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I got to handle a Tavor in the army, though only Givati was issued them at the time.
It seemed OK. I didn't love that you can't adjust the length of pull though. I prefer a much shorter length of pull when I'm wearing lots of clothing and armor versus just my vest and a shirt.
Hordini wrote: With proper training, as long as you have a modern firearm and a holster that completely covers the trigger, condition one is the way to go as far as I'm concerned. Israeli carry just gives you more opportunity to make a mistake in a situation where you can't afford to make mistakes.
I used to do it this way, but ran into a situation with a pitbull that chrged Rusty and I as we stepped out the front door. AFter that I did cocked/locked for two weeks until I became comfortable.
Now I'm fine with a good stiff holster in DAO only (different pistol now).
Not a huge revolver fan, but a 4" barrel makes me happy, and I'm swimming in .38 and .357 currently.
boom
Most accurate centerfires I've ever shot have ALL been revolvers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breotan wrote: I carry "condition one", but that's because I use a revolver and there really isn't much of a choice unless you leave a bullet out of the cylinder.
Cowboy style. I actually did that with a model 29 for a good while.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/11 20:32:59
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I got to play with a Tavor in Kuwait while I waited to go up into Iraq. It was an Indian officer's. I liked it a lot. Better than the AUG. Reliable and accurate.
My guilty pleasure is an FS2000 though.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
The Missouri Right to Bear Arms, Amendment 5 was on the August 5, 2014 primary election ballot in Missouri as a legislatively-referred constitutional amendment, where it was approved.
The measure established the unalienable right of citizens to keep and bear arms, ammunition and accessories associated with the normal functioning of such arms, for the purpose of defense of one’s person, family, home and property. Additionally, it removed the exception to the former constitutional right to bear arms that explicitly stated it could not be used to justify the wearing of concealed weapons.[1] The amendment allowed the state to limit the possession of arms by convicted felons and those adjudged as mentally ill. Previously, citizens had the right to bear arms in defense of home, person and property, but the right was not considered “unalienable.”
The terms "unalienable" and "strict scrutiny" in the proposed constitutional changes were both important changes from the point of view of the courts and provided the highest level of legal protection for gun rights in court cases. Inalienable rights are not transferable and impossible to take away.[2] Strict scrutiny is a form of judicial review regarding the constitutionality of a law. In order for a law to pass strict scrutiny, it must be passed to further a compelling governmental interest and be narrowly tailored to achieve that goal. This level of scrutiny must be applied to any laws regarding gun rights or control in the state going forward following Amendment 5's approved.[3]
Proponents of Amendment 5 supported requiring these higher standards of review on gun control laws. They also cited the need for the explicit protection of ammunition and firearm accessories. Opponents, however, were concerned that the amendment would make it harder to enact any regulation of guns and violent criminals. Some additionally argued that Amendment 5 was an attempt to circumvent federal law via nullification.
Here's the actual ballot:
The official ballot title and fair ballot language read as follows:[7]
“ Official Ballot Title:
Shall the Missouri Constitution be amended to include a declaration that the right to keep and bear arms is a unalienable right and that the state government is obligated to uphold that right?
State and local governmental entities should have no direct costs or savings from this proposal. However, the proposal’s passage will likely lead to increased litigation and criminal justice related costs. The total potential costs are unknown, but could be significant.
Fair Ballot Language:
A "yes" vote will amend the Missouri Constitution to expand the right to keep and bear arms to include ammunition and related accessories for such arms. This amendment also removes the language that states the right to keep and bear arms does not justify the wearing of concealed weapons. This amendment does not prevent the legislature from limiting the rights of certain felons and certain individuals adjudicated as having a mental disorder.
A "no"; [sic] vote will not amend the Missouri Constitution regarding arms, ammunition, and accessories for such arms.
If passed, this measure will have no impact on taxes.
Which passed by 61% to 39%!!!!
So... now here's the point of this post:
Missouri has stronger gun rights than Texas now... so... Frazzled? SUCK IT!!!!!!! *
* just to be sure, I'm yanking Frazz's chain here.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: I got to handle a Tavor in the army, though only Givati was issued them at the time.
It seemed OK. I didn't love that you can't adjust the length of pull though. I prefer a much shorter length of pull when I'm wearing lots of clothing and armor versus just my vest and a shirt.
that is my big grip about bull pups too, cant adjust the LOP on the stock, so they never seem to fit right going from full BA to just a shirt or vest.
I also find them hard to use while prone or various lying on the ground positions, where as m16's you can just use the mag for a mono pod, or twist the gun to the side and hug the dirt.
on bullpups when they are twisted to the side because the mag is back there it tends to "checken wing" my arm and screw up those awkward shots even more.
there is also the fact that if that chamber explodes, its riiiight by your face
love them for bench shooting though, I just wish they could make a bulpup rifle somewhat like the p90, so that the mag is nice and flat on top and in front still.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
whembly wrote: I hope I'm not breaking any tenets to this thread by this... but, I have a very good reason:
The Missouri Right to Bear Arms, Amendment 5 was on the August 5, 2014 primary election ballot in Missouri as a legislatively-referred constitutional amendment, where it was approved.
The measure established the unalienable right of citizens to keep and bear arms, ammunition and accessories associated with the normal functioning of such arms, for the purpose of defense of one’s person, family, home and property. Additionally, it removed the exception to the former constitutional right to bear arms that explicitly stated it could not be used to justify the wearing of concealed weapons.[1] The amendment allowed the state to limit the possession of arms by convicted felons and those adjudged as mentally ill. Previously, citizens had the right to bear arms in defense of home, person and property, but the right was not considered “unalienable.”
The terms "unalienable" and "strict scrutiny" in the proposed constitutional changes were both important changes from the point of view of the courts and provided the highest level of legal protection for gun rights in court cases. Inalienable rights are not transferable and impossible to take away.[2] Strict scrutiny is a form of judicial review regarding the constitutionality of a law. In order for a law to pass strict scrutiny, it must be passed to further a compelling governmental interest and be narrowly tailored to achieve that goal. This level of scrutiny must be applied to any laws regarding gun rights or control in the state going forward following Amendment 5's approved.[3]
Proponents of Amendment 5 supported requiring these higher standards of review on gun control laws. They also cited the need for the explicit protection of ammunition and firearm accessories. Opponents, however, were concerned that the amendment would make it harder to enact any regulation of guns and violent criminals. Some additionally argued that Amendment 5 was an attempt to circumvent federal law via nullification.
Here's the actual ballot:
The official ballot title and fair ballot language read as follows:[7]
“ Official Ballot Title:
Shall the Missouri Constitution be amended to include a declaration that the right to keep and bear arms is a unalienable right and that the state government is obligated to uphold that right?
State and local governmental entities should have no direct costs or savings from this proposal. However, the proposal’s passage will likely lead to increased litigation and criminal justice related costs. The total potential costs are unknown, but could be significant.
Fair Ballot Language:
A "yes" vote will amend the Missouri Constitution to expand the right to keep and bear arms to include ammunition and related accessories for such arms. This amendment also removes the language that states the right to keep and bear arms does not justify the wearing of concealed weapons. This amendment does not prevent the legislature from limiting the rights of certain felons and certain individuals adjudicated as having a mental disorder.
A "no"; [sic] vote will not amend the Missouri Constitution regarding arms, ammunition, and accessories for such arms.
If passed, this measure will have no impact on taxes.
Which passed by 61% to 39%!!!!
So... now here's the point of this post:
Missouri has stronger gun rights than Texas now... so... Frazzled? SUCK IT!!!!!!! *
* just to be sure, I'm yanking Frazz's chain here.
dear god... that is some complicated wording... took me a few reads to figure out which way to vote for pro gun rights.
GO ILLINOIS! show those fanny bandits in texas how its done!
(dear texans, please dont ban me from queso I is just joking)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/11 22:36:04
Ensis Ferrae wrote: I hate to be the "noob" here... but wtf is "condition 1" and "condition 3" (after 10 years in the army, I know Amber, Red, and Red Direct)
If I recall, Condition 1 means you just pull the trigger and it goes bang.
The conditions are different for every weapon, because belt feds and revolvers and double actions are all different one way or another but in short.
Condition 1 - Magazine inserted, round in chamber, hammer back (if applicable) and safety on. aka Locked and Cocker
Condition 2 - Ammunition/magazine inserted, round in chamber, hammer down. This is the normal carry condition for revolvers and double action semi automatic.
Condition 3 - Magazine/ammunition inserted, chamber empty, safety on (aka Israeli carry, if you have a modern non-DA semi auto carry there's a good chance this is your normal weapons condition for carry)
Condition 4 - No magazine/ammunition inserted, chamber empty, weapon on safe.
Condition 4 is common slang for clearing your weapon.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Ensis Ferrae wrote: I hate to be the "noob" here... but wtf is "condition 1" and "condition 3" (after 10 years in the army, I know Amber, Red, and Red Direct)
If I recall, Condition 1 means you just pull the trigger and it goes bang.
its condo (condition zero) thats the bang switch only safety, ie no safeties.
cond1 is cocked and locked, safety on (which is what they loved about the 1911 because when out of your hand, it has an enabled safetey, and as soon as you grip it, you disengage that safety, so could go from cond1 to condo really fast.
2 is locked with no cock and only applies to things like 1911's with external hammers or maybe a double action pistol
3 is israli carry IIRC (IE loaded mag, no round in chamber, no cock or lock)
4 is totally unloaded
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/11 23:54:49
Respectfully, If you're going to post stuff like this, when people start posting gun-control stories and so on in this thread, no one will have any right to complain it's off-topic, since we've now expanded the discussion.
I think it might be best for everyone here if we try and keep this thread divorced from gun politics. God knows there's no shortage of places here to discuss them. It's worked pretty well as a thread that's strictly about guns you own, what you do with them, and guns you might want to own and why. Just my 2 cents.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/12 11:08:40
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Respectfully, If you're going to post stuff like this, when people start posting gun-control stories and so on in this thread, no one will have any right to complain it's off-topic, since we've now expanded the discussion.
I think it might be best for everyone here if we try and keep this thread divorced from gun politics. God knows there's no shortage of places here to discuss them. It's worked pretty well as a thread that's strictly about guns you own, what you do with them, and guns you might want to own and why. Just my 2 cents.
Fair enough... just wanted to yank Fraz's chain.
I do have a valid question is this thread:
What's the best way to have a "readied" shotgun for defense in the house?
My SKB is just sitting in my gun case locked, cleaned and unloaded.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/12 14:06:37
I keep my shotgun empty with the firing pin forward, I keep the bolt closed but it's a simple yank to rack it back and throw a shell in for an emergency.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Respectfully, If you're going to post stuff like this, when people start posting gun-control stories and so on in this thread, no one will have any right to complain it's off-topic, since we've now expanded the discussion.
I think it might be best for everyone here if we try and keep this thread divorced from gun politics. God knows there's no shortage of places here to discuss them. It's worked pretty well as a thread that's strictly about guns you own, what you do with them, and guns you might want to own and why. Just my 2 cents.
Fair enough... just wanted to yank Fraz's chain.
I do have a valid question is this thread:
What's the best way to have a "readied" shotgun for defense in the house?
My SKB is just sitting in my gun case locked, cleaned and unloaded.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Respectfully, If you're going to post stuff like this, when people start posting gun-control stories and so on in this thread, no one will have any right to complain it's off-topic, since we've now expanded the discussion.
I think it might be best for everyone here if we try and keep this thread divorced from gun politics. God knows there's no shortage of places here to discuss them. It's worked pretty well as a thread that's strictly about guns you own, what you do with them, and guns you might want to own and why. Just my 2 cents.
Fair enough... just wanted to yank Fraz's chain.
I do have a valid question is this thread:
What's the best way to have a "readied" shotgun for defense in the house?
My SKB is just sitting in my gun case locked, cleaned and unloaded.
Ouze wrote: Where you think they can't reach. You should probably get a safe, IMO.
Yeah... been researching for gun safe for some time now.
The shells are in a locked firebox on the top shelf. But, as anyone knows, kids can get into anything, locked or not... so, gun safe is on the agenda soon.
Ok I would suggest lock the shells up. Your kids CAN get to it. 8 year olds are flying monkeys that occasionally wear both shoes on the right feet. Lets assume there's only a .1% chance I'm right. Do you want to risk .1%?
What you can do is get you a cheap $30 touchpad safe. Put some shells in there.
In the Alamo (the master bathroom) we have a safe with - among other things - a box of buckshot for the shotgun under the bed. Now we also have a Beretta in that one, and and a Model 29 in one right by the bed, so the shotgun is not the first reaction one.
I like that new shot lock though.
Now at the Houston house I just have a fully loaded and Wingmaster with one in the pipe. Only me and Rusty go there though so the threat identification and worry about kids issue is moot.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Id recommend for a home defense gun to have it in a biometric or combination safe,
that way, kids cannot steal the keys, only you or people you tell the code to can get to it,
and its faster to open as you dont have to look for keys.
I cant store them up here like this, but if it was legal, I would have mag fed stuff in the safe with the mag inserted but no chambered round (so it wont cook off in a fire) for shotties, same thing, rounds in the mag, none in the chamber,
rack and you are good to go.
as it is, I have to have everything locked, unloaded, and the mags/ammo in a separate safe. super safe, but totally worthless for defense unless they take 5+ minutes to get in.
Thats cool. Its not a full blown safe but looks good for one or so. I'd be down with that.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I only have a storage locker with a key lock right now, but I don't have kids and a I move a fair bit. Once I get somewhere permanent I'll invest in a full sized safe, though the way things are going I'm going to need a second locker soon >.>;
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Strangely I have a "tin" of about 200 hundred 303 rounds in it, but no Enfield. Grrrrr!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I used to carry Condition 3 when out and about, but then I realized, sometimes you may not get the time to rack the slide should you need to use the weapon. I started carrying Condition One with my 1911, as it's design readily lends itself to this stance. What with the slide safety and a thumb break holster, I didnt worry as much.
Jump three years later, I transitioned to carrying Glock. I started off with Condition 3, until a refresher course reminded me why I didnt want to carry Condition 3. My holster covers the trigger very well, so my chance of a ND is very slim.
Here's some info straight from Jeff Cooper (the "father" of modern handgun technique):
Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.
Some of these configurations are safer than others (for instance, a single action pistol without a firing pin safety such as a transfer bar system should never be carried in Condition 2), while others are quicker to fire the gun (Condition 1). In the interest of consistent training, most agencies that issue the 1911 specify the condition in which it is to be carried as a matter of local doctrine.
This firearm condition system can also be used to refer to other firearm actions, particularly when illustrating the differences between carry modes considered to be safe for various actions. For example, DA/SA is designed to be carried in Condition 2, which is not safe for 1911s without firing pin safeties.
Most Important of Jeff Coopers ideas is his color code called
Combat Mindset—The Cooper Color Code
The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.[5] In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness:
The color code, as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state of mind. As taught by Cooper, it relates to the degree of peril you are willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given situation. Cooper did not claim to have invented anything in particular with the color code, but he was apparently the first to use it as an indication of mental state.[6]
White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."
Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."
Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.
Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person".
The USMC uses condition Black, although it was not originally part of Cooper's Color Code. Condition Black: Catastrophic breakdown of mental and physical performance. Usually over 175 heartbeats per minute, increased heart rate becomes counter productive. May have stopped thinking correctly. This can happen when going from Condition White or Yellow immediately to Condition Red.
In short, the Color Code helps you "think" in a fight. As the level of danger increases, your willingness to take certain actions increases. If you ever do go to Condition Red, the decision to use lethal force has already been made (your "mental trigger" has been tripped).
The following are some of Cooper's additional comments on the subject.
Considering the principles of personal defense, we have long since come up with the Color Code. This has met with surprising success in debriefings throughout the world. The Color Code, as we preach it, runs white, yellow, orange, and red, and is a means of setting one’s mind into the proper condition when exercising lethal violence, and is not as easy as I had thought at first. There is a problem in that some students insist upon confusing the appropriate color with the amount of danger evident in the situation. As I have long taught, you are not in any color state because of the specific amount of danger you may be in, but rather in a mental state which enables you to take a difficult psychological step. Now, however, the government has gone into this and is handing out color codes nationwide based upon the apparent nature of a peril. It has always been difficult to teach the Gunsite Color Code, and now it is more so. We cannot say that the government’s ideas about colors are wrong, but that they are different from what we have long taught here. The problem is this: your combat mind-set is not dictated by the amount of danger to which you are exposed at the time. Your combat mind-set is properly dictated by the state of mind you think appropriate to the situation. You may be in deadly danger at all times, regardless of what the Defense Department tells you. The color code which influences you does depend upon the willingness you have to jump a psychological barrier against taking irrevocable action. That decision is less hard to make since the jihadis have already made it.
He further simplified things in Vol. 13 #7 of his Commentaries.
"In White you are unprepared and unready to take lethal action. If you are attacked in White you will probably die unless your adversary is totally inept.In Yellow you bring yourself to the understanding that your life may be in danger and that you may have to do something about it.In Orange you have determined upon a specific adversary and are prepared to take action which may result in his death, but you are not in a lethal mode.In Red you are in a lethal mode and will shoot if circumstances warrant."[7]
And if you're drinkin' well, you know that you're my friend and I say "I think I'll have myself a beer" 
