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 praetor24 wrote:
I have no problem with the whole card thing. "Confrontation" used to be my wargame of choice for the years that it was alive and kicking, so cards definitely are not a taboo for me.

What I really did not like was the part of the rules that was saying that the game ends when there are no cards left in the deck. I mean, this can be a serious game breaker, especially since we know that there are people that will be more than happy to abuse this rule and transform a miniature game to a CCG one. So, this does particular rule does not get my vote.

How can a player abuse it for their own gain though? There are no cards that interact with the enemy deck in any way (only cards to interact with in-play cards). That is one of the big reasons why it isn't anything like a CCG (though again, the more correct term for it would be LCG). In a L/CCG the two decks interact with one another and that is what forms the gameplay. In Warzone, the cards can only interact with in-play cards or the game table (and units on it), itself.

So there is no real way for your opponent to deck you unless the game went on for 40-50 turns of you trickling cards in to your hand.

The decking mechanic is more to limit people rushing through their hand in order to get exactly what they need. Certainly not the only way to do it, mind you, but it could certainly work to discourage burning through ones deck too quickly.

I just can't see how one could abuse the rule for their own gain, though. The card-rules just lack that level of interaction with the decks to pull of things like (to use an MtG term) milling an opponent to death.

Either way, this is a mechanic I am willing to test out in play to see if it actually becomes and issue. But most games wont last long enough to see you through the 55-50 cards (if you mulligan your hand) you would need to delve through in order to actually lose the game like that. Even drawing out five cards a turn (regardless of if you need 'em or not) you will still need 11 or so turns to deck yourself, and drawing at that rate will make it impossible to actually use any of your cards anyways. So no one will do this in general (especially not for 11 turns in a row). I say we give it a fair shake first before deciding we don't need it, because I think it may be a good deterrent for people thinning their deck out by drawing more than they need every turn.

 Octopussy wrote:
The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

That is correct , Sir. The Free mini was a Gift from Prodos as compensation for high P&P.
A Gift ... compensation, not a Stretch Goal

They lost me at the deck mechanic. What is this, Doomtrooper two point oh? I don't want CCG's in my wargame, thank you very much.

I have nothing against reference cards, but shoehorning a 60-card deck, complete with tapping, discarding, and even MtG-style mana spending? Why? What's the reasoning? Are cards included at random with levels of rarity to stimulate the second-hand market? What an ill-conceived idea... If I wanted to build a deck, I'd stick with CCG's.

Oh yeah, it dawned on me. It's so that the old guard can't play the game without purchasing the new kits or printing out the cards. Now it makes sense.

 Octopussy wrote:
The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

Im sorry but read update 9 on kickstarter page that is not how its phrased at all. Its all wrapped up tightly with stretch goal news.

 -DE- wrote:
They lost me at the deck mechanic. What is this, Doomtrooper two point oh? I don't want CCG's in my wargame, thank you very much.

I have nothing against reference cards, but shoehorning a 60-card deck, complete with tapping, discarding, and even MtG-style mana spending? Why? What's the reasoning? Are cards included at random with levels of rarity to stimulate the second-hand market? What an ill-conceived idea... If I wanted to build a deck, I'd stick with CCG's.

Oh yeah, it dawned on me. It's so that the old guard can't play the game without purchasing the new kits or printing out the cards. Now it makes sense.

To each their own on the liking/not liking card mechanics but this doesn't seem like a cash grab at all like you make it sound since it appears they're giving the cards free for print out.

 -DE- wrote:
They lost me at the deck mechanic. What is this, Doomtrooper two point oh? I don't want CCG's in my wargame, thank you very much.

I have nothing against reference cards, but shoehorning a 60-card deck, complete with tapping, discarding, and even MtG-style mana spending? Why? What's the reasoning? Are cards included at random with levels of rarity to stimulate the second-hand market? What an ill-conceived idea... If I wanted to build a deck, I'd stick with CCG's.

Oh yeah, it dawned on me. It's so that the old guard can't play the game without purchasing the new kits or printing out the cards. Now it makes sense.

As far as we can tell you can either print the cards cheaply (gaining Prodos no money unless... I dunno, they're copy-shop moguls) or it sounds like they will be available (in their entirety) as separate purchases outside of the starters (and a the very least they are separately available during the KS as well). But not every card game is collectible (remember folks Living Card Games exist).

And it isn't like card-mechanics are new, untested ground in a wargame. Confrontation, anything produced by Spartan Games, some versions of Warhammer and 40k.

But c'est la vie. I quite like the way they set it up and it adds an extra tactical layer with a side of fog of war. I'm not 100% sold on the resource mechanic myself (and to be fair it is quite similar in design to MtG on that front) but the rest of it seems pretty usual for the kind of stuff you see in card-mechanics for miniature gaming. Though if the game otherwise interests you, one would think that the time to bug out wouldn't be right at the beginning of the beta. Prodos have shown they are nothing if not receptive to change, and while the card mechanics probably wont leave, the final form they take isn't exactly set in stone yet either.

And who knows, it is so easy to decouple the card mechanics from the game that it may end up being supported in the book as well. But if no one is around to voice that concern then how can it change during the beta.

And again, I say this as a guy who likes the card mechanics quite a bit (only iffy about the resources). But I can see why some wouldn't like them and fully support an optional inclusion of cardless rules for those who would just play without 'em. Official support of an easy house rule is always a good thing in my book, and it makes sure the game appeals to a wider base of customers.

Just for clarification:

Cards are not collectable
Each deck will consist the same strategy/tactical cards,
Cards give you situational bonus, up to max 20% (most expensive cards)
Cards let you affect terrain, weather conditions ect.
You can DRAW a card by spending Resources, that is why we said, the game is over once you ran out the cards, but simple math on it... 60 cards in deck, even if you spend max Resources just to draw a cards you wont ran out of it! Maybe in 9 or 10 turns....

Only "unique" cards are cards which comes with Troop/monster ect Squads! - Like Mutations for Legion or Software upgrade for Cybertronic giving small boosts (up to 20% to test roll)
Same about heroes cards.

the Beta Rules are out there, please play test them if possible. Once you are ready to give us feedback based on game experience please post it on our Facebook (or Forum on our web page - coming soon).

Thanks.

phil751 wrote:

 Octopussy wrote:
The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

Im sorry but read update 9 on kickstarter page that is not how its phrased at all. Its all wrapped up tightly with stretch goal news.

Possible that there could appear a little clearer in the beginning of the text. But I think you're reading what you want to read. I think it's pretty clear what they mean. The stretch goals is clearly visible on the frontpage.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:
Software upgrade for Cybertronic

Wow, that's actually a perfect use for the mechanic as well. I'm glad to see this will be integrated on many levels. Can I expect a "The Moment Has Come!" card for Bauhaus?

Only if Mishima gets a "Banzai!" one.
Funny fact about that, the Spanish version got mistranslated so intead of adding 1 inch to movement after calling Banzai I played 1st ed adding 1cm till I got hold of the English book online years later, ugh!

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
Only if Mishima gets a "Banzai!" one.
Funny fact about that, the Spanish version got mistranslated so intead of adding 1 inch to movement after calling Banzai I played 1st ed adding 1cm till I got hold of the English book online years later, ugh!

M.

Mishima will have Honour Cards (same principle as per general tactical cards)
for Bauhaus, we call them War Doctrine Cards (same principle as per general tactical cards)

Great!
And please take my comments for what they are, the comments of a WZ fan that wants a great game back even if he is still stuck in 1st ed

M.

 Octopussy wrote:

phil751 wrote:

 Octopussy wrote:
The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

Im sorry but read update 9 on kickstarter page that is not how its phrased at all. Its all wrapped up tightly with stretch goal news.

Possible that there could appear a little clearer in the beginning of the text. But I think you're reading what you want to read. I think it's pretty clear what they mean. The stretch goals is clearly visible on the frontpage.

I could say the same to you. It was announced in the stretch goal update the free mini was from the stretch goal. It is even in the same paragraph and sentence about stretch goal i think. So its not such a great leap to say it looks very much like a tacked on stretch reward. You even admit it could be clearer. Even if im totally wrong still does not sit that well perhaps a discount on shipping would have served better than the free rest of the world miniature, maybe though this is not possible in the kickstarter mechanics.

OK, I have read them and I am not really excited. Do not get me wrong I want this baby to succeed (I have already pledged on Dark Legion level…).
A lot of the rules seem to be a bit "old fashioned" and overly complex. Right now I would get the minis and play with another ruleset.
But this is the good thing here – BETA rules, we can give feedback!

OK, all the rest - just some proposals and questions on a strict "use or discard" base. And all by just reading not playing it, so not really qualified!

Layout – please remove the page backdrop, only wastes ink, makes the reading more difficult and is not adding anything since it is low res…

Bases measurement – To enforce a certain base on players is IMO a bad move. Just make all measurements from the centre of the base and include a CC-range. You can also declare the facing area. Done – and everyone can base the minis in any way they want.

What is the mini facing adding to the game? The situations were a facing for small models like infantry comes into play are very rare, so maybe drop the rule.

Cards mechanics – Well IMO too complex. Basically a game within a game. You are IMO opening a box of Pandora here. There are a lot of open ends too cover with future books/ FAQs…
I also fear that the gaming table is sooner or later cluttered with cards that are distracting from the minis!

Some questions:
How are resource cards looking? You have examples of Strategy, Gear and Tactical Cards, but no Res. Card. The only Res. Card I found are in the Card file, is this the only one? Do they all look alike?
Is flipping like tapping in MtG?
What are the symbols on the cards for?
Is Chess + World = Strategy
Chess = Tactical
Spanner = Gear? – Can’t be since the only Resource card has the same symbol!
What are the numbers on the cards for? Are this the number of res. points I have to pay to play the card?

How are Morale tests rounded? Up/ Down?

Do I get it right, that a player can activate all of his units in the battle Section? Or is the activation alternating between players?

phil751 wrote:

 Octopussy wrote:

phil751 wrote:

 Octopussy wrote:
The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

Im sorry but read update 9 on kickstarter page that is not how its phrased at all. Its all wrapped up tightly with stretch goal news.

Possible that there could appear a little clearer in the beginning of the text. But I think you're reading what you want to read. I think it's pretty clear what they mean. The stretch goals is clearly visible on the frontpage.

I could say the same to you. It was announced in the stretch goal update the free mini was from the stretch goal. It is even in the same paragraph and sentence about stretch goal i think. So its not such a great leap to say it looks very much like a tacked on stretch reward. You even admit it could be clearer. Even if im totally wrong still does not sit that well perhaps a discount on shipping would have served better than the free rest of the world miniature, maybe though this is not possible in the kickstarter mechanics.

KS wont let us to change anything one is up, therefore we gave that one Free mini to international P&P. Mark was trying to explain that on KS page.
Sorry for the "Update" not being clear enough .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AAN wrote:
OK, I have read them and I am not really excited. Do not get me wrong I want this baby to succeed (I have already pledged on Dark Legion level…).

Some questions:
1. How are resource cards looking? You have examples of Strategy, Gear and Tactical Cards, but no Res. Card. The only Res. Card I found are in the Card file, is this the only one? Do they all look alike?
2. Is flipping like tapping in MtG?
3. What are the symbols on the cards for?
4. Is Chess + World = Strategy
5. Chess = Tactical
6. Spanner = Gear? – Can’t be since the only Resource card has the same symbol!
7. What are the numbers on the cards for? Are this the number of res. points I have to pay to play the card?
8. How are Morale tests rounded? Up/ Down?
9. Do I get it right, that a player can activate all of his units in the battle Section? Or is the activation alternating between players?

Hi there
1. Page 6 Beta Rules: "Res. cards count as Gear Cards, but are only issued in the control phase."
2. Page 1 of Beta Cards, "flip it over to gain 1 Res"
3. Page 6. beta Rules - Example cards - The type is above.
4. Page 6. Yes
5. Page 6. Yes.
6. Page 6 Yes
7. Page 6... box with description is missing,, but yes this is cost. will be added in 1.1, See Pt1.
8.Rounded Up.
9. No, is alternative activation - "I go - you go".

Thanks for feedback.

So regarding the 'free' models:

When we met the £50k goal we released the KS priced £7 heros (RRP £7.99). As a geasture of good will to our international pledgers we offered one of these as a gift above the threshold stated.
When we met 150% of target we gave away a special 'Mishima Doomtrooper mini' to everyone of Razide level or higher. This mini will not be available outside KS, but can be bought by anyone who is already recieving a postal delivery from us (in any number) for £4 each

Neither of these offers, the free cards (future giveaways) or any 'add-on' purchase increases P&P charges.

As Jarek has stated above we can not change the information on the pledges. KS wont allow that!

Mark

Prodos wrote:
So regarding the 'free' models:

When we met the £50k goal we released the KS priced £7 heros (RRP £7.99). As a geasture of good will to our international pledgers we offered one of these as a gift above the threshold stated.
When we met 150% of target we gave away a special 'Mishima Doomtrooper mini' to everyone of Razide level or higher. This mini will not be available outside KS, but can be bought by anyone who is already recieving a postal delivery from us (in any number) for £4 each

Neither of these offers, the free cards (future giveaways) or any 'add-on' purchase increases P&P charges.

As Jarek has stated above we can not change the information on the pledges. KS wont allow that!

Mark

Sounds like a stretch goal bonus to me. Still im done with flogging a dead horse. Im not going to continue this subject any further unless im directly referenced on it again.

 AAN wrote:

Layout – please remove the page backdrop, only wastes ink, makes the reading more difficult and is not adding anything since it is low res…

Bases measurement – To enforce a certain base on players is IMO a bad move. Just make all measurements from the centre of the base and include a CC-range. You can also declare the facing area. Done – and everyone can base the minis in any way they want.

What is the mini facing adding to the game? The situations were a facing for small models like infantry comes into play are very rare, so maybe drop the rule.

Cards mechanics – Well IMO too complex. Basically a game within a game. You are IMO opening a box of Pandora here. There are a lot of open ends too cover with future books/ FAQs…
I also fear that the gaming table is sooner or later cluttered with cards that are distracting from the minis!

Good feedback, and I agree with the Beta rules background issue.

Regarding Facing and Base size, these mechanics have been used to Warmachine/Hordes for a decade now, and have shown to 'tighten' the rule set. If you're unfamiliar with the mechanics, I would recommend giving them a shot. It does make a huge difference.

I'll reserve judgement on cards. I've never noted their issue with WM/H or Malifaux, but this system is quite different.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:
I have no problem with the whole card thing. "Confrontation" used to be my wargame of choice for the years that it was alive and kicking, so cards definitely are not a taboo for me.

What I really did not like was the part of the rules that was saying that the game ends when there are no cards left in the deck. I mean, this can be a serious game breaker, especially since we know that there are people that will be more than happy to abuse this rule and transform a miniature game to a CCG one. So, this does particular rule does not get my vote.

How can a player abuse it for their own gain though? There are no cards that interact with the enemy deck in any way (only cards to interact with in-play cards). That is one of the big reasons why it isn't anything like a CCG (though again, the more correct term for it would be LCG). In a L/CCG the two decks interact with one another and that is what forms the gameplay. In Warzone, the cards can only interact with in-play cards or the game table (and units on it), itself.

So there is no real way for your opponent to deck you unless the game went on for 40-50 turns of you trickling cards in to your hand.

The decking mechanic is more to limit people rushing through their hand in order to get exactly what they need. Certainly not the only way to do it, mind you, but it could certainly work to discourage burning through ones deck too quickly.

I just can't see how one could abuse the rule for their own gain, though. The card-rules just lack that level of interaction with the decks to pull of things like (to use an MtG term) milling an opponent to death.

Either way, this is a mechanic I am willing to test out in play to see if it actually becomes and issue. But most games wont last long enough to see you through the 55-50 cards (if you mulligan your hand) you would need to delve through in order to actually lose the game like that. Even drawing out five cards a turn (regardless of if you need 'em or not) you will still need 11 or so turns to deck yourself, and drawing at that rate will make it impossible to actually use any of your cards anyways. So no one will do this in general (especially not for 11 turns in a row). I say we give it a fair shake first before deciding we don't need it, because I think it may be a good deterrent for people thinning their deck out by drawing more than they need every turn.

Cheers for your answer. It was my mistake since I only skimmed the rules and I did not notice that there is no way to influence your opponents deck. My bad to post so quickly based more on my fears rather than what there is.

Not quite like the two action stuff, that was what made the first edition so tactical, haven't checked the card aspect yet.

Wow, after I've read (and now understand) the card mechanic, it's quite excellent. Am i right on these points?:

- So there's no unique cards; they are basically part of your army list building.

- Which for small skirmish games where many army compositions can be the same, this allows for greater tactical flexibility.

- Losing when out of cards is to prevent card spamming (lemme quick go through my deck to find the cards I want, etc)

 judgedoug wrote:
Wow, after I've read (and now understand) the card mechanic, it's quite excellent. Am i right on these points?:

- So there's no unique cards; they are basically part of your army list building.

- Which for small skirmish games where many army compositions can be the same, this allows for greater tactical flexibility.

- Losing when out of cards is to prevent card spamming (lemme quick go through my deck to find the cards I want, etc)

That is 100% correct , Sir

My gaming group and I read through the rules and played 2 test games, I must say the card element added a lot of fun to the games. We game both table top and mtg so merging the two was a natural transition to us.

In my opinion using a D20 and being allowed two rolls (if you want to take the second) is a nice change from having to roll mass amounts of D6's.

Higher resolution rules would be a lot better as well, as some of it was hard to read when printed out. I would also like to suggest you remove the page backdrop as well as it adds extra toner when printer.

Just my personal criticisms of the rules are as follows.

Some of the wording could be redone to be more clear and concise.

Stat line Card Diagram looks quite sloppy and can be a bit hard to read (High res image and better pointers could help) *beta* I know

Would recommend a different font as well for all text.

That is all for now. This game at least for my club and I is shaping up to become our primary tabletop game. Our games lasted roughly 30 - 40 min each, the rules were very easy for us to pick up and the game was fun from the start not to mention the more beer we drank the more fun it got :^)

There should be an option when printing a PDF to not print the background image.

 judgedoug wrote:
Wow, after I've read (and now understand) the card mechanic, it's quite excellent. Am i right on these points?:

- So there's no unique cards; they are basically part of your army list building.

- Which for small skirmish games where many army compositions can be the same, this allows for greater tactical flexibility.

- Losing when out of cards is to prevent card spamming (lemme quick go through my deck to find the cards I want, etc)

primalexile wrote:
My gaming group and I read through the rules and played 2 test games, I must say the card element added a lot of fun to the games. We game both table top and mtg so merging the two was a natural transition to us.

In my opinion using a D20 and being allowed two rolls (if you want to take the second) is a nice change from having to roll mass amounts of D6's.

Higher resolution rules would be a lot better as well, as some of it was hard to read when printed out. I would also like to suggest you remove the page backdrop as well as it adds extra toner when printer.

Just my personal criticisms of the rules are as follows.

Some of the wording could be redone to be more clear and concise.

Stat line Card Diagram looks quite sloppy and can be a bit hard to read (High res image and better pointers could help) *beta* I know

Would recommend a different font as well for all text.

That is all for now. This game at least for my club and I is shaping up to become our primary tabletop game. Our games lasted roughly 30 - 40 min each, the rules were very easy for us to pick up and the game was fun from the start not to mention the more beer we drank the more fun it got :^)

This sounds just great. I did not have the chance to playtest the rules yet and I might not be able to for quite some time, so it's nice that you guys took the time to share your first impressions. The problem now is reining my excitement.

 praetor24 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Wow, after I've read (and now understand) the card mechanic, it's quite excellent. Am i right on these points?:

- So there's no unique cards; they are basically part of your army list building.

- Which for small skirmish games where many army compositions can be the same, this allows for greater tactical flexibility.

- Losing when out of cards is to prevent card spamming (lemme quick go through my deck to find the cards I want, etc)

primalexile wrote:
My gaming group and I read through the rules and played 2 test games, I must say the card element added a lot of fun to the games. We game both table top and mtg so merging the two was a natural transition to us.

In my opinion using a D20 and being allowed two rolls (if you want to take the second) is a nice change from having to roll mass amounts of D6's.

Higher resolution rules would be a lot better as well, as some of it was hard to read when printed out. I would also like to suggest you remove the page backdrop as well as it adds extra toner when printer.

Just my personal criticisms of the rules are as follows.

Some of the wording could be redone to be more clear and concise.

Stat line Card Diagram looks quite sloppy and can be a bit hard to read (High res image and better pointers could help) *beta* I know

Would recommend a different font as well for all text.

That is all for now. This game at least for my club and I is shaping up to become our primary tabletop game. Our games lasted roughly 30 - 40 min each, the rules were very easy for us to pick up and the game was fun from the start not to mention the more beer we drank the more fun it got :^)

This sounds just great. I did not have the chance to playtest the rules yet and I might not be able to for quite some time, so it's nice that you guys took the time to give your feedback. The problem now is reining my excitement.

Thanks for feedback :], we'll incorporate these changes with v1.1
Thanks again and more to come

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:


This sounds just great. I did not have the chance to playtest the rules yet and I might not be able to for quite some time, so it's nice that you guys took the time to give your feedback. The problem now is reining my excitement.

Thanks for feedback :], we'll incorporate these changes with v1.1
Thanks again and more to come

I know that I am being impatient as I know that I might have asked this before, but are we seeing the renders of the Armoured Chasseurs any time soon? Pleaseeeeee?

Some WIP renders of the hussar from their facebook group



Looks nice, but something is off with the "shoulderpads".
I think that its because the upper part of the armor were the shoulder is the armor sits further away from the arm then the lower part.
I think it would look better if they pulled the top part in so it overlaps the chest pice, then you could put straps under it with attachments to the upper chest plate front and back. I think it would look cool and ad detail.
Maybe shrink the "fins".
Alt 2 same as above but remove the "fins" altogether and flat armor bits to the to the top of the shoulders towards the neck that attaches to the main shoulder armor with a flexible joint to connect them like the lower part of the shoulder armor already has.

And by the way.. I dont think his lower jaw would fit in that helmet. just saying.

Other than that i think it looks really cool!!

I can see why they went wider with the shoulder pads (or at least further from the torso). It facilitates the arms being separate pieces. But something does feel just ever so slightly off about them and I think it is probably the upper width. It they could overlap or get it a bit closer then it would probably be fine. That said, the attention to detail is amazing (especially on all the fittings) and that leg armour in looking great. Definitely a good start. The more I look at it, the more I like it. Can't wait to see the other helmet option.

It may be wiser to have the shoulder armor as separate piece altogether the way they are mounted now. But we will see what they come up with.