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Barrywise wrote:
I know Daemons are bad at keeping their attention on one thing at a time but this...I mean c'mon

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1140003&prodId=prod1140023a

Not even a Grimoire model for daemons yet but GK have one. LMAO

The games I have played with daemons have mostly been wins, 5/6, and one of those wins was against grey knights... This new codex is soooo much better if used correctly.

 Che-Vito wrote:

labmouse wrote:
How will this effect a 6 round tourney? It means your relying upon a little more luck than not. However look at the 'top armies' today.
- Necron Air Force
- Rapid assault (DE/Eldar beast packs, wraithwing, etc)
- Blob Guard/MEQ
- 'Nid psychic choir
- Helldrakes
- GK
hat is your real measuring stick for how they will do in the national event level.

I would find a lot of joy in going to a tourney, just to throw things off. Bring a hard counter to one or more of the above lists. In a national tourney, it's very likely that you'll encounter your target opponent. Sure, you'll get clobbered by TAC lists, but part of me would enjoy knocking a net-list out of the running.

9 Hydras for 675 points? Add in 8 Vendettas, a CCS, and two bare-bones Veteran squads, for just shy of 2,000 points.
If I had the money, I'd love being that person.

Funny thing... 9 Vendettas. 6 Melta Vet squads. Primaris Psyker. Deathstrike.

2k on the nose.

If you want even more stupid, take out a squadron of Vendettas and stick two more Deathstrikes in there. Roll them sixes... behind an ADL. Six Ven-vets, one with plasma, one with melta/plas, primaris psyker, and three Deathstrikes. I want to play this now.

jy2 wrote:Example of why daemons are competitive but that they will have a hard time winning a prolonged series of games (as in a GT). Keep in mind that this is just anecdotal.
...
While the Warpstorm table is not all that bad, just one bad roll on it can change the tide of the game. And not everyone wants to bring Fateweaver in their army. Had the roll been anything else, I think we would have won that battle handily.

I think you're right about the series of games issue. Chicago just had our annual series championship tournament, sixteen players qualified over a year of tournaments, four round event. There were two all-daemon armies, and two that used daemons as allies. The daemon armies finished 10 and 11th, with the daemon allies to CSM finishing 14th and 16th.

During the games that I happened to observe, the daemon players had at least one '2' result, two '3' results and a '4'. (probably more, but that's what I saw). They rolled a couple of '11's against opponents who had no psykers. And they had at least one matchup against Grey Knights which ended badly.

I don't think "competitive" means can you win a game with the army, I think it means can you win a tournament with the army. Over a 3-round tournament, you've got 18 rolls with a 1-in-6 chance to really mess up your army. Over a 4-round tournament, you're looking at 24. At the large 2-day tournaments, it's even more. Add in the potential for bad matchups, and I simply don't think the odds are in their favour for winning that many successive games. With the shift to win/loss rather than margin-of-victory, where one loss and you're out of the running, I just don't think they can string them together. And, if their best chance is to use the high-pressure all-attack list, how do they beat cron-air?

 Redbeard wrote:

jy2 wrote:Example of why daemons are competitive but that they will have a hard time winning a prolonged series of games (as in a GT). Keep in mind that this is just anecdotal.
...
While the Warpstorm table is not all that bad, just one bad roll on it can change the tide of the game. And not everyone wants to bring Fateweaver in their army. Had the roll been anything else, I think we would have won that battle handily.

I think you're right about the series of games issue. Chicago just had our annual series championship tournament, sixteen players qualified over a year of tournaments, four round event. There were two all-daemon armies, and two that used daemons as allies. The daemon armies finished 10 and 11th, with the daemon allies to CSM finishing 14th and 16th.

During the games that I happened to observe, the daemon players had at least one '2' result, two '3' results and a '4'. (probably more, but that's what I saw). They rolled a couple of '11's against opponents who had no psykers. And they had at least one matchup against Grey Knights which ended badly.

I don't think "competitive" means can you win a game with the army, I think it means can you win a tournament with the army. Over a 3-round tournament, you've got 18 rolls with a 1-in-6 chance to really mess up your army. Over a 4-round tournament, you're looking at 24. At the large 2-day tournaments, it's even more. Add in the potential for bad matchups, and I simply don't think the odds are in their favour for winning that many successive games. With the shift to win/loss rather than margin-of-victory, where one loss and you're out of the running, I just don't think they can string them together. And, if their best chance is to use the high-pressure all-attack list, how do they beat cron-air?

Played a match the other night and one bad warm storm roll all game cost me an entire plague bearer unit and a mounted herald. Rolled #4 and all of them had a 6+ invul save against an ork unit that was able to get the charge off on them. Painful to watch.

Silly question here and I cannot find if it has been spoken about in any other threads. About the warp storm table. Do you have to roll on it if you are taking Chaos Daemons as allies?

 BayneMor wrote:
Silly question here and I cannot find if it has been spoken about in any other threads. About the warp storm table. Do you have to roll on it if you are taking Chaos Daemons as allies?

No, only if Daemons are your Primary detachment.

@ Redbeard. Cron Air doesnt shoot that well. Daemons that go for mass assault are generally majority Cavalry which means they can easily cross the table to avoid being shot at much. Out of all the match-ups out there I really do not see a reason to be concerned about Cron Air. Plaguebearers can simply take their 2+ saves against the destructors and T3 doesn't much care about fancy Str.7.

I'd be much more worried about (in order): GK, Imp Guard with Wolves or vice versa and Tyranids. I think those 3 armies are going to be the biggest puzzles. I've seen the a good GK list take on an optimized Daemon build and it isn't pretty. Psybolt Ammo is brutal since it means that almost all shots hit and almost all shots wound. OUCH!

Nids are also really bad because they can bubblewrap their MCs and Termagants are simply more efficient than any of the Daemon troops (Counter-attack, probably poison/FC and they can shoot).

 Tomb King wrote:

Barrywise wrote:
I know Daemons are bad at keeping their attention on one thing at a time but this...I mean c'mon

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1140003&prodId=prod1140023a

Not even a Grimoire model for daemons yet but GK have one. LMAO

Used to be an anti Daemon weapon in the old GK codex.

Another win for the daemons today, made one opponent concede and beat the other one quite convincingly, quite a few bad rolls on the warpstorm table (minus 1 invu and DI for everyone) used fateweavers warlord trait to re roll and got -1 invul again, twice :(


With fateweavers warlord trait, I read it as I have to re roll both dice not just one? this correct?

His re roll ability is the nuts though

I thought it was just 1... And good to hear its going well for you...
P.s I named my dark apostle after you.... Mark the dark apostle...

I know he can re roll one dice per turn but the warlord trait says I can re roll results, so not 100% sure.

Have yet to lose with the daemons in about 8 games, all of which have been very one sided, 5 tablings as well, I think I will drop a DP and add in a soul grinder and more horrors to mix it up a little, I really didnt think they would do this well when I wrote the list as I have never used a army like this before, have yet to face eldar with runes though!

MarkyMark wrote:
I know he can re roll one dice per turn but the warlord trait says I can re roll results, so not 100% sure.

Have yet to lose with the daemons in about 8 games, all of which have been very one sided, 5 tablings as well, I think I will drop a DP and add in a soul grinder and more horrors to mix it up a little, I really didnt think they would do this well when I wrote the list as I have never used a army like this before, have yet to face eldar with runes though!

I fought Eldar twice last week and won by large margins both times, although each game I managed to get an 11 on the Warp Storm table (once naturally, and once with Fateweaver rerolling one of the dice). Got rid of Eldrad both times. When I rerolled, I used Fateweaver's 'reroll one D6 per turn' ability, not his Warlord Trait.

My whole army is psyhic though, I have 15 psyhic powers I think, horrors are only psyhic and the buffs from fateweaver are psyhic and the buffs to the DP's as well. If and when I face a farseer he is getting 3 DP's coming stright at that! ha

< Taken by the void dragon. >

With Fateweaver do you have to say I am using the re-roll before you roll, or am I misreading it? If that is the case than the re-roll is not as useful.

 CKO wrote:
With Fateweaver do you have to say I am using the re-roll before you roll, or am I misreading it? If that is the case than the re-roll is not as useful.

I think it is just declared after re-rolling. It would defeat the point of saying I am using the re-roll and then not need to re-roll a dice.


I have a question and perhaps it belongs in YMTC forum but figured I would throw it up. Does the Grimoire of True Names effect hq's that leave the unit was affecting? Example: At the time the Grimoire went off skulltaker was with the unit that was affected and then he leaves it. Who retains it?

Marky what are you running with fatey now

 Tomb King wrote:

 CKO wrote:
With Fateweaver do you have to say I am using the re-roll before you roll, or am I misreading it? If that is the case than the re-roll is not as useful.

I think it is just declared after re-rolling. It would defeat the point of saying I am using the re-roll and then not need to re-roll a dice.


I have a question and perhaps it belongs in YMTC forum but figured I would throw it up. Does the Grimoire of True Names effect hq's that leave the unit was affecting? Example: At the time the Grimoire went off skulltaker was with the unit that was affected and then he leaves it. Who retains it?

I don't have my books in front of me, but my first army was Eldar, and I vaguely remember if you cast Fortune or similar on a unit, you have to declare if you're casting it on the unit or any IC that might be attached to the unit. If you hit the unit, the IC doesn't get Fortune if he leaves the unit. If you hit the IC, Fortune goes with him.

As I said, I don't have my books, so that might not be correct.

fubukii wrote:
Marky what are you running with fatey now

1750 list

fateweaver
herald with exalted reward (grimourie) loci conjuration ML2

17 horrors
10 horrors
10 horrors

DP mark of tzeentch, wings armour 2 greater rewards 1 lesser ML2
DP mark of tzeentch, wings armour 2 greater rewards 1 lesser ML2
DP mark of tzeentch, wings armour 1 greater reward, 1 exlated (portalglyph) ML2

The portal glyph did naff all yesterday, dont think I got one model from it but the idea of free troops is good, as I dropped the Lord of change which had the exalted reward/portalglpyh I have had to give it to a DP at the cost of a greater and lesser reward, which is not ideal so I may drop the portalglpyh. The two ten man horror units are cannon fodder objective holders really, the 17 man squad with the herld does do well though, 4d6 of s6 prescienced shots plus 2d6 from the herald isnt bad, helped take down two helldrakes yesterday and two of the dark talons DA flyers. DP's fly into the enemy to smash face, I have lost two of them in one game, one in another and thats it, rest of the time they have survived

MY idea on the rewards is, the greaters are the nuts, luckly I havent rolled any 6's with them in the last few games (already bought armour) and the idea of the lesser rewards is to get one of the shooting attacks, so I can have some overwatch attacks and normal shooting attacks which biomancy only has two of the them

 undertow wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 CKO wrote:
With Fateweaver do you have to say I am using the re-roll before you roll, or am I misreading it? If that is the case than the re-roll is not as useful.

I think it is just declared after re-rolling. It would defeat the point of saying I am using the re-roll and then not need to re-roll a dice.


I have a question and perhaps it belongs in YMTC forum but figured I would throw it up. Does the Grimoire of True Names effect hq's that leave the unit was affecting? Example: At the time the Grimoire went off skulltaker was with the unit that was affected and then he leaves it. Who retains it?

I don't have my books in front of me, but my first army was Eldar, and I vaguely remember if you cast Fortune or similar on a unit, you have to declare if you're casting it on the unit or any IC that might be attached to the unit. If you hit the unit, the IC doesn't get Fortune if he leaves the unit. If you hit the IC, Fortune goes with him.

As I said, I don't have my books, so that might not be correct.

It actually notes a time when it wont count for a character. That is only when the character is in the unit he is trying to boost.

Read the IC rules in the USR section. If you use a lasting effect on a unit with a character attached, positive or negative, both the unit and the character retain the effect after splitting.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Read the IC rules in the USR section. If you use a lasting effect on a unit with a character attached, positive or negative, both the unit and the character retain the effect after splitting.

Ahh, I think I still have 5th Edition on the brain.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Read the IC rules in the USR section. If you use a lasting effect on a unit with a character attached, positive or negative, both the unit and the character retain the effect after splitting.

That makes the grimiore and forewarning that much better. I had skulltaker on a juggernaut get buffed by the grimiore and then charged him into skarbrand. Skulltakers eternal warrior combined with his ability to cause instant death is a pretty good combo if he can get a good invul on him. He instant killed a 225pt Named Greater Daemon of Khorne and really swung the battle in my favor. Essentially skulltaker is an IC killer of MEQ armor and above. Though I did have him instant gib typhus my last tournament but my opponent was unlucky rolling a 1 to save. Skulltaker on juggernaut is pretty solid on making my template for daemons. I have templates for various armies for when I start to build a tournament list with that army I insert the template and start from there.

My template for daemons so far is:
Fateweaver (Currently the only way to help with the armies inconsistency.)
Tzeentch Herald with Grimiore; and Loci
Slaanesh Herald with Etrernal Blade; and Loci (have not finalized mounted or not)
Skulltaker on juggernaut (Not finalized as I need a few more games with him. So far nothing but good from him.)
20 Pink horrors of Tzeentch

My avoid list:
Heralds besides tzeentch with psychic powers. They are only leadership 8 and can still be denied by most armies that we need them against.
All chariots ( They are armor 11 and open topped... need i say more?) Only one possibly decent is blood throne
Flamers of Tzeentch at 4 points cheaper then 3 of your average troops they just arent worth it any more. You can do better with cheaper scoring units.
Blood crushers (only T4 means half the known weapons out there can instant kill them and a terrible save of 5+ isnt worth it)
Beast of Nurgle (Still cant comprehend why these guys are as many points as they are... a Chaos spawn is base 30pts and comes with a better stat line)
Changeling... That is all!
Keeper of Secrets (Just too many options that are better in his slot really)

 Tomb King wrote:

Skulltaker on juggernaut (Not finalized as I need a few more games with him. So far nothing but good from him.)

If you're not taking Bloodcrushers, where are you putting Skulltaker? Are you just placing him in a big block of Bloodletters?

Whats your thoughts on daemon princes TK?

undertow wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Skulltaker on juggernaut (Not finalized as I need a few more games with him. So far nothing but good from him.)

If you're not taking Bloodcrushers, where are you putting Skulltaker? Are you just placing him in a big block of Bloodletters?

Every time I have run him it has been with a unit of 20 blood letters. They are mainly there as an escort. 18 blood letters = 4 blood crushers. Though I might try him on his own as bloodletters are your weakest troop choice. Even though each troop has a roll they are better at then the others.

Differences whether they be pro's or cons:
4 Bloodcrushers
Move 12" (Cavalry)
S5 T4
12 total wounds have to be inflicted or as little as 4 if S8 or higher
12 attacks base (16 on charge)

They have the same: WS, Init, Save, & Leadership

18 Blood Letters
Move only 6" (infantry)
S4 T3
A scoring unit
18 total wounds have to be inflicted
18 attacks base (36 on charge)


If you boost the entire unit with the Grimiore which I often do when running these guys it can make for a real beat stick. YMMV but I don't see the benefit over taking 4 blood crushers over 18 blood letters. Especially with the amount of armies packing S8+ weapons.

MarkyMark wrote:Whats your thoughts on daemon princes TK?

If you running a caster heavy army these guys can really be the jack of all trades. However, they are not as strong as their chaos spawn marine counterparts in combat. I have tried one and he did great but they can get tar-pitted real easily. If I run one I will most likely ally in my Black mace combo prince from CSM. Unless I want all the various powers the prince has at his disposal.

while it is a huge point sink I personally REALLY like slaanesh DP geared like this

DoS
flight
greater - lash of despair
exalted - eternal blade
mastery level 3

it comes with a risk, 320 points and you want to get iron arm to be immune to insta gib weps. but ML3 has yet to not provide iron arm for me. Lash is 2d6 str 6 shots at bs5 (without iron arm) or 2d6 str 7-9 (with iron arm)

Since it is 12" range you will usually be within charge range and doing 5 +1 (charging) + d3 (eternal blade) = 7-9 attacks. or if your lucky and got both iron arm and warp speed add another D3 attacks so 8-12 attacks on the charge. all at ridiculously high WS. all at +1 str on top of iron arm which will be 8-10 (who needs to smash!! lol), all at ridiculously high init. and thanks to slaanesh daemon all with rending

Add to all that the fact that you will likely have a shooty psykic ability to try and weaken the target further means this guy is a beast.

Again this all mainly depends on getting Iron Arm for EW. Which is not a given. w/o iron arm the prince is still VERY effective just has to be more aware of instant death weps.

 keltikhoa wrote:
while it is a huge point sink I personally REALLY like slaanesh DP geared like this

DoS
flight
greater - lash of despair
exalted - eternal blade
mastery level 3

it comes with a risk, 320 points and you want to get iron arm to be immune to insta gib weps. but ML3 has yet to not provide iron arm for me. Lash is 2d6 str 6 shots at bs5 (without iron arm) or 2d6 str 7-9 (with iron arm)

Since it is 12" range you will usually be within charge range and doing 5 +1 (charging) + d3 (eternal blade) = 7-9 attacks. or if your lucky and got both iron arm and warp speed add another D3 attacks so 8-12 attacks on the charge. all at ridiculously high WS. all at +1 str on top of iron arm which will be 8-10 (who needs to smash!! lol), all at ridiculously high init. and thanks to slaanesh daemon all with rending

Add to all that the fact that you will likely have a shooty psykic ability to try and weaken the target further means this guy is a beast.

Again this all mainly depends on getting Iron Arm for EW. Which is not a given. w/o iron arm the prince is still VERY effective just has to be more aware of instant death weps.

I used a setup like that on a prince, he ended up with iron arm, enfeeble and endurance.

He pretty much won the game for me on his own lol.

I've been having a blast with this list. It's not very forgiving and any bad plays will own you.

The idea is to get Forwarning with your 9 rolls and go to town.
2++ and Prescience is silly sausage land.
Gaze allows you to keep those fragile troops off the table for as long as possible.

HQ
Fateweaver 300

Herald of Tzeentch, Mastery lvl 3, Exalted Reward, Disc 150
Herald of Tzeentch, Mastery lvl 3, Disc 120
Herald of Tzeentch, Mastery lvl 2, Lesser Reward Disc 105

Troops
10 Plague Bearers 90
10 Plague Bearers 90

Fast
9 Screamers 225
8 Screamers 200
8 Screamers 200

Allies-Chaos
HQ
Daemon Prince Mark of Tzeentch, Power Armour, Wings, Black Mace, 265

Troops
10 Cultists 50
10 Cultists 50

1845