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If you read the fluff for bolt guns its obvious that they should be more powerful than they are, but then the range should be reduced or something to compensate for that

Fluff =/= rules.

If we justified rules to equal what's written in the fluff...well...we wouldn't have much of a game.

Space Marines always win, but Orkz never lose, so right there we have a serious conundrum.

As said above, fluff doesn't equal rules


And remember, everything is scaled and balanced around Space Marines. Maybe SM bolters aren't weak, everything else is just too strong...

Other S 4 weapons:

The Gauss flayer, which rips it's target apart at the molecular level.
Shuriken Catapults, which fire monomolecular disks capable of slicing through steel as if it was paper.
Ork Shootas and Imperial heavy stubbers; heavy machine guns, apparently similar to modern day .50 calibre guns, easily able to blow human limbs off.
Astares shotguns: 'heavy' shotguns (presumably something around 8G) firing solid slugs.

So, I'd say a boltgun fits fairly comfortably in that range.

And lasguns are stronger than modern assault rifles, with a faster rate of fire and have a larger magazine.

 Polonius wrote:
And lasguns are stronger than modern assault rifles, with a faster rate of fire and have a larger magazine.

That can blow limbs off with a high powered shot.

In other words, 40K "science" is sketchy at best.

...and its scaling is based on ALL weapons being pretty darn nasty and strong compared to modern man-portable weaponry.

Yeah, you also have to remember as a rocket it builds up speed after it's left the chamber, accelerates as the rocket burns, then only slows when it's fuel depletes, or more likely hits something and explodes. Which IIRC even the standard bolt round has a sensor that tells it to blow up AFTER it has pentrated a target if it can. I just remember for sure the thing blows up 'inside' a fleshy target.

A normal bullet in contrast is at max velocity the moment it leaves the chamber, and slows the entire way to target. (which yes I know a sniper rifle will take your head off a mile out, but at ten feet it would have hit harder...your head just wouldn't of shown much physical difference.)

I think how it is thought in their heads is that the Str4 of a boltgun or a shoota represents that it will always have a higher chance of killing the typical T3 Man. It is easier to hurt the person and perhaps the chance of failure when the person gets hit is a matter of where the person gets hit. This is all "maybes" though.

And Tau Pulse rifles fire plasma blasts, why aren't they AP 2?

Jefffar wrote:
And Tau Pulse rifles fire plasma blasts, why aren't they AP 2?

because they don't fire plasma blasts. They fire a solid slug that destabilizes into plasma once fired, but it doesn't come near to the power of a true plasma weapon.

S4 AP5
wounds most blobby xenos troops easily ...no save allowed ..
(ie orks have a 6+ save and T4 ..which means that bolt gun wounds on at least half its hits killing them off readily..which is what its designed to kill)

S4 - Capable of shattering most bones and limbs with ease.

A Space Marine is S4, for example, and he can rip your average human apart with his bare hands.

Also, consider S6. For 2 points of strength higher, you can reduce a human into bloody chunks of meat.

I would say S4 for a bolter is reasonable.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Yeah, you also have to remember as a rocket it builds up speed after it's left the chamber, accelerates as the rocket burns, then only slows when it's fuel depletes, or more likely hits something and explodes. Which IIRC even the standard bolt round has a sensor that tells it to blow up AFTER it has pentrated a target if it can. I just remember for sure the thing blows up 'inside' a fleshy target.

A normal bullet in contrast is at max velocity the moment it leaves the chamber, and slows the entire way to target. (which yes I know a sniper rifle will take your head off a mile out, but at ten feet it would have hit harder...your head just wouldn't of shown much physical difference.)

yes, which means that when the rocket exits the chamber it has very low velocity. You could for instance come up and put your hand over the muzzle and keep the thing from ever leaving the gun.

You want more accurate stats, go play the roll play games!

Where you're not limited to a 1-10 scale

Or use the "Movie Marine" Stats.....

And not to mention that while bolters are "rocket launcher machine guns", they seem to operate like any other normal bullet guns if the video games are to be believed

 Exergy wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Yeah, you also have to remember as a rocket it builds up speed after it's left the chamber, accelerates as the rocket burns, then only slows when it's fuel depletes, or more likely hits something and explodes. Which IIRC even the standard bolt round has a sensor that tells it to blow up AFTER it has pentrated a target if it can. I just remember for sure the thing blows up 'inside' a fleshy target.

A normal bullet in contrast is at max velocity the moment it leaves the chamber, and slows the entire way to target. (which yes I know a sniper rifle will take your head off a mile out, but at ten feet it would have hit harder...your head just wouldn't of shown much physical difference.)

yes, which means that when the rocket exits the chamber it has very low velocity. You could for instance come up and put your hand over the muzzle and keep the thing from ever leaving the gun.

No, bolters have both the explosive initial charge of a regular bullet and a rocket engine. Low velocity is relative in this case. The bolt will still kill you just as dead, just not with as much force as if it had some distance to speed up.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Yeah, you also have to remember as a rocket it builds up speed after it's left the chamber, accelerates as the rocket burns, then only slows when it's fuel depletes, or more likely hits something and explodes. Which IIRC even the standard bolt round has a sensor that tells it to blow up AFTER it has pentrated a target if it can. I just remember for sure the thing blows up 'inside' a fleshy target.

A normal bullet in contrast is at max velocity the moment it leaves the chamber, and slows the entire way to target. (which yes I know a sniper rifle will take your head off a mile out, but at ten feet it would have hit harder...your head just wouldn't of shown much physical difference.)

yes, which means that when the rocket exits the chamber it has very low velocity. You could for instance come up and put your hand over the muzzle and keep the thing from ever leaving the gun.

No, bolters have both the explosive initial charge of a regular bullet and a rocket engine. Low velocity is relative in this case. The bolt will still kill you just as dead, just not with as much force as if it had some distance to speed up.

yes, well in any event additional velocity doesnt nessisarily do much. It is an explosive round so all it needs to do is get there. The rocket propelled addition would probably just be so you didnt need as much of an initial charge to get the thing going. That would mean you could carry more ammo, fire rounds faster and for a longer period of time. There are too many unknowns to say, this weapon should really be stronger or less powerful.

The explosive charge is meant to explode after penetrating the target, it doesn't explode on impact. So it does need power to enter the target like a normal bullet.

Which makes the round much more deadly than a normal bullet. Sometimes impact isn't enough to kill the target, you need to literally blow it apart.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The explosive charge is meant to explode after penetrating the target, it doesn't explode on impact. So it does need power to enter the target like a normal bullet.

Which makes the round much more deadly than a normal bullet. Sometimes impact isn't enough to kill the target, you need to literally blow it apart.

sure, more deadly than a normal 2nd millenium bullet.
more deadly than a 40th millenium str3 ap - bullet.(surely they made some advances)

 Exergy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The explosive charge is meant to explode after penetrating the target, it doesn't explode on impact. So it does need power to enter the target like a normal bullet.

Which makes the round much more deadly than a normal bullet. Sometimes impact isn't enough to kill the target, you need to literally blow it apart.

sure, more deadly than a normal 2nd millenium bullet.
more deadly than a 40th millenium str3 ap - bullet.(surely they made some advances)

Yeah, advances were made, but the thing is....they don't use bullets anymore...

Autoguns/Stubguns use "bullets" but it's been said in the BRB and other places that most Auto and Stub guns are nothing more than 2nd Millennium firearms in terms of power.

Point being, Str 4 is pretty strong when put in context with other weapons. Not quite sure if the bolter should be AP5, I feel like it should be able to pierce carapace like armor, but they don't want to make Space Marines even more glorified than they already are.

The strength scale in this game is higher than you think op,

As stated strength 4 includes, gauss flayers which literally strip organic matter, extremely High caliber rounds (stubbers, etc)

Push it further tau pulse rifles are technically magnetically induced plasma rounds and they are str 5

At the far end of the scale lascannons are used to bring down void shields which are energy based shields based off displacement using the warp

So personallly I think its quite accurate

A lasgun is superior to modern firearms in every respect.
And look how lame they look in comparison to bolters.

Guardslayer wrote:
If you read the fluff for bolt guns its obvious that they should be more powerful than they are, but then the range should be reduced or something to compensate for that

S4 fits them perfectly, significantly more capable than modern rifle equivalents like lasguns, on par with weapons like Mortars, heavy AA machine guns, etc.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
And Tau Pulse rifles fire plasma blasts, why aren't they AP 2?

because they don't fire plasma blasts. They fire a solid slug that destabilizes into plasma once fired, but it doesn't come near to the power of a true plasma weapon.

Yup. Imperial Plasma weaponry essentially fires a small star.

real Tau plasma is similar to Imperial Plasma, its just weaker because the Tau can only tolerate a 0% failure rate.

Imperial Plasma is more powerful, but the process of venting can injure the user. Or the gun can be deliberatly rigged to explode.


A pulse rifle is actually more like a miniature railgun, which creates plasma when it fires.

 Grey Templar wrote:
real Tau plasma is similar to Imperial Plasma, its just weaker because the Tau can only tolerate a 0% failure rate.

Imperial Plasma is more powerful, but the process of venting can injure the user. Or the gun can be deliberatly rigged to explode.


A pulse rifle is actually more like a miniature railgun, which creates plasma when it fires.

Now it is anyways, Imperial used to have better success rates, it used to be CHAOS that fired at max power without care for risk.

Ah the changing of fluff.

That has more to do with the rules not accuratly reflecting the fluff.


Imperial Plasma rarely fails completely, turning the weapon into a bomb. What Gets Hot really represents is the weapon's safety systems disabling the weapon and/or injuring the wielder, which removes him and the weapon from the battlefield.

Every time a IG guy fails his Gets Hot roll its more likely that he simply burned his hands or his gun doesn't work anymore and needs to get seen by a Techpriest to reset it. And like a good little soldier he heads back to immediatly have the precious relic looked at.

The rules have become more streamlined which means less detail in what actually happened.


And in the Imperium, bodies are their greatest commodity. A soldier can be replaced cheaply, equipment is expensive. So if the equipment occasionally kills or injures a soldier its more than acceptable.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Guardslayer wrote:
If you read the fluff for bolt guns its obvious that they should be more powerful than they are, but then the range should be reduced or something to compensate for that

S4 fits them perfectly, significantly more capable than modern rifle equivalents like lasguns, on par with weapons like Mortars, heavy AA machine guns, etc.

It's good that you bring up Mortars. What's the stats on a Mortar you ask? S4 AP6 Heavy 1, Blast. So in comparison, a Bolter is a hand held, portable, rapid firing mortar with better armor penetration and lower blast radius.

How can that be construed as weak?

Why are Impaler Cannons, giant spikes capable of ripping through tanks, only AP 4? Why is a Rupture Cannon, which has a good chance of damaging of Land Raiders, only AP 4? Why is a Lasgun shot glancing off a Flying Hive Tyrant's carapace capable of sending it crashing to the ground? How are Lasguns even cost effective weapons? How does a Carnifex surrounded by Guardsmen miss a close combat attack? Why can't Lictors actually ambush? Why Pyrovores?