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Are the burning chariots really as horribad as they seem? They can't fire any of their guns when they move or deepstrike despite being a fast chariot seems extremely contradictory to me.

magicafiend wrote:
Are the burning chariots really as horribad as they seem? They can't fire any of their guns when they move or deepstrike despite being a fast chariot seems extremely contradictory to me.

What stops them firing when they deepstrike?

 StarHunter25 wrote:
So they didnt pull a C:CSM copypasta deal with daemons then. might actually head down to the FLGS for a looksee.

PS: are skullcrushers finally cavalry? I love those models and really want to throw them in with my daemon allies

Yeah but they lost the 3+ armour, and are now t4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Im going with no, too random, your tactics mean nothing if it goes stupid on you, the entire point of list building is to lower the reliance on luck.

Im sure something will pop up thats not half bad.

Sure...

Because there's absolutely nothing competitive about a Herald of Slaanesh w/Greater Etherblade + Lesser roll + Steed + Exalted Locus of Beguilement leading a squad of Fiends/Seekers.
I mean, she only makes every single non-3++ character or Shadowfield Archon weep. God forbid she actually gets the Cleaving Blow roll for her lesser gift! Oh dear, now every 6 to-hit she rolls is S9! (and of corse, w/re-roll all missed to-hit rolls she'll NEVER roll 6's...)
And of corse, a unit with rending re-rolling missed to-hit rolls will just bounce off of 2+ saves every single time...

Yep, useless codex is useless... (aparently)

That's it folks, the intertubes have spoken! Time to sell our armies and go play Longwang spam or a Flying french Bakery!

Necron flier armies are house, so that shows what you know. And I said I didnt think they were competitve (meaning high teir gaming) and you go looney tunes, switch to decaf, jesus.

Eldercaveman wrote:

magicafiend wrote:
Are the burning chariots really as horribad as they seem? They can't fire any of their guns when they move or deepstrike despite being a fast chariot seems extremely contradictory to me.

What stops them firing when they deepstrike?

Because while the chariot is fast, the chariot isn't shooting. The Exalted Flamer riding it is shooting. And because a Deep Striking vehicle counts as cruising, the passenger can only fire Snap Shots. One gift is a Heavy weapon, the other is a Template, so the Burning Chariot is *hilariously* bad to the point where I can't tell which author designed it.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 StarHunter25 wrote:
So they didnt pull a C:CSM copypasta deal with daemons then. might actually head down to the FLGS for a looksee.

PS: are skullcrushers finally cavalry? I love those models and really want to throw them in with my daemon allies

Yeah but they lost the 3+ armour, and are now t4.

IMO Bloodcrushers are unusably bad. Losing the 3+ save and a point of toughness was too much, even when you figure that they became Cavalry. If you compare them to Seekers, they really look bad.

Bloodcrushers:
45 points buys you one 3 wound T4 model with a 5++, 3 AP3 (4 on the charge) attacks at I4

Seekers:
48 points buys you four 1 wound T3 models with a 5++, 12 rending (16 on the charge) attacks (total) at i5.

The Seekers may be only T3, but could make up for it with more wounds per point spend, and will generally hit first, leaving fewer models to strike back. You can equip them with a banner that lowers the enemy's WS for even fewer incoming wounds.

Crushers just aren't worth their points anymore. Which is sad because I love the model.

 GreyHamster wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

magicafiend wrote:
Are the burning chariots really as horribad as they seem? They can't fire any of their guns when they move or deepstrike despite being a fast chariot seems extremely contradictory to me.

What stops them firing when they deepstrike?

Because while the chariot is fast, the chariot isn't shooting. The Exalted Flamer riding it is shooting. And because a Deep Striking vehicle counts as cruising, the passenger can only fire Snap Shots. One gift is a Heavy weapon, the other is a Template, so the Burning Chariot is *hilariously* bad to the point where I can't tell which author designed it.

Ah OK, so that was played wrong against me then, I said that it probably could fire, since it's cruising speed, and you can fire one weapon at full BS and the rest as snap shots, not realising that it is the passenger that fires. Yeah that is pretty bad

Eldercaveman wrote:
One question I had after playing it was, does the warp storm, that causes the lightning thing(?) (a bit like Storm lords lightning) does it effect Flyers/FMC's. Or is this going to be another one of those things that needs an FAQ, and untill then we can expect a infinite amount of merry-go round arguments in YMDC?

I don't think it would affect Flyers/FMC's. They're auto hits. They're not snap shots, etc.

 undertow wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
One question I had after playing it was, does the warp storm, that causes the lightning thing(?) (a bit like Storm lords lightning) does it effect Flyers/FMC's. Or is this going to be another one of those things that needs an FAQ, and untill then we can expect a infinite amount of merry-go round arguments in YMDC?

I don't think it would affect Flyers/FMC's. They're auto hits. They're not snap shots, etc.

This was my thinking, but the game was over VASSAL so I didn't have the energy, nor a copy of the codex, to get into a proper discussion about it. I'd be interested to see the actual wording of the rule.

Another question, can I put heralds in my chaos space marine units now or are they only able to join units from their own codex. (what about daemons the CSM codex?)?

what happens if slany units drop my I by 5 and I have less then i6base , it doesnt say it reduces the I to minimum of 1 and unit that has a 0 in a stat cant use it ?

So i'm just theorying to myself...20 pink horror's, with a herald. Herald takes 3 mastery levels, and the locus that makes psychic power's stronger for him/her/itself, and its unit. It also takes prescience.

Both the squad, and the herald, then take the tzeentch primaris power. If they get their psychic powers off (On a leadership of 10 for being tzeentch) they get 4d6 shot's with prescience, and 3d6 shot's with ballistic skill 4. This averages about 21, strength 6 shot's. And can go up to 42 strength 6 shot's.

All this, for a fairly cheap unit with a herald, that is scoring. 24 inch range.

Damnnnnnnn, that's good. I'd take 4 squad's of just that, they could blast away pretty much everything, give army-wide good deny the witch, have a ton of models to chew through, tons of scoring, and utterly monstrous amount's of firepower

Not to mention it even works against terminator's with 2 toughness test's on any unit that get's wounded, and any failed toughness test, result's in d3 terminator's going boom. Yeah, you might give them feel no pain 6+, but you are shooting enough that it's worth the risk of giving them an ork tshirt save of a feel no pain

Hell, the herald on it's own could camp out somewhere safe, like behind an aegis, and get 4d6 shot's at strength 6, for only slightly more than a space marine captain in points cost.

And you can have 4
Damn, I like this

And then someone Denies the Witch and makes you sad.

 GreyHamster wrote:
And then someone Denies the Witch and makes you sad.

On a 6+, yeah. I'd say that's a risk you have to take, I diddn't say this is awesome and there is absolutely no drawbacks.

Besides, it's one group of 3d6, and one group of 4d6, so it's unlikely they will deny both, even if they have a psyker in their squad.

Since both the squad and the herald, are mastery level 3 :p

Can we not wait a few weeks before making judgement calls on how strong it will be?

Personally I think it will be same level as the other 6th edition codexs, which is a good thing

 Ozomoto wrote:
Another question, can I put heralds in my chaos space marine units now or are they only able to join units from their own codex. (what about daemons the CSM codex?)?

CD segregates its units and characters from those of other codices on P26.

I don't think, say, a Herald of Nurgle could join a Nurgle-aligned CSM unit with the Daemon rule. The Instability rule on this page is a bit vague and needs FAQing.

 tuiman wrote:
Can we not wait a few weeks before making judgement calls on how strong it will be?

Personally I think it will be same level as the other 6th edition codexs, which is a good thing

Don't ever suggest anything so stupid on Dakka again! Don't you know that the internet must decide if the sky is falling the day of the codex release!

Pink Horror Squads are never ML3. Brotherhood of Sorcerers specifies ML1, and their generation of additional Warp Charge does not override this.

Against *any* psyker target or target near a hood, the 'both go through Deny' result is less probable than 'at least one attempt is Denied'. Against even a non-psyker, there's close to a 1/3 chance that at least one gets denied. Added to the psychic test, the unreliability gets rather high. Given that this is a 300 point unit, it's not particularly impressive.

Certainly there are some things to worry about with Horrors now. All the things that can go wrong, the question is, what is in place to counter balance all that risk?

 GreyHamster wrote:
Pink Horror Squads are never ML3. Brotherhood of Sorcerers specifies ML1, and their generation of additional Warp Charge does not override this.

Against *any* psyker target or target near a hood, the 'both go through Deny' result is less probable than 'at least one attempt is Denied'. Against even a non-psyker, there's close to a 1/3 chance that at least one gets denied. Added to the psychic test, the unreliability gets rather high. Given that this is a 300 point unit, it's not particularly impressive.

I'd call the odd's pretty good myself, but there you go. or else, why would anyone ever run psychic choirs?

Makumba wrote:
what happens if slany units drop my I by 5 and I have less then i6base , it doesnt say it reduces the I to minimum of 1 and unit that has a 0 in a stat cant use it ?

0 stat only applies to WS (can't strike and is auto hit) and STW (you die). I can't find anything that says stats can't be pushed into minus figures; unless that gets FAQ'd or I missed something, Guardsmen will go I-2 and strike after power fists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about several PH blobs, with perhaps some Beasts of Nurgle to help deal with problems inherent to big shooty units that are utterlyrubbish in melee? Sure, one PH blob will often have everything denied, but with stuff like this I wanna take several to ensure decent WPT.

Evileyes wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Pink Horror Squads are never ML3. Brotherhood of Sorcerers specifies ML1, and their generation of additional Warp Charge does not override this.

Against *any* psyker target or target near a hood, the 'both go through Deny' result is less probable than 'at least one attempt is Denied'. Against even a non-psyker, there's close to a 1/3 chance that at least one gets denied. Added to the psychic test, the unreliability gets rather high. Given that this is a 300 point unit, it's not particularly impressive.

I'd call the odd's pretty good myself, but there you go. or else, why would anyone ever run psychic choirs?

Psyker Battle Squads function well because Weaken Resolve does not require you to hit or 'wound' the way a witchfire does. Pass the test and fail the Deny, and it works, no other rolls involved. Their PSA is also capable of becoming a high S blast with low AP, which is worth the risk. Witchfires need to be substantially better than normal shooting attacks to be worthwhile. Flickering Fire spam has three points of failure in addition to needing to hit and wound as normal, the psychic test, the Deny, and the shot count The first two, for a herald+squad, have less than a 60% chance of having both work against a 6+ Deny. Adding in the shot count variance, you're looking at sub-50% effectiveness of just a normal shooting attack with similar profile. Shoot at anything near a Librarian or actually a psyker itself, chances drop even further. There's a small chance of getting a wonderful result where you take nearly forty shots at them, but it's so much less than the chance of getting literally nothing. In a sense it's actually very fluffy, Tzeentch dangling hope out before yanking it away.

I'm actually quite liking the Beam option though. since you can draw the line from any horror, it should be possible to line up 3 or more models with considerable frequency.

Wouldn't take much to chip away at the PH unit and take off one of them FF dice, either. Big blob of T3 isn't hard to hurt.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Wouldn't take much to chip away at the PH unit and take off one of them FF dice, either. Big blob of T3 isn't hard to hurt.

Is if you have 80 horror's on the table ;P

What do people think of the various chariots? And Plague Drones?

Lovepug13 wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

We just checked at our local GW. The aegis defense line does cover 25% of the model and therefore gives the soulgrinder a +2 cover save.

SO AWESOME!

 GreyHamster wrote:

Psyker Battle Squads function well because Weaken Resolve does not require you to hit or 'wound' the way a witchfire does. Pass the test and fail the Deny, and it works, no other rolls involved. Their PSA is also capable of becoming a high S blast with low AP, which is worth the risk. Witchfires need to be substantially better than normal shooting attacks to be worthwhile. Flickering Fire spam has three points of failure in addition to needing to hit and wound as normal, the psychic test, the Deny, and the shot count The first two, for a herald+squad, have less than a 60% chance of having both work against a 6+ Deny. Adding in the shot count variance, you're looking at sub-50% effectiveness of just a normal shooting attack with similar profile. Shoot at anything near a Librarian or actually a psyker itself, chances drop even further. There's a small chance of getting a wonderful result where you take nearly forty shots at them, but it's so much less than the chance of getting literally nothing. In a sense it's actually very fluffy, Tzeentch dangling hope out before yanking it away.

I'm actually quite liking the Beam option though. since you can draw the line from any horror, it should be possible to line up 3 or more models with considerable frequency.

So?
Outside of horribad dice, how many Ld10 psychic tests do you normally fail in a single game?
Take Prescience on the Herald to give re-rolls to-hit.
Also, why are you aiming at/near the Librarian/Psyker's unit? Shoot something that's not protected by that offending Libby/psyker and send your Flamers/Screamers/Fiends/Seekers/whatever to rush in and chomp down on the unit/model that can help buff those Deny the Witch rolls. (Slaaneshii Heralds makes rediculously effective character assassins btw)

Flickering Fire in a large unit is just too tempting to pass on - especially with the exalted locus bonus since S6 means you wound most things on 2's. (that's alot of saves!)
Besides, Infernal Gateway is imposible for the unit to use once it drops to 10 models or less, while the Beam is only good for (maybe) sniping a tank or else giving opponents more Warpflame rolls to pass!

The only time Tzeentch psychic's really get nerfed are;
a) Eldar and their Runes of awsomesauce (so kill a dude to remove - good thing Slaaneshii units are beyond fast!)
b) SW Rune Priest spam (probably the hardest to combat since those deny bubbles are huge and there can be upto 4 of 'em)
c) Grey Knights (Ha! Like Daemons aren't royally fethed already!)

Against everyone else, your opponent needs to get unreasonably lucky to deny a decent amount of your psychic shooting.

 Generalian wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

We just checked at our local GW. The aegis defense line does cover 25% of the model and therefore gives the soulgrinder a +2 cover save.

SO AWESOME!

Is it modeled doing the splits?

My main disappointment with this dex is the lack of ranged firepower. The burning chariot is hilariously bad(GW doesn't know how their own rules work and I bet it will get faq'd) and the soulgrinder only has 3 shots at BS3(rather than the rumoured 6). I just fell like I'm stuck punching tanks to death which as we all know is a crap strategy. Is the only way to deal with this to ally in some CSM or guard?

 Eldarain wrote:

 Generalian wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

We just checked at our local GW. The aegis defense line does cover 25% of the model and therefore gives the soulgrinder a +2 cover save.

SO AWESOME!

Is it modeled doing the splits?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.
We used a soulgrinder made by a manager of Games Workshop used in multiple sponsored tournaments.
We measured the model and the Aegis line and then did the math.
The aegis walls (not the raised parts) covers a little more (by almost 3cm) then 25% of the model and is therefore legally giving it cover.

 Gargantuan wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
I can see the random element causing some upset amongst players, I cannot believe that GW keep thinking that the randomness is actually fun.......I dislike they 40k system the more random elements are introduced.

I'm one of those players that enjoy random events and effects

There's a difference between rolling for random objectives or warlord traits and rolling on a table that turns your HQ into a useless pile of sludge if you roll badly.

Rolling bad on a single table should not bork your entire game like that.