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 Kingsley wrote:

The bestiary entry for Fire Warriors shown in White Dwarf says that Fire Warriors can be equipped with either Pulse Rifles or Pulse Carbines, so it looks like no worries there. Besides, I doubt GW would take an option like that away from the army, especially since the pulse carbines are physically present on Fire Warrior sprues...

They most likely are interchangeable, but if PRs truly are 24" range then there is no reason to take them over PCs. Which is one reason I don't believe the range rumor. The other reason is that a change that huge would not be overlooked by the reliable rumormongers.
If PRs are 30", then I think PCs will be a competitive alternative, depending on whether you want a stationary gun line, or a mobile guerrilla unit.

Then there's the question of whether FWs can even take those new drones...

Just have to wait.

Burst Cannons might be good, if Crisis and Stealth suit teams can take the Pulse accelerator Drone.


A reduction is pulse rifle range would suck, no arguing otherwise. GW could be trying to make players buy new models for the carbines but not sure if this method would work.
Problem is that by the current "rumours" the drones and HQ's are going to make FW teams more expensive than they are now for a very limited improvement that also sacrifices mobility. I just don't think that the idea of spending more points to for what seems to be a lateral improvement will get tau players to switch to new carbine equipped models .

Really, more points than the current overcosted units should equal a readily identifiable increase in performance. But hey, these are just rumours so it is all just speculation.


As to other speculation,
The description of Commander Farsight (WD, Page 85 of the Battlesuits article) sounds like he may still have a gimped FOC.

A good rumor side to the Burst Cannon rumour is that it sounds like the D-fish and Hammerhead will have range 36" Burst Cannons. If true, this would somewhat balance the pervasive rumores of speed and D-pod nerfs.



Some pet peeves,
Darkstriders name "Myamoto" does not fit with the established Tau language and naming conventions. Seriously, "How hard would it to have been to insert the apostrophes so that it was El'mya'mo'to?"
Or even better and some what humorous, "El'mya'mo'tau"?

Additionally, from everything that we have seen officially released about the new Codex, it seems that GW went heavily with the Tau as a xeno guard army theme. If the rest of the codex follows this theme then GW will have effectively ruined the Tau for me.
Again, don't know until the codex comes out but The Cadre Fireblade & Tank commander Pas*..*cough* *cough* Long Knifes' abilities along with the rumoured Ethereal leadership bubbles and all of the new blast weapons just sound to IG for my liking.

If the new wargear adds six inches to the range and 1 shot to the firepower of the carbine (or possibly every pulse weapon in the bubble) then the carbine becomes a very viable alternative to the rifle, allowing Fire Warriors to move and shoot a considerable volume of fire at good ranges. The short range of the burst cannon also becomes less to worry about.

It is a big "if" though. Perhaps each unit must carry its own enhancement drones.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If the new wargear adds six inches to the range and 1 shot to the firepower of the carbine (or possibly every pulse weapon in the bubble) then the carbine becomes a very viable alternative to the rifle, allowing Fire Warriors to move and shoot a considerable volume of fire at good ranges. The short range of the burst cannon also becomes less to worry about.

It is a big "if" though. Perhaps each unit must carry its own enhancement drones.

By the current info, the extra shot only comes with the Cadre Fireblade and only if the unit remains stationary. So, yes Carbine will be an option but the counter is that the Tau sacrifice mobility to get the extra shot.
Again, this is to IG-ish for my liking.

No sense in getting all wound up about what may or may not come to pass.

I am optimistic that there will be balance in this codex.
We just have to wait until its released or leaked. simple as that...

IMHO raging and worrying about what may or may not break your army based off of internet speculation and rumors is much the same as those silly yahoos who seriously thought the world was going to end in 2012 over something someone told them was true (Egg and face was in LOS on that one)

We don't know whats going to happen...lets just geek out together and hope for the best.

and thank you Kingsley for that list of confirmations.

Is mobility for FW a big thing?

We know they are basically IG vets with a nice gun and worse combat skills. So would it help if they were played like they were marching up next to a vehicle and gaining cover saves like some Guard players? I used the tactic and it worked well to a point, but Guard have Leman Russ variants for every job and Vets can pack lots of special weapons.

I never noticed the Alien Guard similarities. Good call there. I fully expect squadrons of Hammerheads.

I guess I have been reading this thread, warseer, BOLS and like 4 others.

So it just seems people keep 'confirming' the exact same things over and over again

Not intending to offend! Apologies if I did. Must just be me

Puscifer wrote:
I fully expect squadrons of Hammerheads.

I really hope not...my wife will KILL me

Puscifer wrote:
Is mobility for FW a big thing?

We know they are basically IG vets with a nice gun and worse combat skills. So would it help if they were played like they were marching up next to a vehicle and gaining cover saves like some Guard players? I used the tactic and it worked well to a point, but Guard have Leman Russ variants for every job and Vets can pack lots of special weapons.

I never noticed the Alien Guard similarities. Good call there. I fully expect squadrons of Hammerheads.

It should be, because they don't have the numbers, melee skills or firepower to work otherwise. Tau need units that can move around the board and concentrate shooting to blast enemy units out of position.

Of course that tactical problem can be solved by giving them more numbers (cheaper troops) or melee skills or heavier guns but that turns the army into a different coloured copy of an army that already exists in the game.

Even with the nerf to vehicles somewhat (hull points) I imagine Firewarriors in Devilfish to still be a good alternative to foot slogging our fragile fellas across the board.

I'm not keen on meching up. It's a well known fact that I don't.

I'd rather have more troops than transports especially when the transport isn't very effective or cheaper in points.

 gr1m_dan wrote:
Even with the nerf to vehicles somewhat (hull points) I imagine Firewarriors in Devilfish to still be a good alternative to foot slogging our fragile fellas across the board.

Implying that Devilfish weren't already terrible.

Well we don't know the points cost for a DF at the moment. To be honest I have always kept my fire warriors on foot but it's normally the rest of my force that does the hard work. Though I am tempted to start playing more aggressively with them given the right support.

Puscifer wrote:
Is mobility for FW a big thing?

We know they are basically IG vets with a nice gun and worse combat skills. So would it help if they were played like they were marching up next to a vehicle and gaining cover saves like some Guard players? I used the tactic and it worked well to a point, but Guard have Leman Russ variants for every job and Vets can pack lots of special weapons.

I never noticed the Alien Guard similarities. Good call there. I fully expect squadrons of Hammerheads.

Yes, mobility for Fire Warriors is a very big thing. Tau don't have the numbers to set a cheap gun-line blob and fire until they get assaulted. The Tau fluff reflects this in stating that the Tau eschew attrition warfare and that they do not fight to hold positions but will withdraw rather than to be caught in hth. The Tau are supposed to represent Manouever Warfare. Admittedly, GW has done a poor job representing this on the game board, but there was hope that the Tau would get a version of the very Tau-ish combat tactics voluntary fallback rule. This static nonsense just doesn't fit.


BTW, just a nit pick, but Tau FWs are regular guard equivalent not vets. This is what annoys many Tau players. You have an entire caste of a race that focuses solely on ranged warfare, they start with BS3 and never get better. This is how the Tau ability/rank track goes::
Shas'la are BS3
Shas'ui are BS3 and get ld8
Shas'ui Battlesuit is still BS3 ldrshp 8
Shas'vre Battlesuits are BS3 ldshp 8 and get WS3???
Shas 'el Battlesuits finally get BS4 and ldshp 9
Shas'o battlesuits get BS5 and ldshp 10

Though rumours suggest that the last 2 may be changing in some way. Thing is that each of these ranks take about 4 years(equates to about 8 years for a human). There is just no measurable improvement in basic ability until you get to what would be considered notable heros. Compound this fact with Shas'ui battlesuit and up are wearing "Hi Tech" battlesuits with built in targeting systems and the Tau BS 3 just becomes a bad joke.
Don't get me wrong, I don't feel that BS FW's are bad. I think that they are right on the mark. The BS3 battlesuits on the other hand are highly counter-intuitive and just seem like a lazy choice that justifies upping unit size instead.

Now, I do not expect for the hammerheads to come in squadrons,...Would be nice to have teams of 2 but is the kind of goodness that GW reserves for Imperium factions.


edit to add:
'd
Or you can ignore my long winded post and just use what Killkrazy so eloquently and efficiently wrote.

 Krellnus wrote:

 gr1m_dan wrote:
Even with the nerf to vehicles somewhat (hull points) I imagine Firewarriors in Devilfish to still be a good alternative to foot slogging our fragile fellas across the board.

Implying that Devilfish weren't already terrible.

Flat out across the back line to keep the 2+ cover save does help in making them not so bad. Still, we have no idea what they do or come with or cost.

I can explain the fact Tau don't have "elite" units.

A Tau typically lives for forty to fifty Earth years. In that time they cannot become truly good at combat. They have no true war veterans like the other races.

Humans in the 41st live a lot longer than even today's standards. Marines can live for centuries even millennia.

To combat the lack of skill, Tau have amazing tech to help. Is this something that always works? No. Most battles the enemies of the Tau win are through attrition or from having better guys.

It says this in WD400 and I'm fairly sure that it will be in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aka what Kilkrazy said.

About hammerhead squadrons, in one of the battlereport pictures from WD I'd swear I saw a skyray and 2 hammerheads AND a squad of broadsides, making that 4 HS Foc's under the current codex. Cant find the picture now (its not in the first post), so I cant look at it again but it might indicate we are getting squadron hammerheads. It wouldnt really be that weird of an idea since that would be the only way to get us more str 10 AV power now that broadsides are no longer str 10.

We have TA to boost BS if you really need. It costs points but it's the tau using their tech once more to help them. It would skew the commander/shas vre suits too as they are the most experienced suit pilots

 gr1m_dan wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 gr1m_dan wrote:
Even with the nerf to vehicles somewhat (hull points) I imagine Firewarriors in Devilfish to still be a good alternative to foot slogging our fragile fellas across the board.

Implying that Devilfish weren't already terrible.

Flat out across the back line to keep the 2+ cover save does help in making them not so bad. Still, we have no idea what they do or come with or cost.

You don't win games by skulking around the base line.

But the real problem with the Devilfish was cost, not capability, and that hopefully will be addressed in the new book.

Puscifer wrote:
I can explain the fact Tau don't have "elite" units.

A Tau typically lives for forty to fifty Earth years. In that time they cannot become truly good at combat. They have no true war veterans like the other races.

Humans in the 41st live a lot longer than even today's standards. Marines can live for centuries even millennia.

To combat the lack of skill, Tau have amazing tech to help. Is this something that always works? No. Most battles the enemies of the Tau win are through attrition or from having better guys.

It says this in WD400 and I'm fairly sure that it will be in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aka what Kilkrazy said.

It may be GW's logic but game and in any realistic framework its totally silly.

A soldier that survives a deployment or 2 , or fights in a campaign and survives and accomplishes his duties and orders is a war veteran, and will get better, trust me I know this from RL, but again its GW and it has a different view on what it takes to be a "veteran" I guess.

And just a little factoid..once our military went to using combat optics for rifle quals, the shooting standard went crazy, and not that amazing of tech, just sights that are easy to see and zero.

and to hold up the fact that a Marine that can live several centuries will still miss his shots 2 out of 6 times, when a recruit/ganger/basic trooper only misses 3 out of 6 times (game stat wise) is just as silly.

Its just a game balance issue, that is attempted to be buoyed up by shaky logic at best, but no worries, I have dealt with tau stats for a long time, its no surprises.

 Archonate wrote:
You guys are assuming that FWs will still be allowed to take Pulse Carbines.
Amusing...

They aren't going to take away an option that is in the box set.

Do Tau still have the very poor depth perception that their tech helps compensate for?

I assume so, and that is a slightly better reason for the stats..BUT, a culture that emphasizes shooting and ranged combat, and have high tech solutions at their beck and call, would solve that right out of the barn. Otherwise I guess a Tau should have a BS of 0 maybe without the "amazing" tech

Its just game balance, se la vie.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 gr1m_dan wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 gr1m_dan wrote:
Even with the nerf to vehicles somewhat (hull points) I imagine Firewarriors in Devilfish to still be a good alternative to foot slogging our fragile fellas across the board.

Implying that Devilfish weren't already terrible.

Flat out across the back line to keep the 2+ cover save does help in making them not so bad. Still, we have no idea what they do or come with or cost.

You don't win games by skulking around the base line.

But the real problem with the Devilfish was cost, not capability, and that hopefully will be addressed in the new book.

I have won a few games skulking around an objective on the backfield. Granted I think Tau work best as an aggressive army using weight of firepower and manoeuvrability I have used the above to some success.

MoD_Legion wrote:
About hammerhead squadrons, in one of the battlereport pictures from WD I'd swear I saw a skyray and 2 hammerheads AND a squad of broadsides, making that 4 HS Foc's under the current codex..

There isn't. The WD army has two squads of broadsides (one monat, one team of two) and a hammerhead with Longstrike if I'm not mistaken.

Mr Morden wrote:Do Tau still have the very poor depth perception that their tech helps compensate for?

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: I assume so, and that is a slightly better reason for the stats..BUT, a culture that emphasizes shooting and ranged combat, and have high tech solutions at their beck and call, would solve that right out of the barn. Otherwise I guess a Tau should have a BS of 0 maybe without the "amazing" tech

Its just game balance, se la vie.

Also, Depth perception is the reason for the Tau's low I stat. This is one of the few things GW got dead right.

Why?

Because depth perception has pretty much zero impact on ranged(shooting) warfare. Many if not most riflemen shut their "off target" eye to help them to focus on their target . Now, at rifle ranges depth perception might make target priority a bit more difficult but that has been out of the game for 2 editions now. : thumbsup:

Also, just a factoid from the fluff, the Tau don't suffer from any real depth perception issue but more from a racial based form of astigmatism. Their eyes focus a tad bit more slowly, which makes them slower to respond to changes in distance. This translates into them being slow to adjust to things moving fast when up close, ....but at range, it would not be an issue.

Oooooh GW I love you sometimes. Well in the same sarcastic way I love stepping on chewing gum. lol

With the price of the pre-orders "Shadowsun Firestrike Cadre" and "Hive Fleet Eumenides."

I can imagine the GW pricing department saying, "Oh you spending $1000 on one order? NO SAVINGS! But you have free shipping!"

I don't know. I mean obviously they're going to balance this all somehow (I hope). The tau will find their way through this mess somehow. I won't pretend that the rumors that the railguns on the XV-88's losing power aren't a serious concern of mine. I hate relying on Hammerheads for main shots :/.

I dunno, I play in a MEQ heavy area, so it irritates me that a race that's literally not allowed to enter close combat without getting slaughtered sees equal shooting results on them as they do on us. WS3/S5 == WS4/S4 in the end, and the potential goes in the WS4's favor. Other races see WS3 on some shooting units, but aren't helpless in the face of a successful assault. (Given the much faster pace of 6th) with most assault races crossing the table in 2-3 turns, that doesn't leave you a lot of room to wiggle. 6 inches matters if they removed it from us.

6th ed also brought in overwatch which really does not help assault troops. Plus its still rubbish that High WS vs low WS has little effect - you still miss on on 1's and 2's.........

Your always going to have this problem with stats when using a D6 system, it simply just does not let you have much variation in stats. It's fine for a mass battle system like 40k as using D8, D10 and different stateline would take far to long.