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 psychadelicmime wrote:
It's Happening! Now my codex-less tau army will be relevant! I hope it's in may, I have no money for april.

My new High Elf army is feeling a similar thing, but there was no way I was paying for a book for two/three months of play.

As to new Tau, looking forward to seeing what the new stuff looks like, my eldest lad has them as a army, so it'll be going his way.

Backfire wrote:
People are saying "so what if Broadsides lose S10, just take Railheads!" But for what slots we are then supposed to take Sky Rays, Sniper Drones or whatever new units the book might have?

Wait, you mean we might have to make choices as to what to bring in our HS slots? Que horror!

Seriously though - there will be awesome new units, we will have to make tradeoffs, that's pretty much a given even if Broadsides didn't get dropped to S8 instead of S10. That will be a very very happy day, IMO - it'll mean we have an actual, real, honest-to-God workable Codex with more than one viable choice in each FoC slot.

Veskrashen wrote:
That will be a very very happy day, IMO - it'll mean we have an actual, real, honest-to-God workable Codex with more than one viable choice in each FoC slot.

How do you figure? The way I'm seeing things that isn't really going to change much, most of our HS choices are still going to be garbage, but they're making broadsides garbage now so it means we'll either be taking hammerheads or just saying feth it and sticking with the broadsides regardless of change and hoping for the best.

Broadside nerfs don't suddenly make sniper drones and skyrays stop being worthless.

 SonicPara wrote:

ausYenLoWang wrote:
How is this different from devastators/havocks with missile launchers and skyfire? none of them have interceptor, they need to suck up the flyers first shots as well...

Devastators/havocs have more bodies to survive the flyer alpha-strike and so while broadsides will outshoot them when both are kitted out with skyfire, devastators/havocs have a better chance of surviving the flyer and returning fire.

Also, if both units forego skyfire completely, the devastators/havocs far outshoot the broadsides against ground targets for less points.

Can you start to see why people who chose to play Tau for their ranged combat mastery are upset both from a gameplay and thematic standpoint?

i was talking a base squad of 5 guys, broadsides also have more wounds less bodies but more wounds, but hey if i take 10 havoks i can still plop the template on the ones with the missile launchers and wipe them out on 2's where as the broadsides will only lose a wound... so in the case of baleflamer the broadsides will survive its first hit whereas devs and havoks dont..

 Sidstyler wrote:
How do you figure? The way I'm seeing things that isn't really going to change much, most of our HS choices are still going to be garbage, but they're making broadsides garbage now so it means we'll either be taking hammerheads or just saying feth it and sticking with the broadsides regardless of change and hoping for the best.

Because I really really doubt we've seen all the changes. So everyone running around like the sky is falling because we're losing S10 on our Broadsides (which gain A.S.S. for free and will be cheaper) are not taking into account that there are likely other changes to compensate for that fact. In other words, we won't NEED S10 Broadsides, because we'll have other options to fill the same role of killing AV13/14. They're probably not going to be EZ Mode point and click from 72" away, but we'll have them.

Broadsides do not function as an alternative to functioning during the assault phase. Jet pack moves and Kroot assault make the phase relevant to tau players.

Railheads are only a gamble against av 14. Properly supported by marker lights they perform beautifully against everything else AND still have a reasonable shot at blowing up a Land Raider. Additionally, the comparatively mobile railhead has a better shot at getting in the side arc. Plus it almost ways has a cover save.

People are entitled to complain about their favorite unit getting the shaft. I understand why some people are upset though I have yet to experience it myself. However, the strategic implications of this change do not threaten the tau as a viable army. Next time maybe don't rely on one unit quite so heavily (especially if also happens to be what in your view is the strongest unit), or upon one tactic or strategy.

The rumor also hinted that Hammerheads lose the multitracker, or more specifically couldn't fire like a fast vehicle anymore. So it's just as mobil as any other tank at this point.

The rumor about the standing still and getting extra shots never bothered to clarify, and I believe will only apply to pulse weapons. Much like how the Dakka Banner only affects bolters. Do you really think they would let all Tau units get extra shots in regardless of weapon type?

Veskrashen wrote:
A 5-man Devastator squad with 4xML has 5 wounds with a 3+ save. 3 man Broadsides have 6 wounds with a 2+ save. The only flyers that Broadsides suffer more casualties from than Devastators, on average, are Vendettas and Doom Scythes - and if you're in cover, you're likely losing the same amount of firepower from each. You're right that ML Devs are cheaper than Broadsides in both configurations - though if Broadsides sans Skyfire are only 60pts each as rumored, and have SMS, they'll put out more firepower than the Devs will. I think you're overstating the case, by quite a bit.

Run the test with an equal costed unit of devastators by purchasing extra marines for the unit. The flyer comes on from reserve, blows away a bunch of the extra marines, the heavy weapon ones are free to return fire superior to a broadside unit.

ausYenLoWang wrote:
i was talking a base squad of 5 guys, broadsides also have more wounds less bodies but more wounds, but hey if i take 10 havoks i can still plop the template on the ones with the missile launchers and wipe them out on 2's where as the broadsides will only lose a wound... so in the case of baleflamer the broadsides will survive its first hit whereas devs and havoks dont..

A base unit of Broadsides isn't 3 suits so at a base unit the broadsides will have less wounds AND less bodies. Things like the baleflamer are the only instance where a Broadside unit is more resilient than an equal costed unit of devastators against a flyer's alpha-strike. Every other situation, assuming equally competent placement of both units, the devastators outshine the Broadsides. I only see two things that the Broadsides have over devastators and that is range (unless that gets nerfed too) and flexibility when skyfire is brought in to the mix. Other than that the devastators outshoot and outlast the Broadsides; and we aren't even considering the threat of assaulters yet.

 erewego86 wrote:
People are entitled to complain about their favorite unit getting the shaft. I understand why some people are upset though I have yet to experience it myself. However, the strategic implications of this change do not threaten the tau as a viable army. Next time maybe don't rely on one unit quite so heavily (especially if also happens to be what in your view is the strongest unit), or upon one tactic or strategy.

We aren't saying it makes Tau rubbish, we are saying it makes Broadsides unnecessarily weak. It isn't just shafting a favorite unit, it is shelving expensive models and countless hours of modelling work as well. No one thinks the change to Broadsides dooms the entire army, it is far too early to tell. It is just an unnecessary nerf to one of the signature units of the Tau.



Long story short, new Broadsides appear to be a husk of their former selves and I'm sure some fancy new model kits will at least partially fill the void in some way. This is not reason to be happy unless you have a stacked wallet.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The rumor also hinted that Hammerheads lose the multitracker, or more specifically couldn't fire like a fast vehicle anymore. So it's just as mobil as any other tank at this point.

The rumor about the standing still and getting extra shots never bothered to clarify, and I believe will only apply to pulse weapons. Much like how the Dakka Banner only affects bolters. Do you really think they would let all Tau units get extra shots in regardless of weapon type?

My read was that it just specified multitracker - nothing was said about them not being able to fire as fast as a blanket statement, IIRC. I'm reserving judgement on this one, especially since I run mech heavy - if true, that definitely changes things for me. Doesn't make things unworkable, but I will need to shift. Happens.

I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility for the Tau Dakka Banner Aura Ability Thingy to apply to all infantry within XXX" or something similar. Especially since this *would* be an excellent way to buff their shooting and compensate for their lack of assault responses. Just like I could see the Overwatch buff being a banner / aura type ability, or need an upgrade for the squad / wargear.

That was always going to be the case with a new codex (or even with a new model release between codexes like the dakka jet)

Buy extra units (new or old) or be less competetive than before

they only way to remain unchanged is to have GW ignore you completely and hope the other new codexes don't strike a killer blow on your old one

any new rumours?

Lovepug13 wrote:
any new rumours?

You mean other than the last 13 pages? Nah.

I just remembered something from a long time ago. They mentioned the ability for Tau to overwatch for other friendly squads, which matches up with the rumor now about squads combining overwatch fire and this would help Broadsides that won't be able to overwatch with Slow and Purposeful. If I remember right, the original rumor stated that a friendly unit had to give up it's shooting phase to overwatch for another unit. Which would be pointless. A Squad in charge range would just not charge every turn and leave units waiting to overwatch a threat that never happens.

And I guess I just read too much into the multi-tracker loss, but it makes sense to me that it won't be able to move and shoot anymore. It is a main battle tank afterall. I really want to see Hammerheads becoming cheaper now, and hope they make Burst cannons more effective. I really can't see the Main battle tank with a buffed up lascannon and two toned down heavy bolters.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
That was always going to be the case with a new codex (or even with a new model release between codexes like the dakka jet)

Buy extra units (new or old) or be less competetive than before

they only way to remain unchanged is to have GW ignore you completely and hope the other new codexes don't strike a killer blow on your old one

Not true with many Marine armies. A lot of the Marine books are so great because the fancy new stuff are simply alternatives that better fit certain playstyles, not clear improvements and now outmatched units. Ward's C:SM did it masterfully with the new units adding to the diversity of the book rather than forcing players into spamming a singular new incredible unit in order to lock up victories. As a result, the C:SM book is still played and generally well liked but I doubt GW appreciated the "gameplay and theme first, marketing second" approach as evidenced by most releases since.

Well I have read them and was wondering if anything else had popped up...

Not to much to expect a few more tidbits or maybe even a photo leak

geeez some people

Lovepug13 wrote:
Well I have read them and was wondering if anything else had popped up...

Not to much to expect a few more tidbits or maybe even a photo leek

geeez some people

As soon as the rumors are found, they will be posted to the thread. It isn't like it requires someone to ask.

But, just because you asked, here's a photo leek:

 SonicPara wrote:
Run the test with an equal costed unit of devastators by purchasing extra marines for the unit. The flyer comes on from reserve, blows away a bunch of the extra marines, the heavy weapon ones are free to return fire superior to a broadside unit.

OK, 10 man DA Dev squad with 4 MLs vs. a 3-man Skyfire Broadside squad? Sure, in that case you have 10 wounds at 3+ vs. 6 wounds at 2+. You still take twice as many casualties on average, since you have twice as many chances to fail your armor save. And again, the only case where you take fewer casualties is the Vendetta - you'll likely take more hits from a Doomscythe's Death Ray. Lost firepower is a lot harder to measure, then, since loss of MLs will depend a lot on wound allocation from a random flyer direction and total casualties suffered.

SonicPara wrote:

ausYenLoWang wrote:
i was talking a base squad of 5 guys, broadsides also have more wounds less bodies but more wounds, but hey if i take 10 havoks i can still plop the template on the ones with the missile launchers and wipe them out on 2's where as the broadsides will only lose a wound... so in the case of baleflamer the broadsides will survive its first hit whereas devs and havoks dont..

A base unit of Broadsides isn't 3 suits so at a base unit the broadsides will have less wounds AND less bodies. Things like the baleflamer are the only instance where a Broadside unit is more resilient than an equal costed unit of devastators against a flyer's alpha-strike. Every other situation, assuming equally competent placement of both units, the devastators outshine the Broadsides. I only see two things that the Broadsides have over devastators and that is range (unless that gets nerfed too) and flexibility when skyfire is brought in to the mix. Other than that the devastators outshoot and outlast the Broadsides; and we aren't even considering the threat of assaulters yet.

Actually I'd say that equal point values of NewSides are more resilient than Devs, in more situations than you care to name. They're more resilient to non-AP2, non-S8+ shooting than Devs are, and that accounts for a majority of shooting out there. You'll take twice as many casualties from Devs as you do NewSides at equal point values, and you won't have twice as many wounds worth of Devs to do it with. Against S8+ AP2 or better shots with "equally competent placement" you're right - Devs lose fewer models, and that's the only instance they do so. Oh, and as far as firepower - as soon as you go beyond the initial 5-man unit of Missile Devs, you're not getting more heavy weapon firepower in that unit, you're just adding bolter shots. 3 NewSides has more firepower than 8 Devs do, period.

Oh, and lets not forget that having S8 AP1 shots are a lot better than having S8 AP3 shots. You have more impact against armor (200% more likely to explode on a pen), kill flyers easier (200% more likely to explode on a pen), kill 2+ save models far more efficiently (roughly 500% more likely to deny the save), and so on. Again, you're really really overstating the case - NewSides are still a good choice. More firepower than an equal amount of Devs, more survivable against more kinds of firepower and flyers than an equal point of Devs, and more effective at killing vehicles than equal points of Devs.

Lovepug13 wrote:
Well I have read them and was wondering if anything else had popped up...

Not to much to expect a few more tidbits or maybe even a photo leak

geeez some people

To be fair the last several pages have largely been debate, I would say you are fine.

Hopefully we get WD scans soon.

Veskrashen wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The rumor also hinted that Hammerheads lose the multitracker, or more specifically couldn't fire like a fast vehicle anymore. So it's just as mobil as any other tank at this point.

The rumor about the standing still and getting extra shots never bothered to clarify, and I believe will only apply to pulse weapons. Much like how the Dakka Banner only affects bolters. Do you really think they would let all Tau units get extra shots in regardless of weapon type?

My read was that it just specified multitracker - nothing was said about them not being able to fire as fast as a blanket statement, IIRC. I'm reserving judgement on this one, especially since I run mech heavy - if true, that definitely changes things for me. Doesn't make things unworkable, but I will need to shift. Happens.

I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility for the Tau Dakka Banner Aura Ability Thingy to apply to all infantry within XXX" or something similar. Especially since this *would* be an excellent way to buff their shooting and compensate for their lack of assault responses. Just like I could see the Overwatch buff being a banner / aura type ability, or need an upgrade for the squad / wargear.

I've always thought that wargear like Dakka banners are lame. I don't use it for my DA. "Hey sarge, stop shooting the enemy and raise that flag so we will shoot even more!" I really hope we don't get anything like that. We already have unique and logical way to enhance our shooting, Markerlight.

Removal of the multitracker might just mean that it's not available as separate option. I mean, nobody ever takes Hammerhead without one, so what's the point?

Lovepug13 wrote:
Well I have read them and was wondering if anything else had popped up...

Not to much to expect a few more tidbits or maybe even a photo leak

geeez some people

There's a couple of the folks who have been leaking rumors about the new dex posting over on the Warseer thread. Couple of the new tidbits from Neko:

- Riptide will not be an uber-Broadside (I read this as no Railguns on it)
- Crisis suits repackaged, but not new ones.
- Plastic Pathfinders, with a Big Drone.
- Flyers will be a gunship and a bomber. Look like upscaled TX-42s.
- No Kroot in the new Battleforce box.

From Shas'O Iceborn:
- Will be a Kroot HQ choice
- 2 "new" special characters
- Rail Rifle / Rail Gun / Rail Cannon are the ways GW is distinguishing between the rail weapons



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backfire wrote:
I've always thought that wargear like Dakka banners are lame. I don't use it for my DA. "Hey sarge, stop shooting the enemy and raise that flag so we will shoot even more!" I really hope we don't get anything like that. We already have unique and logical way to enhance our shooting, Markerlight.

Removal of the multitracker might just mean that it's not available as separate option. I mean, nobody ever takes Hammerhead without one, so what's the point?

Eh, I see the "stand and shoot more" ability as a way to give Tau more volume of shots without making it really really overpowered. Making it wargear / aura dependent also controls it to some degree. If it's pulse weapons only, that'd be another way.

I love me some markerlights, and hope that we see more of them in more slots and cheaper. I've got 2 Tetras just waiting to go; hope they're not nerfed to uselessness.

Given that the rumor is that suits will have Multitrackers standard, I could easily see them doing something similar to Hammerheads. Just like they're giving NewSides free A.S.S. since it was so frequently taken on OldSides.

Veskrashen wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
Well I have read them and was wondering if anything else had popped up...

Not to much to expect a few more tidbits or maybe even a photo leak

geeez some people

There's a couple of the folks who have been leaking rumors about the new dex posting over on the Warseer thread. Couple of the new tidbits from Neko:

- Riptide will not be an uber-Broadside (I read this as no Railguns on it)
- Crisis suits repackaged, but not new ones.
- Plastic Pathfinders, with a Big Drone.
- Flyers will be a gunship and a bomber. Look like upscaled TX-42s.
- No Kroot in the new Battleforce box.

From Shas'O Iceborn:
- Will be a Kroot HQ choice
- 2 "new" special characters
- Rail Rifle / Rail Gun / Rail Cannon are the ways GW is distinguishing between the rail weapons

Thanks for that.........appreciated.

Railheads are only a gamble against av 14. Properly supported by marker lights they perform beautifully against everything else AND still have a reasonable shot at blowing up a Land Raider.

This really isn't that case. Because the railgun gets only one shot, even though it is an impressive shot, you have three separate chances to fail the shot, four if the vehicle has a cover save, and that is enough to make it a gamble against any vehicle. Even against AV10 with no cover save, your chances of a kill shot are only 33%, and it only increases to 42% with marker support. And you are depending on the kill shot, because a single railgun can only take a single hull point per round.

The gamble only gets worse at the armor value goes up. The chances of destroying AV11/AV12/AV13/AV14 are 28%/22%/17%/11% respectively, again with no cover, and 35%/28%/21%/14% with marker support. These numbers simple are not good enough to justify hammerheads as a primary anti-take vehicle. The hammerhead railgun will require a serious buff if it is intended to replace broadside anti-tank shooting, especially because broadsides are typically used to tackle AV13-AV14.

I for one wouldn't mind a more mobile anti-tank platform. Here is hoping the hammerheads get an anti-tank buff and don't lose the ability to fire at cruising speed.

Veskrashen wrote:
There's a couple of the folks who have been leaking rumors about the new dex posting over on the Warseer thread. Couple of the new tidbits from Neko:

- Riptide will not be an uber-Broadside (I read this as no Railguns on it)
- Crisis suits repackaged, but not new ones.
- Plastic Pathfinders, with a Big Drone.
- Flyers will be a gunship and a bomber. Look like upscaled TX-42s.
- No Kroot in the new Battleforce box.

That's really interesting. Crisis suits were one of the only models people really wanted changed. I really hope this is wrong because I can't stand any more warped jetpacks, static poses, awkward balancing on the toes, and the terrible ball joint on the hips. I can never get those to stick right. That would also imply the Broadside is just going to be a Crisis suit with awkwardly balanced cannons and clown shoes.

Was there any mention of markerlight changes? I'm assuming the +1 BS for all units with one hit, removes coversaves with 2 hits will be all we see. Which would make anything more than minimum squad sizes weird.
I wonder what the big drone could possibly be. Could Pathfinders get access to sniperdrones on top of their own rail rifles?

danp164 wrote:
im confused, people saying a nerf to railgun's is good because it will see Broadsides spammed less.... but Tau spam crisis suits, are they going to be nerfed as well to make people spam stealth suit squads?

Before crying broadside spam people should look at the cause, what with hammerheads being easier to knock out of the sky, and sniper drones being lower strength, easier to kill railgun's. The problem isn't the power level its that the other options are undesirable in almost any situation. Here's an idea, if GW are putting Kroot HQ's back in, why not a Kroot Heavy Support, put the Greater Knarloc in the codex, a mid cost Str7 T5 fleeting monstrous creature/beast to enable to codex to be played in a totally different way, and whilst were on the subject, how about shoving some more viable options into the elite category? and for Gods sake either take out the ethereal's as a combat option or make them do something useful.

I mean seriously all the fluff we have shows that ethereal's rarely make the military decisions and normally defer to the fire caste commanders, why is such a high priority target even on the battlefield?


Just my 50 pence worth

The reason why anyone spams anything in any army is that it has a clear advantage over the rest of the units in that codex.

If people don't like spamming, they need to persuade GW not to write crappy unbalanced codexes.

Unfortunately I do not think that goal is achievable as I believe the bulk of GW's sales are to early teens who have not developed the judgement to recognise and deprecate spamming.

Didn't see anything for markerlights other than the +1 BS and remove cover options. You're right that it means min sized PF squads, unless they can take something else cool, or have split fire.

As far as the Big Drone - could be Heavy Gun Drones, could be Sniper Drones. Could be the new rumored drone that gives Shrouding like Stealth Suits are supposed to get (that'd be a big, and welcome, change). There weren't any specifics that I could see.

Lots of tau haters around spreading false rumors, the battlesuits are not only being re-done, but have been re-done for a while.

Veskrashen wrote:
as the Big Drone - could be Heavy Gun Drones

Oh please no. I'll take S6 AP3 Broadside Railguns before I accept those abominations

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Veskrashen wrote:
as the Big Drone - could be Heavy Gun Drones

Oh please no. I'll take S6 AP3 Broadside Railguns before I accept those abominations

Depends on what they're carrying, IMO. If it's more burst cannons, then totally agree. If it's Missile Pods, or Fusion Blasters, or Plasma Rifles... totally different story IMO.

 juraigamer wrote:
Lots of tau haters around spreading false rumors, the battlesuits are not only being re-done, but have been re-done for a while.

That's what I was thinking too. We've had rumors for a long time that the models were done and looked amazing. From the same source as the Platemail Firedragons for Chaos too if I remember right.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Lots of tau haters around spreading false rumors, the battlesuits are not only being re-done, but have been re-done for a while.

That's what I was thinking too. We've had rumors for a long time that the models were done and looked amazing. From the same source as the Platemail Firedragons for Chaos too if I remember right.

This is what I'm betting on as well, but passing on rumors that I saw because the source has had several of them that seem to be corroborated by other sources.