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I must have missed the point where you can join one of the factions...

Actually, I'm pretty sure you don't get to choose.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Funny thing, that was actually pointed out in the game itself. You have to flip a coin at some point for these two characters, and according to the readings that they have, tails never comes up. There's always one option.

I know. I'm guessing it was a broad symbol not related directly to what I just said, but it would make sense as a metaphor of Columbia. Bad breeds bad and, in the end, only bad remains.

But it's still crappy social commentary. I want to be engaged in discussion, not taught like a child.

Yeah, I think that is going to be a common misconception about this game as a result of its marketing.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
I must have missed the point where you can join one of the factions...

Actually, I'm pretty sure you don't get to choose.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Funny thing, that was actually pointed out in the game itself. You have to flip a coin at some point for these two characters, and according to the readings that they have, tails never comes up. There's always one option.

I know. I'm guessing it was a broad symbol not related directly to what I just said, but it would make sense as a metaphor of Columbia. Bad breeds bad and, in the end, only bad remains.

But it's still crappy social commentary. I want to be engaged in discussion, not taught like a child.

Huh, odd. After a bit of research it seems you don't get to join The Founders after all. I'm a dolt

I just assumed you could, after being given the choice to throw the ball at that couple (which admittably results in nothing, but still), and the from what I gathered from the marketing.

Well, I shut out all the PR drivel, so I wouldn't know.

Expect a very narrow story path with no branching whatsoever. For good or ill, the game follows it all the way to the end with no real input from the player.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
I want to be engaged in discussion, not taught like a child.

That's a very subjective distinction and, moreover, it sounds like you're accusing BioShock Infinite of propaganda. I'm not sure that in-game choice is the necessary requirement for engagement. Along these lines, I think you must have a very poor memory of the original BioShock. Or maybe the problem is, where did you get this set of expectations for BioShock Infinite?

 Manchu wrote:
That's a very subjective distinction and, moreover, it sounds like you're accusing BioShock Infinite of propaganda.

There can be no propaganda if the subject has one side only, right?

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not sure that in-game choice is the necessary requirement for engagement. Along these lines, I think you must have a very poor memory of the original BioShock. Or maybe the problem is, where did you get this set of expectations for BioShock Infinite?

Well, Bioshock managed to produce a decent take on meritocracy and it's potential pitfalls. But as I said, meritocracy is neutral. Racial supremacy is not. The story of Ryan and Rapture is one of good intentions gone bad. Columbia is a story of bigotry and injustice gone worse. That makes it way less compelling for me, because there is no other side of the coin, no "could have been otherwise" to hinge a thread of sympathy or understanding on.

I'll have to get back to you on that; my current (lack of) progress in the game disqualifies me from discussing it further.

But as to the matter of branching plots and player choice, BioShock cannot be the basis for such expectations.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
But as I said, meritocracy is neutral. Racial supremacy is not. The story of Ryan and Rapture is one of good intentions gone bad. Columbia is a story of bigotry and injustice gone worse. That makes it way less compelling for me, because there is no other side of the coin, no "could have been otherwise" to hinge a thread of sympathy or understanding on.

This is a compelling argument. As I've yet to finish this game, I can't yet weigh in on it, but at this point in I see what you're saying so far as Rapture vs Columbia.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hah, ninja'd, kind of.

Just speaking of BioShock, I'm not sure that Andrew Ryan's intentions are actually any better than Father Comstock's.

To some extent, both stories are asking why anyone would think of themselves as so much better than others that they would refuse to live with those others (a little potential/faux foreshadowing from Infinite has a couple talking about future cities on the moon). For Ryan, it's a matter of "talent" -- which to a great extent can be summed up as "ruthlessness." For Comstock, it seems to be a matter of race/nationality.

Is it me, or is Bioshock Infinite a lot like dishonored?

I mean,

-you play a guy who is on the run from a corrupt ogliarchy.

-He has to find a girl and take her to a safe place.

- There's some mystical stuff in the background

- The game uses a steam punk aesthetic

Meritocracy has never actually been implemented neutrally, so that's a bit of a pointless statement.

 Manchu wrote:
But as to the matter of branching plots and player choice, BioShock cannot be the basis for such expectations.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I was expecting a linear path and I got a linear path. That's absolutely not something I'd hold against the game.

 Manchu wrote:
Just speaking of BioShock, I'm not sure that Andrew Ryan's intentions are actually any better than Father Comstock's.

They're both megalomaniacs with a vision. It's just that the utopia of one of them comes from a reasonable, or at least debatable idea, the other doesn't.

Edit: damn spell check.

Edit2: I am apparently located in the US now. That's interesting...

 Melissia wrote:
Meritocracy has never actually been implemented neutrally

Yeah, I think this comes up in both games. In Infinite, Comstock sees merit in terms of one's white-Americaness. In BioShock, Ryan sees merit in terms of agreement with him (consider his hatred for Fontaine, who arguably simply out-Ryans Andrew Ryan). But both men see something more than passive merit -- there is an active element which they both think of as salvation. More particularly, they seem to see a perfection of merit in the freedom to be great. Rapture and Columbia are the conditions for this salvation because they both think "the world" holds merit back. And they're very different freedoms: freedom from and freedom to.

Rapture is about hiding from the world, holding out on the world, a Randian intellectual strike. "All good things of this earth flow into the city."

Columbia is the opposite: they're above it, the house on the hill, the model for some future civilization. "What is Columbia but another ark for another time?"

 Manchu wrote:
eah, I think this comes up in both games. In Infinite, Comstock sees merit in terms of one's white-Americaness. In BioShock, Ryan sees merit in terms of agreement with him (consider his hatred for Fontaine, who arguably simply out-Ryans Andrew Ryan

This is also a good point.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Meritocracy has never actually been implemented neutrally

Yeah, I think this comes up in both games. In Infinite, Comstock sees merit in terms of one's white-Americaness. In BioShock, Ryan sees merit in terms of agreement with him (consider his hatred for Fontaine, who arguably simply out-Ryans Andrew Ryan). But both men see something more than passive merit -- there is an active element which they both think of as salvation. More particularly, they seem to see a perfection of merit in the freedom to be great. Rapture and Columbia are the conditions for this salvation because they both think "the world" holds merit back. And they're very different freedoms: freedom from and freedom to.

Rapture is about hiding from the world, holding out on the world, a Randian intellectual strike. "All good things of this earth flow into the city."

Columbia is the opposite: they're above it, the house on the hill, the model for some future civilization. "What is Columbia but another ark for another time?"

Yep!

I also felt that way about Andrew Ryan and Fontaine myself, actually.

 Manchu wrote:
Seriously, you only like completely novel games? You must hate pretty much everything.

I think you misunderstood me. I never said that the game was bad or I didn't enjoy it. Where did you get hate? There is however a huge leap from top 5 game ever released and a good, even a very good game.

The game gets more and more colours as you interact with E. I don't know how she can walk around with somebody who has severe kleptomania and eats food from every garbage can

 His Master's Voice wrote:
the utopia of one of them comes from a reasonable, or at least debatable idea

I don't think Ryan's ideas are "debatable" in moral terms. I think it's a great cultural failing that Ryan's/Rand's ideas remain potentially acceptable these days. And I think it is a triumph that racism, or at least stark racism (we still have a long way to go), is thought off as unacceptable as a default.

 Macok wrote:
Where did you get hate?

My mistake, let me rephrase: you must be disappointed in everything.

 Macok wrote:
E. I don't know how she can walk around with somebody who has severe kleptomania and eats food from every garbage can

Well, that behavior makes sense in the context of a world where someone decides a good place to store a hot dog is in a file cabinet.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't think Ryan's ideas are "debatable" in moral terms. I think it's a great cultural failing that Ryan's/Rand's ideas remain potentially acceptable these days. And I think it is a triumph that racism, or at least stark racism (we still have a long way to go), is thought off as unacceptable as a default.

You have issues with meritocratic organisation of social life?

Let's be clear here, the idea that Ryan built from is not the reality of Rapture that Jack experienced. Let's not equate the concept with the weakness of the man that represents it.

Really wanting to get this game, just don't have the cash.

And this is going to sound crazy, but do they give the "bad guys" any real reason to sympathize with them? Even if it was just "do this horrible act and we'll let you leave unharmed, and you can forget this ever happened" level of simplicity. When a game just goes "LOOK AT THIS! LOOK AT HOW BAD THESE PEOPLE ARE!" it gets really boring.

You know, the whole "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and whatnot. If these guys are just lynching people for the hell of it though and waxing their handlebar mustaches while practicing their evil laugh I'll probably pass.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
You have issues with meritocratic organisation of social life?

I have issues with the idea that it's possible to be purely meritocratic at all.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
You have issues with meritocratic organisation of social life?

My issue is with Ryan's definition of merit. I have issues with social organization that rewards and perpetuates the kind of traits Mr. Ryan apparently found meritorious.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When a game just goes "LOOK AT THIS! LOOK AT HOW BAD THESE PEOPLE ARE!" it gets really boring.

 Melissia wrote:
I have issues with the idea that it's possible to be purely meritocratic at all.

Duh. No social concept survives contact with reality.

 Manchu wrote:
My issue is with Ryan's definition of merit. I have issues with social organization that rewards and perpetuates the kind of traits Mr. Ryan apparently found meritorious.

We're on common ground here.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
My issue is with Ryan's definition of merit. I have issues with social organization that rewards and perpetuates the kind of traits Mr. Ryan apparently found meritorious.

We're on common ground here.

And in a similar way, so are Mssrs. Ryan and Comstock. They both believe in meritocracy. The question is, what is the condition for merit? For Ryan, it is "genius." For Comstock, it is "Americaness." I think they're equally problematic, even conceptually interchangeable. The difference is circumstantial, a matter of time and place -- particular context. But abstractly, we're dealing with the same kind of ideology.

With just one twist: while Ryan wanted to deny others his genius and the genius of Rapture, Comstock seems to want to impose his Americaness on everyone.

 Manchu wrote:
The difference is circumstantial, a matter of time and place -- particular context.

This is the point where we disagree. Mental prowess versus the correct skin colour and nationality is not circumstantial. One has to be exercised and produce measurable results in order to be considered for inclusion in Rapture, the other is a passive trait in Infinite Columbia. One is an act of will, the other a matter of chromosomes.

 Manchu wrote:
With just one twist: while Ryan wanted to deny others his genius and the genius of Rapture, Comstock seems to want to impose his Americaness on everyone.

That's the twist of a knife in a wound. Rapture is an invite only club where people go because they want to. Columbia is the social equivalent of a virus that aims to infect everything.

I'll agree that past a certain point of abstraction, the ideologies meld into one. Every group works by means of exclusion and inclusion rules after all. But the rules matter.

Picked it up yesterday having preordered it, spent about 4 hours today trying to sort out the hullabaloo that was my preorder bonuses. (I didn't get sent a download code for any of them, and had to spend an hour on a web chat with Game's customer services before playing through Industrial Revolution).

I've only played for about half an hour and I've been taking it slow to take everything in and I have to say that the setting is amazing.(I'd especially recommend looking out for a barbershop quartet version of "God Only Knows" by the Beach Boys).
Only a tiny amount of gunplay so far, and the shotgun was very fun to use.
All in all I'm definitely looking forwards to playing through the rest of the game.

Also:

Attempting a meritocracy through "genius" only works when the definition of "genius" itself is not heavily biased by the meritocracy's philosophy.

Watch how Booker and Elisabeth interact as you play. There's a good chance you'll figure it out before it hits.

That's actually something I haven't mentioned, but that particular aspect visibly got a lot of attention from the writers.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Mental prowess versus the correct skin colour and nationality is not circumstantial.

There is room in Comstock's ideology for non-white people. He explicitly believes in the white man's burden, after all (per one of the audio diaries). How exactly non-whites will ascend is problematic. Same for Ryan: how exactly a street urchin becomes a captain of industry is not clear. They have ideological terms for these processes but in practice neither seems especially concerned with the terrible real consequences the processes entail.

I think this boils down to Comstock being more obviously wrong than Ryan. I'm saying, it's great that we can easily see that Comstock is obviously wrong. It's not so great that we can't as easily see that Ryan is obviously wrong, too.

I could see it, myself. Ryan imagined a world where only his version of "genius" mattered, except that just ignores the fact that Rapture's version of "genius" is useless without innumerable efforts of other people who either have no "genius" or have "genius" of an entirely different sort.