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Miri wrote:

shade1313 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Here is going to be a fun question. The drone controller allows you to use the BS of the model with the drone controller. If that model has skyfire would they then be using his BS against the flyer as well?

My gut feeling is that they'll shoot with the BS of the controller, but as they lack the skyfire rule THEMSELVES, they'll be reduced to snap shooting...so will need 6s.

Don't you multi/divide then add/subtract then apply set modifiers? I will just chose to set BS to 1 for shooting at a hard to hit model, then apply the drone controller rule. Codex overrules BRB.

But they WILL be shooting with the BS of the drone control model. And, unless they are granted Skyfire, they'll be taking snap shots.

Miri wrote:

shade1313 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Here is going to be a fun question. The drone controller allows you to use the BS of the model with the drone controller. If that model has skyfire would they then be using his BS against the flyer as well?

My gut feeling is that they'll shoot with the BS of the controller, but as they lack the skyfire rule THEMSELVES, they'll be reduced to snap shooting...so will need 6s.

Don't you multi/divide then add/subtract then apply set modifiers? I will just chose to set BS to 1 for shooting at a hard to hit model, then apply the drone controller rule. Codex overrules BRB.

You got the order mixed up. It's like this:
-Drone shoots at flier
-drone use controller's bs of 5
-drone is then reduced to firing snapshots since it doesn't have the skyfire rule and the model is hard to hit
-drone needs 6's to hit.

I'm still wondering how Tau will deal with things like Psyrifleman spam.

You get a single Venerable Psyrifleman and less than 1.5 normal ones at the price of one Riptide, and the Dread(s) vs. the Riptide is going to be a pretty one-sided fight in favour of the big guy with W5 T6 SV2+ FNP + mobility. The way to deal with Psyriflemen/Hydras/other comparable anti AV11/12 batteries is to not use any vehicles yourself. You simply don't give the enemy any good targets already during the list building phase. You take some HQ suits, 3 Riptides, 3 squads of Missilesides and cram troops infantry in woods/other terrain terrain and behind your Aegis Defence Line with the Quad Gun. No vehicles necessary. Take a Hammerhead or two Devilfishes and a solo flyer in a list like that and your target saturation is so bad that you just gimped your own army. With vehicles/flyers you go big or you go home. All or nothing.

 Therion wrote:

I'm still wondering how Tau will deal with things like Psyrifleman spam.

You get a single Venerable Psyrifleman and less than 1.5 normal ones at the price of one Riptide, and the Dread(s) vs. the Riptide is going to be a pretty one-sided fight in favour of the big guy with W5 T6 SV2+ FNP + mobility. The way to deal with Psyriflemen/Hydras/other comparable anti AV11/12 batteries is to not use any vehicles yourself.

Well, I grant that's a good advice because Tau vehicles blow anyway in the new book.

However, what about Battlesuits? They get insta-gibbed by S8 spam. And it seems Shield Drones only get 4+ save now.

Besides, I doubt GK will have much problems dealing with Riptide. It's an army designed to fight Monstrous creatures.

Fight monstrous creatures IN close combat, where most of them excel.

A jump suit monstrous creature I have a feeling will have an easy time staying out of CC.

Also the tanks look pretty sweet and the points seem right when you consider the role they play in the tau book.

Devilfish mobile bunkers/objective grabbing assistance
Hammerhead:Slayer of whatever

Kroot may be worse overall, however they have an advantage the other drones dont. They can score. Two objectives in cover and the large unit of kroot are not going anywhere(especially if there is an ethereal near by)

 YotsubaSnake wrote:

Kroot snipers are pointless when they have half the effective range, less accuracy and die to pretty much anything looking at them. If the kroot could shoot something once, the drones can shoot them twice AND leave a markerlight for another unit to use. Also, you're looking at this from a very narrow angle in terms of capturing points. They can't capture points if they don't have any scoring units either. Protect your firewarriors, capture key points and keep them from capturing anything of value.

The effective range is mitigated by the outflanking, and the bonus to select outflanking board edge from pathfinders (including back table edge).
Less accurate, but can also take 5 small-large squads of expendible scoring units that outflank.

And the concept of protecting firewarriors is an absurd concept. Terrain is rather equal on both sides, so you have just as much ability to hide firewarriors as they do with their troops, so we are left with base comparisons. Firewarriors have a decent volume of shooting, but are not very survivable due to small number, T3, and L8 without HQ support. Just about every other troop is more survivable and the things that killed FW before will kill them just as much now. So I don't see why having kroot in reserves that can come in and deny an objective or even claim one would be a bad thing. Tau were losing in the objective game in 6th, and just because we can shoot some units off objectives doesn't mean our units will be fine on their objectives.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Miri wrote:

shade1313 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Here is going to be a fun question. The drone controller allows you to use the BS of the model with the drone controller. If that model has skyfire would they then be using his BS against the flyer as well?

My gut feeling is that they'll shoot with the BS of the controller, but as they lack the skyfire rule THEMSELVES, they'll be reduced to snap shooting...so will need 6s.

Don't you multi/divide then add/subtract then apply set modifiers? I will just chose to set BS to 1 for shooting at a hard to hit model, then apply the drone controller rule. Codex overrules BRB.

You got the order mixed up. It's like this:
-Drone shoots at flier
-drone use controller's bs of 5
-drone is then reduced to firing snapshots since it doesn't have the skyfire rule and the model is hard to hit
-drone needs 6's to hit.

I would say instead order of operations you're better off thinking of this as a global condition.

IF target = Flyer then Ballistic Skill = 1 unless Special Rules include " Skyfire"

I've noticed over the many years that players tend to apply results in the order in which they are most advantageous to them at the time. Anyway, enough of that as rule arguments can go into the den of ill repute.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

And the concept of protecting firewarriors is an absurd concept. Terrain is rather equal on both sides, so you have just as much ability to hide firewarriors as they do with their troops, so we are left with base comparisons. Firewarriors have a decent volume of shooting, but are not very survivable due to small number, T3, and L8 without HQ support. Just about every other troop is more survivable and the things that killed FW before will kill them just as much now. So I don't see why having kroot in reserves that can come in and deny an objective or even claim one would be a bad thing. Tau were losing in the objective game in 6th, and just because we can shoot some units off objectives doesn't mean our units will be fine on their objectives.

Kroot always had outflank, and they used to be better in combat, and in 5th could charge out from outflank. Yet it was not a tactic which was likely to have much chance of succeeding - I think it worked like once or twice.

Kroot are simply not survivable or killy enough to go claiming objectives by force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
Fight monstrous creatures IN close combat, where most of them excel.

A jump suit monstrous creature I have a feeling will have an easy time staying out of CC.

Grey Knights have also guns. Plenty of them. Plus they have jump troops of their own.

 Leth wrote:

Also the tanks look pretty sweet and the points seem right when you consider the role they play in the tau book.

Devilfish mobile bunkers/objective grabbing assistance
Hammerhead:Slayer of whatever

They're terrible, compared to what they were. Tau tanks need to move to survive and maximize use of their firepower. They can't do that anymore without ginormous amount of Markerlight support. If the Hammerhead didn't have only good anti-tank gun of the army, I guarantee it wouldn't see any play in current Codex.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 YotsubaSnake wrote:

Kroot snipers are pointless when they have half the effective range, less accuracy and die to pretty much anything looking at them. If the kroot could shoot something once, the drones can shoot them twice AND leave a markerlight for another unit to use. Also, you're looking at this from a very narrow angle in terms of capturing points. They can't capture points if they don't have any scoring units either. Protect your firewarriors, capture key points and keep them from capturing anything of value.

The effective range is mitigated by the outflanking, and the bonus to select outflanking board edge from pathfinders (including back table edge).
Less accurate, but can also take 5 small-large squads of expendible scoring units that outflank.

And the concept of protecting firewarriors is an absurd concept. Terrain is rather equal on both sides, so you have just as much ability to hide firewarriors as they do with their troops, so we are left with base comparisons. Firewarriors have a decent volume of shooting, but are not very survivable due to small number, T3, and L8 without HQ support. Just about every other troop is more survivable and the things that killed FW before will kill them just as much now. So I don't see why having kroot in reserves that can come in and deny an objective or even claim one would be a bad thing. Tau were losing in the objective game in 6th, and just because we can shoot some units off objectives doesn't mean our units will be fine on their objectives.

I think at this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I do not see the value in wasting my points in a unit that only scores and barely shoots in an army that's either long range shooting or high mobility shooting. Kroot do neither and will not be finding a spot in my lists anytime soon (even though I love how mine turned out when I finished them) and instead I'll place my value into units that mesh into my strategies better. If you can make kroot work, more power to you but I don't put much weight into what they bring to the table.

I can agree to that, but it is really trying to make the best of what's available. Kroot with snipers can get some damage in, but will still rely on other squads to clear a path for them for the most part. Really we have no good way of claiming objectives since our transport is too expensive to be really be considered and FW can't slog down field to get objectives. Kroot will die in droves any day of the week, but we don't have much options in the way of scoring units. The best denial units we have are suits, and that requires them being too close for comfort and of course drones can't contest.

I plan on bringing a couple units of Kroot and see what works. Maybe I can try and flood the sides with Kroot and hope that one unit survives to claim one or deny one objective.

Someone had posted an interesting idea regarding Kroot, could you set-up an Aegis Defense Line in front of some woods, and put the Kroot in the woods? I'm not sure if they then get stealth for being in woods, but can use the cover save of the ADL? I've found that Eldar pathfinders make quite a good objective-holding allied unit when in cover, and Kroot could be an even cheaper version of that with more bodies to keep that objective.

I can also see the value in 20 Kroot and 10 hounds outflanking to contest objectives. It's 30 wounds for 170 points. If they could get some sort of morale boost from an ethereal or something to prevent them from running it should be tough to take them out.

 Oaka wrote:
Someone had posted an interesting idea regarding Kroot, could you set-up an Aegis Defense Line in front of some woods, and put the Kroot in the woods? I'm not sure if they then get stealth for being in woods, but can use the cover save of the ADL? I've found that Eldar pathfinders make quite a good objective-holding allied unit when in cover, and Kroot could be an even cheaper version of that with more bodies to keep that objective.

Yeah, but it gets tougher when they don't have the proper cover. Eldar Pathfinders have built in cover, so they're just really difficult to root out of a 4+ cover save terrain because they have a 2+. The same is true for the Tau Stealthsuits, but those can't capture points. I guess I'm trying to compensate for the Tau inadquacies at objective based games by preventing my opponents from capturing any points.

So one thing that I kind of thought about lately. Anyone else bothered by just the match up for the White Dwarf Battle Report. It seems like Tau will be good at fighting off nids, which is one of the... less advantagous armies currently. Tau have always seemed to be decent at handling nids and all of the buffs make them better, while the nerfs bother them none. Nids don't care about S8 railguns, vehicles don't need to move against an army lacking shooting anti-tank weapons, and fliers can have a field day. I really can't stand the terrible match up, or about the cheating SoB army that gets free fortifications, or the DA battle report where they started off saying they weren't using point values but what was available.

I personally wanted to see IG, Necrons, or any of the other 6th ed books against Tau.

Anyone else bothered by just the match up for the White Dwarf Battle Report.

I'm pretty sure the decision to include Tyranids in the battle report is based on some background narrative. Necrons, Dark Eldar and Eldar are all exotic pirates of sorts and a rare encounter in the 40K galaxy in comparison to the Imperials/renegades and Orks/Nids.

I think my kroot are going to be counts as shoota boys or commandos and my Master Shaper a Warboss.

Backfire wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:


Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.

It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.

That's awesome. It like a better Deathmark rifle.

However, will anyone take them? Heavy Support still seems extremely crowded. You're going to need Broadsides, you're going to need Railheads (you may even need Sky Ray if you're really paranoid about air threat). What slot do they fill in?

Fact is that other units in other FOC slots can do same job Sniper Drones do. Broadside & Hammerhead, by contrast, seem as irreplaceable as ever, despite their nerfing.

I intend to run 27 if I can. : D

Hans_Einberg wrote:I am still having difficulty figuring out which flyer to go with....they offer interchangeability for the most part either by swiveling in to place or easy mod changes to be made... with the one exception that there are only 4 ion rifles in the kit, so its either for your quad gun or your interceptor drones....real tough call on that...

what say all of you? has anyone made their decision yet?

i suppose one could proxy a bomber as a fighter and vice versa but...it kinda takes the fun out of it

Magnets!
Alternatively, you could use Instant Mold and GS / Milliput to copy that one small bit (I've been told by GW staff small reproduction of small bits here and there for personal use is ok)

 Lobukia wrote:
I think my kroot are going to be counts as shoota boys or commandos and my Master Shaper a Warboss.

I'd go kommandos, that would be a great-looking allied detachment. Possibly include Snikrot and use a Knarloc Rider as a Warboss on bike? Plus, Kroot can look quite good with burnas:

Good call!

Did Devilfish lose the option to take SMS? (I noticed they removed the hammerhead sprue from the bits section of the GW website, so was wondering if this was tied to that.)

Nope its still there and its 10pts. GW just want you to buy the hammer head to get the sprue now.

 Ravenous D wrote:
its 10pts

Thank you.

I don't really see the point in Twin linked smart missiles now when drones have slightly shorter range (that can be increased) and have the same number of S5 ap5 shots, but with pinning.

I find it funny that on the old vehicles I would have paid 15 points for the disruption pod, while I don't think I'd pay 5 points for the current one.

I find it funny that on the old vehicles I would have paid 15 points for the disruption pod, while I don't think I'd pay 5 points for the current one.

Don't think 15 pts is worth the +1 cover save? Since you're a skimmer, you'll have a 4+ cover save all the time. I think it might be worth it.

 MajinMalak wrote:

I find it funny that on the old vehicles I would have paid 15 points for the disruption pod, while I don't think I'd pay 5 points for the current one.

Don't think 15 pts is worth the +1 cover save? Since you're a skimmer, you'll have a 4+ cover save all the time. I think it might be worth it.

And it stacks with Stealth/Shrouded (like from Night fighting). I think it's actually pretty good, only for Piranha it's probably too expensive. Old one was bit silly as it was so cheap it was autoinclude.

This is a response I posted on Kompletely Kroot, to the new Kroot rules.

"It's just a kick in the teeth for those of us that have collected all the Forgeworld models, and converted all the units in the old Kroot Mercenary list. It was presented as an infiltrating, assault army. Now that they have been repurposed as cheap snipers, with statlines similar to a Guardsmen, I can't use a majority of my models as actual Kroot anymore.

Their new rules simply give them the option of changing ammunition, so this requires no converting whatsoever. Even the Hunter Kindred were actually given 36" sniper rifles. Now you can build a box of Kroot and they can either be 6 point cannon fodder or 7 point snipers, using the same model. It is very disappointing to a modeler.

I am really hoping the new Ork codex will have Squiggoths in it, that would give me a counts-as army list that I can actually use. I have been having success with a non-vehicle Dark Eldar counts-as, and I really think a Kroot Carnivore should be just as good in combat as a Wych, so I will continue to use this list in the future.

The new Tau codex completely destroys the established fiction that the Tau needed alien auxiliaries for close quarter combat. Now, Kroot stay still and shoot just like the rest of the Tau army."

I was hoping for some Kroot-love in this new codex, but it didn't happen. I have converted and amassed quite a nice Kroot army over the last ten years, so I would like to hope that other players will allow me to use my Kroot as a counts-as army list that is actually good in close combat. This new Tau codex will slowly convince players that Kroot are crap in assault, but it never used to be that way.

 Therion wrote:
You take some HQ suits, 3 Riptides, 3 squads of Missilesides and cram troops infantry in woods/other terrain terrain and behind your Aegis Defence Line with the Quad Gun. No vehicles necessary. Take a Hammerhead or two Devilfishes and a solo flyer in a list like that and your target saturation is so bad that you just gimped your own army. With vehicles/flyers you go big or you go home. All or nothing.

I'm not so sure. Hammerheads and Riptides in practice saturate the same weapon types (high strength low AP), and Broadsides do as well, minor variations not withstanding (Hammerheads don't care about plasma guns, while the Riptide does (depending on upgrades) and Broadsides sure as hell do). The main exception is against haywire weapons, but in practice those have more or less gone away already in my area and I expect Tau will be the final nail in the coffin.

Is there any possible way a Riptide can even get cover from a valid ADL?

 Oaka wrote:
This is a response I posted on Kompletely Kroot, to the new Kroot rules.

"It's just a kick in the teeth for those of us that have collected all the Forgeworld models, and converted all the units in the old Kroot Mercenary list. It was presented as an infiltrating, assault army. Now that they have been repurposed as cheap snipers, with statlines similar to a Guardsmen, I can't use a majority of my models as actual Kroot anymore.

Their new rules simply give them the option of changing ammunition, so this requires no converting whatsoever. Even the Hunter Kindred were actually given 36" sniper rifles. Now you can build a box of Kroot and they can either be 6 point cannon fodder or 7 point snipers, using the same model. It is very disappointing to a modeler.

I am really hoping the new Ork codex will have Squiggoths in it, that would give me a counts-as army list that I can actually use. I have been having success with a non-vehicle Dark Eldar counts-as, and I really think a Kroot Carnivore should be just as good in combat as a Wych, so I will continue to use this list in the future.

The new Tau codex completely destroys the established fiction that the Tau needed alien auxiliaries for close quarter combat. Now, Kroot stay still and shoot just like the rest of the Tau army."

I was hoping for some Kroot-love in this new codex, but it didn't happen. I have converted and amassed quite a nice Kroot army over the last ten years, so I would like to hope that other players will allow me to use my Kroot as a counts-as army list that is actually good in close combat. This new Tau codex will slowly convince players that Kroot are crap in assault, but it never used to be that way.

Interesting, and a bit of a bummer, though I was never heavily invested in Kroot. Cheap snipers, while not bad, isn't what Kroot are there for... Well, at any rate, it would be easy to use them as an allied Ork or DE detachment.

[quote=Backfire 512548 5470317 null
Grey Knights have also guns. Plenty of them. Plus they have jump troops of their own.

They're terrible, compared to what they were. Tau tanks need to move to survive and maximize use of their firepower. They can't do that anymore without ginormous amount of Markerlight support. If the Hammerhead didn't have only good anti-tank gun of the army, I guarantee it wouldn't see any play in current Codex.

Got my Codex in hand if anyone has questions. Hooray for questionable morality on the part of my game store slipping it to me early.

Quick note for those discussing it in previous posts: The Supporting Fire rule does state that overwatch can still only be fired once per phase. So no multiple overwatches via supporting fire.

Also drones do count as members of squads if taken as upgrades and cannot leave coherency.