to be a problem with the rifle if its doing that but if commercial ammo is fine then idk.

It's not unknown for overpressure to cause a bullet to be unstable. The surplus stuff was 20% over spec, and on a rifle with a less than perfect bore, that was enough.

As to gimmick guns, that's a pretty broad category. Maybe "quirky" also fits. There are the revolvers that cycle (Matiba, Webley-Fosbery), and the new thing of having the barrel aligned with the bottom of the cylinder, lowering the bore axis.

My thing is really cheap guns that are off the beaten path. Obscure service weapons in .32 ACP is catnip to me.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think I’ve probably asked this before, but as we’ve new peeps commenting on the thread?

Are there any notorious “gimmick guns”, like that Zip .22 which, despite being little more than a gimmick, you have or want for your collection, just for the novelty?

I’m not gonna define gimmick gun beyond that one example, as I don’t know enough.

I actually own one of those horrible pieces of gak Zip-22's. In order to get mine to shoot "reliably", and I use that term relative to it's initial state, I had to do A LOT of work. I diassembled it, reemed-out the chamber a bit, polished EVERY steel component to a mirror finish, lubed with graphite powder as the manual dictates NO liquid oil, use only factory Ruger 10-round rotary mags, and only CCI stinger ammo. I can now average 9 rounds between jams.

Honestly, I think a minor tune of this gun could make it reliable. 1. Enlarge the ejection port a bit. 2. extend the action just a wee bit (even 1/4 inch would help) to slow the reciprocal rate. 3. Replace the silly polymer bolt and replace it with either aluminum or steel (unsure which would be better) to give the bolt more mass and SLOW the action down. 4. add a metal feed ramp.

90% of this gun's jams are from too high a reciprocal rate, and the rest is from too small an ejection port.

Riiight so I finally found time to ponder about what when wrong with the single shot manuarm in 22...

Seems it was the spring metal sheet that serves to press everything together against the receiver. It was badly curved and no longer held the extracting plank in place. I'll have to go to the range to see if it improved anything, but dry firing and dry cycling it seems to work, which is already a jump forward.

Kinda butchered the spring, as I needed to heat it in order to bend it back into a suitable form. I'm literally just counting on the fact that it is a single shot 22 and that it will never give enough energy to make anything bad happen.

If that works, I'll be happy and able to go onwards to another project.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd like to get to making the short buttstock for my gf that'll help here handle the Auto 5 a bit more easily, since it's a long and unwieldy gun. When I'm done with all that, I'll need to sell it, need some cash after a car crash to make my repairs.

Next question on the Zip, mostly because I like the name and the design reminds me of a Biker Scout’s blaster from out of off of Star Wars.

If Cuda1179’s field fixes had been applied to the actual design, would things have worked out any differently?

I can see some appeal from its deadliness, and a Wiki article suggests it was pretty accurate. But is it just….y’know, a bit too weedy looking?

I’m possibly thinking a bit Orky here, but I think as a near total stranger to firearms, I’d prefer something a bit more conventional, knowing such designs have worked plenty fine for decades.

Not for intimidation reasons. This thread has taught me “only draw if you’re going to shoot, intimidation is a silly thing”

If the Zip was reliable? Heck yeah, I'd have been in love.

I didn't care that it looked like a firearm birth defect. It IS accurate. It was ridiculously cheap. It was light. And it used Ruger rotary mags/banana mags.

My whole plan was to use it as a backpacking gun. No wood and little metal meant humidity wasn't an issue, and if I totally lost it or broke it I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

Now, the weird stock and option to mount it as a foregrip for another firearm were silly in the extreme. For a camp gun or survival pack gun, sure would work great.

The main issue with the Zip is that it was overcomplicating the "answer" to the question it was allegedly a response to. IE: Cheap mostly plastic gun. You could do that so easily without making it an unreliable pos. .22 rimfire is already so fickle, why make the action so weird? It really is hard to not think they were trying to make the worst gun imaginable.

Just copy a Ruger 10/22 action, put it a plastic toy pistol housing, make the barrel a steel sleeve inside a plastic tube, and call it good.