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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Prodos wrote:

Bob we do care.

Maybe you could let me know what characteristics of plastic your particularly like and equally what of resin you do not.

The reason I ask is that although WZR mini arenot be made of 'styrene' plastic, famous from GW. The resin we are using is different to any other mini manufacturer out there and has very different characteristics to the FW or finecast resin, and is equally different to that you may have seen from maximini, Mantic or PP. Technically our resin is a plastic (although not styrene which the gaming community know as plastic)

I look forward to reading your thoughts

Well, one of the most important aspects of plastic (in the community's sense) is that it works with plastic glue. Plastic glue creates an instant adhesion, yet the join remains adjustable for a while allowing me to get a pose exactly how I want it. This is especially important for models with separate arms that need to connect to the torso and also with each other or hold a rifle. The sheer frustration I feel when gluing restic or metal minis has devalued those media for me (especially trying to make Mantic's restic Corporation minis look like they are actually aiming their weapons, or assembling similar models).

Resin tends to be difficult to clean and paint and also difficult to keep intact. Restic is even worse for cleaning. Metal isn't too bad for mold lines and flash, but is a nightmare when I want to use it in a conversion. Plastic (the styrene used by GW, WGF, Renedra, etc.) is easy to clean, durable and easy to convert. I am more than willing to deal with slightly 'softer' detail or a lack of undercuts for the sheer joy of working with actual plastic. Pieces tend to fit better, too, which means I don't have to worry as much about gap filling or sanding or any of the parts of modelling I don't like. Then there's the fact that plastic usually comes on sprues, which means more models per box or unit of money, or else more options and bits.

After dealing with Sedition Wars and Kings of War, I have realized that I just don't enjoy working with media other than plastic enough to warrant the expense, especially when Dreamforge and WGF and Mantic will all be producing kits that fit just about every niche I'm interested in--and all in plastic.

When I saw your Kickstarter, I was very excited. I already enjoy my old Warzone "plastic" figures, even if they are not the best kind of plastic, and your sculpts look superior to them in every way. When I heard the main troops for each faction would be plastic, I was sold. Now that I know there will be no plastics, all of my excitement is gone. Instead of great plastic kits, your products sound like they will be comparatively more expensive per model with fewer options, less bling, and a whole lot less fun to assemble and paint. Instead of standing out from the over-glutted sci-fi mini market, your products now seem to blend right in with all the other boutique-scale sci fi products that look interesting but not special enough to buy.

However, I would like to hear more about what makes your "not plastic but not resin" material different from what's already on the market. Maybe there is some advantage to it that is not yet obvious?

Ok, first things first. It is not restic (Mantic style) nor Metal. Equally the old WZ miniatures could not be glued with styrene glue (as not syrene plastic either).

Here in the UK it is possible to get a superglue that doesnt instantly set hard, so allows some of the posing you talk about with styrene and styrene glue. (Loctite PowerFlex). I agree sticking restic and metal is frustrating. But our resin is as different to them as they are each other.

Again I agree some resins are difficult to clean and paint. Especially if the moulds have mis aligned or the manufacturer has used a release agent. We do not have need for a release agent and we are minimising mould slip. One can paint directly on our models using the traditional processes used on metal and styrene. (BTW if you use purity seal on the resin that doesnt hold paint it acts to seal the resin allowing paint to attach). Again I agree flash on Restic and Metal is very hard to deal with. Having put over 100 WZR models together I can state that the flash comes away easily with a craft knife.

Regarding your last question. Imagine a five pointed star. On each point put Metal, Restic, Styrene, FW/Finecast, then WZR material. Thats the difference. WZR doesnt fit under the same point as FW/FC resin. So here's the pluses: near zero bubbles, easy to clean, easy to put together as little to no 'slip', easy to paint (no pre-prep needed), very fine detail (cigars, realscale blades needles etc), fine detail on the model, convertability (models can be kit bashed).

Regarding '' your products sound like they will be comparatively more expensive per model with fewer options, less bling, and a whole lot less fun to assemble and paint. Instead of standing out from the over-glutted sci-fi mini market, your products now seem to blend right in with all the other boutique-scale sci fi products that look interesting but not special enough to buy.'' I fail to see how the nature of the model and its 'bling' is changed by being in plastic or resin, that makes no sense at all.

Price-wise, a box of Praetorian Stalkers costs less than 33% of the price of the same amount of GW Centorians.

Prodos wrote:

Ok, first things first. It is not restic (Mantic style) nor Metal. Equally the old WZ miniatures could not be glued with styrene glue (as not syrene plastic either). [Yes, I know. That is why I used quotation marks on the word plastic.]

Here in the UK it is possible to get a superglue that doesnt instantly set hard, so allows some of the posing you talk about with styrene and styrene glue. (Loctite PowerFlex). I agree sticking restic and metal is frustrating. But our resin is as different to them as they are each other.

Again I agree some resins are difficult to clean and paint. Especially if the moulds have mis aligned or the manufacturer has used a release agent. We do not have need for a release agent and we are minimising mould slip. One can paint directly on our models using the traditional processes used on metal and styrene. (BTW if you use purity seal on the resin that doesnt hold paint it acts to seal the resin allowing paint to attach). Again I agree flash on Restic and Metal is very hard to deal with. Having put over 100 WZR models together I can state that the flash comes away easily with a craft knife.

Regarding your last question. Imagine a five pointed star. On each point put Metal, Restic, Styrene, FW/Finecast, then WZR material. Thats the difference. WZR doesnt fit under the same point as FW/FC resin. So here's the pluses: near zero bubbles, easy to clean, easy to put together as little to no 'slip', easy to paint (no pre-prep needed), very fine detail (cigars, realscale blades needles etc), fine detail on the model, convertability (models can be kit bashed).

I had not heard about Loctite PowerFlex or spraying resin with sealer before. I will have to try those out. Thank you for the tip.

Your material sounds more impressive now, but then so did Sedition Wars' 'plastic' during their Kickstarter. I'll buy a box of your troops when they come out and try them out. If the material is even half as excellent as you describe, then I will buy all the kits I wanted to get when I thought they were plastic, and probably more since the elites will be in this same material, all while singing your praises. I actually hope that comes to pass, because I still want to love your new Warzone models.

Regarding '' your products sound like they will be comparatively more expensive per model with fewer options, less bling, and a whole lot less fun to assemble and paint. Instead of standing out from the over-glutted sci-fi mini market, your products now seem to blend right in with all the other boutique-scale sci fi products that look interesting but not special enough to buy.'' I fail to see how the nature of the model and its 'bling' is changed by being in plastic or resin, that makes no sense at all.

Price-wise, a box of Praetorian Stalkers costs less than 33% of the price of the same amount of GW Centorians.

First of all, I don't know what GW's Centorians are. However, using GW's prices to make a point about the cost of styrene figures is almost as crazy as GW's prices themselves.

Second, plastic kits usually come in boxes of twenty or more figures for a price-per-figure that is much less than you see in most restic kits, never mind resin or metal. Take a look at the difference in pricing between Mantic's plastic kits and their restic kits, for example.

Third, plastic kits come in sprues, which usually have lots of optional heads, extra arms, extra weapons, pouches, armor plates, and other "bling" filling out the gaps in the sprue. Most metal, resin or restic kits are lucky to have a spare head or alternate weapon choice. For me, those bits of bling increase the perceived value of a kit by quite a lot. For example, I bought an entire box of WGF orks just for a lot of the bits on the sprue.

I have already gone over why I find non-plastic models to be less fun to assemble.

For the rest of the quote, there are tons of sci fi and fantasy models that just hit the market. Kickstarter is choked with new miniatures projects. Your stuff is hitting the market within a couple of years of Mantic's Deadzone, WGF's new kits, Dreamforge, Wyrd, Deep Wars, Dystopian Legions, Bones, Dungeon Crawler, Victoria Minis, Raging Heroes, Relic Knights, WWX, Blackwater Gulch, Brushfire (plastics!), Toys for your Toys, that new 6mm company, Robotech Tactics, Thon (when it comes back), Gates of Anatres (when it comes back (just kidding!)), Judge Dredd, Warlord Games something-or-other, Hell Dorado, Kingdom Death (if it hits retail), Sedition Wars, Hasslefree's new stuff, Heresy's new stuff, Mecha Front, CAV Bones, all those 15mm kits that just came out, that guy with the super-cheap metal models that look like Colonial Marines, Zvezda's stuff (if it ever hits retail here), Oathsworn's Sci Fi kits (if they ever come back), Infiniti, Dust, and so on and so on. Not all of them are boutique quality, but then not all of them are boutique prices. The one thing they all have in common is that they are all competing to survive in a sci fi wargaming market already dominated by 40k and WM/H, behemoths that render any other company's market share 'quaint' in comparison. Oh, and they are all your competition. And I've probably forgotten more than I've remembered because there are just so many sci fi miniatures out there right now and so few of them are truly remarkable. Hopefully WZR will be.

Despite the large number of games and minis, I think that there is still lots of room in the sci fi miniature market. There are lots of designs that do not exist and most of the stuff on the market is expensive when compared to fantasy or historical figures.

I am very suspicious of the material that Prodos is using. However, if it is good and the price is reasonable, then I will definitely buy some. I have fond memories of Warzone, and hope the new stuff is great.

Yay, still looking forward to this. Not upset by the delay here as I have four different minature projects on my hobby desk(I refuse to call it a work bench) so it isnt like I am twiddling my thumbs waiting. Made major break throughs on paint schemes on two of them last night so yay, hands are full much to wife's chagrin.

I dont play Infinity but I can see the simularity in model flavor. That said, I dont play Infinity and think the model is awesome and hope I clicked that on my order heheh.

I like resin BTW. Keep up the good work, aside from some early drafts of models I have liked almost everything you guys have shown us. Glad you did not do Bahaus Jungle fighters before the orders or I might really have had some serious self debates on what to get.

Prodos - I'm thinking maybe a video showing the quality difference between your material and PP style restic might be a good idea. I know there's that picture showing the flexibility of the material, but actually showing it in action might not be a bad idea.

Also, would it be possible to do a size comparison between the Bauhaus Vulkan and the Mishima Meka?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Spoiler:

Prodos wrote:

Ok, first things first. It is not restic (Mantic style) nor Metal. Equally the old WZ miniatures could not be glued with styrene glue (as not syrene plastic either). [Yes, I know. That is why I used quotation marks on the word plastic.]

Here in the UK it is possible to get a superglue that doesnt instantly set hard, so allows some of the posing you talk about with styrene and styrene glue. (Loctite PowerFlex). I agree sticking restic and metal is frustrating. But our resin is as different to them as they are each other.

Again I agree some resins are difficult to clean and paint. Especially if the moulds have mis aligned or the manufacturer has used a release agent. We do not have need for a release agent and we are minimising mould slip. One can paint directly on our models using the traditional processes used on metal and styrene. (BTW if you use purity seal on the resin that doesnt hold paint it acts to seal the resin allowing paint to attach). Again I agree flash on Restic and Metal is very hard to deal with. Having put over 100 WZR models together I can state that the flash comes away easily with a craft knife.

Regarding your last question. Imagine a five pointed star. On each point put Metal, Restic, Styrene, FW/Finecast, then WZR material. Thats the difference. WZR doesnt fit under the same point as FW/FC resin. So here's the pluses: near zero bubbles, easy to clean, easy to put together as little to no 'slip', easy to paint (no pre-prep needed), very fine detail (cigars, realscale blades needles etc), fine detail on the model, convertability (models can be kit bashed).

I had not heard about Loctite PowerFlex or spraying resin with sealer before. I will have to try those out. Thank you for the tip.

Your material sounds more impressive now, but then so did Sedition Wars' 'plastic' during their Kickstarter. I'll buy a box of your troops when they come out and try them out. If the material is even half as excellent as you describe, then I will buy all the kits I wanted to get when I thought they were plastic, and probably more since the elites will be in this same material, all while singing your praises. I actually hope that comes to pass, because I still want to love your new Warzone models.

Regarding '' your products sound like they will be comparatively more expensive per model with fewer options, less bling, and a whole lot less fun to assemble and paint. Instead of standing out from the over-glutted sci-fi mini market, your products now seem to blend right in with all the other boutique-scale sci fi products that look interesting but not special enough to buy.'' I fail to see how the nature of the model and its 'bling' is changed by being in plastic or resin, that makes no sense at all.

Price-wise, a box of Praetorian Stalkers costs less than 33% of the price of the same amount of GW Centorians.

First of all, I don't know what GW's Centorians are. However, using GW's prices to make a point about the cost of styrene figures is almost as crazy as GW's prices themselves.

Second, plastic kits usually come in boxes of twenty or more figures for a price-per-figure that is much less than you see in most restic kits, never mind resin or metal. Take a look at the difference in pricing between Mantic's plastic kits and their restic kits, for example.

Third, plastic kits come in sprues, which usually have lots of optional heads, extra arms, extra weapons, pouches, armor plates, and other "bling" filling out the gaps in the sprue. Most metal, resin or restic kits are lucky to have a spare head or alternate weapon choice. For me, those bits of bling increase the perceived value of a kit by quite a lot. For example, I bought an entire box of WGF orks just for a lot of the bits on the sprue.

I have already gone over why I find non-plastic models to be less fun to assemble.

For the rest of the quote, there are tons of sci fi and fantasy models that just hit the market. Kickstarter is choked with new miniatures projects. Your stuff is hitting the market within a couple of years of Mantic's Deadzone, WGF's new kits, Dreamforge, Wyrd, Deep Wars, Dystopian Legions, Bones, Dungeon Crawler, Victoria Minis, Raging Heroes, Relic Knights, WWX, Blackwater Gulch, Brushfire (plastics!), Toys for your Toys, that new 6mm company, Robotech Tactics, Thon (when it comes back), Gates of Anatres (when it comes back (just kidding!)), Judge Dredd, Warlord Games something-or-other, Hell Dorado, Kingdom Death (if it hits retail), Sedition Wars, Hasslefree's new stuff, Heresy's new stuff, Mecha Front, CAV Bones, all those 15mm kits that just came out, that guy with the super-cheap metal models that look like Colonial Marines, Zvezda's stuff (if it ever hits retail here), Oathsworn's Sci Fi kits (if they ever come back), Infiniti, Dust, and so on and so on. Not all of them are boutique quality, but then not all of them are boutique prices. The one thing they all have in common is that they are all competing to survive in a sci fi wargaming market already dominated by 40k and WM/H, behemoths that render any other company's market share 'quaint' in comparison. Oh, and they are all your competition. And I've probably forgotten more than I've remembered because there are just so many sci fi miniatures out there right now and so few of them are truly remarkable. Hopefully WZR will be.

I'm shocked. That was civilized discussion and exchange of ideas. Although not completely conclusive, I think both talkers can at least say they left with their dignity intact. Both of you should be commended for the lovely example you've just set forward. Bob, that was very sensible. Prodos, thank you for being such a responsive company. It's a shame that it can't be said of more of your contemporaries.

Thank you, Mathieu. I really do hope the models are fun to assemble. Right now, I have whole Kickstarters' worth of unassembled restic models, and I'm sick of it. Plastic and Bonesium are the only two media I can bring myself to work with these days.

If Prodos brings a new, joyful material to the table, they will stand out from the crowd in a big way.

I shall try a box of these in the not to distant future and see how it goes..

I'm going to at the very last grab the Bauhaus lady. Looks like a killer model to paint.

Plus, who doesn't love a chick with a whip?

~Tim?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
I'm going to at the very last grab the Bauhaus lady. Looks like a killer model to paint.

Plus, who doesn't love a chick with a whip?

~Tim?

Toby Kunta Kinte?

I have it on good authority that the back of a wooden hairbrush can be just as... punishing... without leaving welts or occasionally grazing an eye.

That model is still one of the best representations of a soldier and a lady in the wargaming hobby. She and Ada will have so much to talk about.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
I'm going to at the very last grab the Bauhaus lady. Looks like a killer model to paint.

Plus, who doesn't love a chick with a whip?

~Tim?

Toby Kunta Kinte?

I have it on good authority that the back of a wooden hairbrush can be just as... punishing... without leaving welts or occasionally grazing an eye.

That model is still one of the best representations of a soldier and a lady in the wargaming hobby. She and Ada will have so much to talk about.

Gotta agree there. She's actually built like a soldier, not a cheesecake pinup.

~Tim?

Not sure if it's "legal" to ask this question. But, is there anyone out there who can photo some size/scale comparisons between Warzone and Games Workshop?
I'm loving these, and I'm going to get some for some possible Proxies.

Semnos wrote:
Not sure if it's "legal" to ask this question. But, is there anyone out there who can photo some size/scale comparisons between Warzone and Games Workshop?
I'm loving these, and I'm going to get some for some possible Proxies.

I don't think legality is an issue. I'm pretty sure there's somebody on here that could help you out...

~Tim?

I think Prodos is the only one who can pull that off at this time. I would like to see a Free Marine or Seal, next to a space marine and Catachan. I would like to compare size and detail.

Search the internet and the internet provides.

Not actually the model you were looking for but the undead Legionnaire (second from left) is human sized so the rest of their basic humans sized models should be about the same size with variations depending on armour.
Infinity size true scale is where they will be judging by the pic and from what i heard.

Thanks Bubbalicious! I looked but didn't see that one. Probably more to do with the key words I was using.

If anyone finds anymore, that would be awesome.

Looks like there is a Q&A with Mark Rapson (one of the Prodos guys) up at a blog: here.

I am so happy to hear we will be getting generic hero kits in the future (to go along with the build-a-hero rules they previewed a bit of in the latest update).

Wonder what new units will be springing up when the book is released (10 of 'em apparently). That's either enough for a couple per faction or one per and a few extras to fill out Mishima a bit more. Hopefully it will be a mix of old and new concepts to keep both newbies and old timers interested.

Edit - Also, not sure if these were posted yet:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
I'm going to at the very last grab the Bauhaus lady. Looks like a killer model to paint.

Plus, who doesn't love a chick with a whip?

~Tim?

Toby Kunta Kinte?

I have it on good authority that the back of a wooden hairbrush can be just as... punishing... without leaving welts or occasionally grazing an eye.

That model is still one of the best representations of a soldier and a lady in the wargaming hobby. She and Ada will have so much to talk about.

Gotta agree there. She's actually built like a soldier, not a cheesecake pinup.

~Tim?

It's a shame she was the only one, lol. Every other female soldier needed to be wearing form-fitting "armor" to show off every curve of their body and/or a pair of triple D's in order for people to accept them.

I know that topic's been beaten to death already, but still, it bothers me how at the start of the campaign they said one thing and then essentially ended up doing the opposite. That's worse to me than the lack of plastics, really.

 Sidstyler wrote:


I know that topic's been beaten to death already...

It really has.

 Sidstyler wrote:


That's worse to me than the lack of plastics, really.

I know the Internet lends itself to hyperbole, but... no.

Anyway, what factions are you getting, if not Bauhaus?

Really? I mean I would prefer plastic kits but it doesn't really bother me in the slightest that they can't afford to pursue that right now. I don't really mind material that much and am willing to work with just about anything (not Finecast so much, but that's another topic that's been ground into Finepaste), so I'm much more concerned about the quality of the sculpts than anything else.

As for factions, I don't know if you're addressing me specifically or just putting the question out there for everyone, but I'm not really sure yet. I didn't back the Kickstarter because I figured being in the US it would be better for me to just wait for retail and (hopefully) buy it from my local store. I'm still really interested in Bauhaus though, and I liked Dark Legion at first but when more of the renders got revealed I became very mixed on them, there's a lot of models for them I don't care too much for. I guess Mishima is looking alright but I want to see more units. My brother seems to like Brotherhood a lot.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I know that topic's been beaten to death already, but still, it bothers me how at the start of the campaign they said one thing and then essentially ended up doing the opposite.

It's most likely due to lack of in-house art direction. Prodos is a small team, they outsourced pretty much all designs to freelancers and the only unifying factor between those was the approval process from Paradox and I doubt they paid any attention to keeping the aesthetic unified across factions (Paradox I mean).

So while I chose to design Angelica they way I did, it really was my choice. Others had different ideas. You can't really prevent that from happening unless you can afford the cost of a full time art director.

I must have missed that tibit about you designing her. Kudos. I'll have to pick her up at retail just for that. Nice work HMV.

The 1st Warzone Resurrection Convention:

Just found this.
Wow i really like Mishima

Very sweet miniatures, no doubt about that

Prodos wrote:
The 1st Warzone Resurrection Convention:

After remembering the way Americans and Europeans write dates differently, and that this was in fact, not scheduled in the past,

I feel like its a bit presumtuous scheduling a Con when the game isn't even released yet....

Yeah I had to do a double take on the date as well. March 11th of this year, I'll save the date heheh.

Nothing presumptuous about self-promoting when you expect you product to start going out to KS backers soon. The event is taking place in November after all. Anything that raises awareness and gets them some face time is a good idea for a brand new company. Hopefully this will get them a few more orders and get a few people heading back to their LGS to see about stocking the game.

Is it so weird for a company to run a publicity event (I mean, pre-release events aren't exactly a new concept)? After all, this is hardly the first con the new Warzone has been present at, the only difference is this one will be focused on WZR alone.

Not the first company to drum up excitement for an upcoming product prior to (or possibly even shortly after if we start seeing shipping in September/October) release, and they wont be the last. And I'm sure they wouldn't want to push it back in to the holiday seasons or early next year, so announcing the date now is a good move to keep interest going.

GrandLegion wrote:
Just found this.
Wow i really like Mishima

They do look good. I can easily see some Infinity players using these guys as Japanese Sectorial troops for Yu Jing, too. I see that they've gotten rid of the square pegs the early renders and some of the prototypes had. Glad to see those gone. While I still wish these guys had helmets, I think that they look great and I kind of wish I'd backed for Mishima as well. I guess I'll have to wait until retail for them.

I know at least a few people had to be waiting for shots of this thing. For you, the Orca: