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Backfire wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I think Vespids somehow became worse.

eh...no.

I actually think they become relatively worse. One of their chief problems always was that their damage output for their points cost was so laughably low. Now, it's actually even worse than it was before. Of course, they did gain buffs - Hit & run, more weapon range (very important!), better armour. So absolutely they are somewhat better particularly when you figure out improved Markerlight coverage the army received (Vespid need Markerlights to boost their weak firepower), but the thing is that other stuff at Fast Attack become much better: Pathfinders, Drones (esp. Marker Drones). And then of course FA contains the flyers, if someone wants to use them. So I don't just see any role for them. Even regular Gun Drones are probably better.

They gained hit and run yet still are pretty bad in melee combat however, it's useful for getting them out of it, but at the same time how much damage can they do now.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They gained hit and run yet still are pretty bad in melee combat however, it's useful for getting them out of it, but at the same time how much damage can they do now.

That's a pretty minimal gain when a failed combat that you need to get out of is likely going to result in the squad being crippled, if not entirely destroyed.

If, between markerlights and Vespid guns, whatever unit the Vespid so much as sneezed at is still standing with more than a single model left, you're doing something terribly wrong.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Retributors, Exorcists, Immolators, plus everything in the Codex with strong anti-vehicle CC potential... what am I missing?

The part where I said non-melta. The Exorcist is the only SoB unit capable of dealing with tanks from outside melta range. That's laughably inadequate for an entire army's ranged anti-tank, and it's absurd to say that Tau ranged anti-tank is fine just because SoB only have one unit.

What about Retributors? Also, multi-meltas (from Immolators) are effective at 24".

 Kingsley wrote:
What about Retributors? Also, multi-meltas (from Immolators) are effective at 24".

You mean the same retributors whose only anti-tank weapon is a multimelta?

I guess Rending doesnt count as "anti tank" either?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I guess Rending doesnt count as "anti tank" either?

Not when it only matters on the multimeltas that are already anti-tank weapons. Rending HBs sound nice in theory until you realize that your chances of actually accomplishing anything with them are pretty minimal, and even when you do get a lucky pen they're still only AP 4. So you're still stuck with the Exorcist as your only ranged anti-tank.

 Peregrine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I guess Rending doesnt count as "anti tank" either?

Not when it only matters on the multimeltas that are already anti-tank weapons. Rending HBs sound nice in theory until you realize that your chances of actually accomplishing anything with them are pretty minimal, and even when you do get a lucky pen they're still only AP 4. So you're still stuck with the Exorcist as your only ranged anti-tank.

I'm pretty sure a rending HB is AP2.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I guess Rending doesnt count as "anti tank" either?

Not when it only matters on the multimeltas that are already anti-tank weapons. Rending HBs sound nice in theory until you realize that your chances of actually accomplishing anything with them are pretty minimal, and even when you do get a lucky pen they're still only AP 4. So you're still stuck with the Exorcist as your only ranged anti-tank.

I'm pretty sure a rending HB is AP2.

Armour penetration != to-wound

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I guess Rending doesnt count as "anti tank" either?

Not when it only matters on the multimeltas that are already anti-tank weapons. Rending HBs sound nice in theory until you realize that your chances of actually accomplishing anything with them are pretty minimal, and even when you do get a lucky pen they're still only AP 4. So you're still stuck with the Exorcist as your only ranged anti-tank.

I'm pretty sure a rending HB is AP2.

Armour penetration != to-wound

AP2 gives +1 on the damage chart against vehicles on a pen. PG427 and PG74 of the BRB.


So still nasty

 Peregrine wrote:
It has a chance to be AP 2 and a 1/6 chance to get a precise shot (1/36 if you need AP 2 to avoid bouncing off a good armor save), while the old rail rifles had a 100% chance to be AP 3 (almost always just as good as AP 2) and wounded most targets on a 2+ instead of a 4+. The new guns give up a lot of consistent firepower in exchange for the gimmick of sniping the occasional specific model. That is not even close to a fair trade, even without counting the greatly reduced durability or loss of split fire.

So we change a unit that had a great chance of killing MEQ. Which does not seem to be a weak point in the current codex. And we replace it with a unit that is better against TEQ and MCs. And we change the weapon from Heavy to Rapid Fire. It's a Sniper Rifle with 12" more range than all the Heavy Sniper Rifles, and 24" more inch range than the other Rapid Fire Sniper Rifle. At BS5. With JSJ. They're called "Sniper" drones and now they are the best Sniper unit in the game.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I guess Rending doesnt count as "anti tank" either?

Not when it only matters on the multimeltas that are already anti-tank weapons. Rending HBs sound nice in theory until you realize that your chances of actually accomplishing anything with them are pretty minimal, and even when you do get a lucky pen they're still only AP 4. So you're still stuck with the Exorcist as your only ranged anti-tank.

I'm pretty sure a rending HB is AP2.

Armour penetration != to-wound

AP2 gives +1 on the damage chart against vehicles on a pen. PG427 and PG74 of the BRB.


So still nasty

Except they are NOT AP2. They remain as the AP they started with, becuase you ONLY move to AP2 when rolling to-wound, not when rolling to armour penetrate. Hence why I pointed out that one isnt the other
You have made quite a common mistake, however

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I guess Rending doesnt count as "anti tank" either?

Not when it only matters on the multimeltas that are already anti-tank weapons. Rending HBs sound nice in theory until you realize that your chances of actually accomplishing anything with them are pretty minimal, and even when you do get a lucky pen they're still only AP 4. So you're still stuck with the Exorcist as your only ranged anti-tank.

I'm pretty sure a rending HB is AP2.

Armour penetration != to-wound

AP2 gives +1 on the damage chart against vehicles on a pen. PG427 and PG74 of the BRB.


So still nasty

Except they are NOT AP2. They remain as the AP they started with, becuase you ONLY move to AP2 when rolling to-wound, not when rolling to armour penetrate. Hence why I pointed out that one isnt the other
You have made quite a common mistake, however

Huh, yeah I had a look at the FAQ.

Odd, I thought it would have been AP2 either way

No worries, I thought the same thing about Rending, but yeah... stupid FAQ overrode that one.

Ok, I'm sorry, but much of this thread is just a load of whines. I'm going to give a few thoughts on some of the previous comments, then my own thoughts:-


Railhead nerf: So your s10 AP1 weapon can't move and fire anymore. Big woop. It's still a s10 AP1 weapon. How many other s10 AP1 weapons can move and fire to full effectiveness? It seems that this nerf was implemented to balance the hammerhead against other similar tanks, and in my opinion it's fair. Added in you can "upgrade" it with Longstrike just makes it even better.

My list is invalidated: Yes, it probably is. Im sorry, but that is usually what happens when a new codex comes out. Unit choices change, points costs change, and everything gets "freshened up". It rips my knitting that people complain that Tau waited so long for a new codex, and are now complaining they got it

So my thoughts. I'm super excited for this codex. It looks like its going to be a lot of fun to play, primarily because it looks like there is going to be many, many different viable lists. The customisation options for Tau units really means you can "create" a unit of crisis suits that can fill any role and position you need on the battlefield. Pick your favourite units, customise the suits to fill the gaps, and boom.. a force that should be fun and competitive.

The models of the range are stunning, so different from other GW models, meaning a fun and interesting time building and converting.

I was worried that the Riptide would be a gimmick unit, a £50 must-have to make the list function, but its really not. It is good, yes, but it is customisable to suit many different playstyles. You can even give it FNP or a whopping big cannon with blast that will melt TeQ to the tabletop.

Finally, I see this codex as being completely counter-Meta. Most competitive lists I see are either Flyer heavy, or ADL - flyer defence builds. Tau are a hard counter to both of these, with Broadsides giving powerful AA ability, and Markerlights making clearing enemy off an ADL easy. Anyone who wants to play competitive 40k take note, Tau will shift the Meta to something new and exciting. No 1 build will dominate now.

 Melissia wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
Wow you are so right. Strength 8 weapons are completely and totally useless in the game and I can't believe that any army should be forced to have to use them for anti-vehicle defense.

Hell, at least Tau HAVE an option for higher-strength weaponry than S8, unlike Sisters.

The sisters' only long range anti-vehicle capability is a missile launcher mounted on a rhino chassis. Otherwise they've got nothing to deal with heavier vehicles at long range. Makes those broadsides look even better and the tau anti-vehicle ability overall look wonderful by comparison.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backfire wrote:

But you're still not seeing the real problem. It has less to do with Broadside nerf (although it leaves me puzzled on the grounds that little to nothing seems to be in the book to make up for it). It has nothing to do with book being unplayable as a whole, I'm sure you can make powerful lists with it.

That list has same mobility, quite similar firepower, roughly similar durability, even some of the "unique" special rules are almost exactly the same! (coincidence that they were written by same person? I dunno...). And basic tactics you would use with it are likely quite similar. This is the problem - it's just nothing unique anymore.

Thought I was responding to Peregrine who's position wasn't uniqueness, but *weakness* so not bothering because of that perception. Sorry if I responded to the wrong person there Backfire.

As for uniqueness, the lists you compared will play similarly, but not exactly the same Tau are not marines and vice versa. How unique, really, is the concept of mechanized warfare? Troops in armored transports, some fast flankers and something that hits a little heavier to provide support for the advance will all be found in pretty much any mech list and can be built using any codex in the game. The devil is in the details, though. Mech IG will not play the same way as mech space marines. Mech IG might play more similarly to mech Tau, but even then there are enough differences in the way the units work that it would be similar, but hardly identical. IG could be a little more unique with their vendetta transporting, but some marine armies can also do the flying assault mech as well. I honestly far prefer more similar looking lists that operate to their force's particular strenghs than codecies that are just written to be radically diffrent so the basics of warfare don't apply and they have a ton of special fancy rules that make them the kings of what they do....

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
That remains to be seen. But "SoB suck too" still isn't a valid argument, it just means that there are several things wrong with the game right now. Whether or not SoB need more higher-strength weapons is completely independent of whether or not Tau need them.

Actually it is a pretty valid argument to show a force that actually does have an anemic long ranged anti-vehicle capability to counter complaints that the Tau are now useless and crippled because *ONE* of their S10 anti-vehicle units isn't S10 anymore. Which also means that there is *STILL* S10 anti-vehicle capability in the Tau army at range which to me makes it clear that there is nothing really wrong with tau abilities in this area.

You use the phrase "fair trade" a lot in your comments as if there is somehow a tit for tat approach to making the new codex that because it lost ability X, it must have something as good as ability Y to make up for it. Want to see a lot of lack of "fair trade" get a good look at the chaos daemons codex. Many units have been changed to be less capable/cool than they were in the previous version of the rules, especially after that broken White Dwarf supplement that lead to all the flamer and screamer spawn. Did the units that were pretty much cut apart with a scalpel get some cool other abilities in a fair trade? No they didn't they were just changed. So fairness doesn't enter into the equation it is about changing the books to fit a new power level paradigm that is forming. The tau will do just fine in that pradigm as long as you actually stop lamenting about the details you lost and start taking advantage of those that currently exist.

Skriker

Hetelic wrote:

Railhead nerf: So your s10 AP1 weapon can't move and fire anymore. Big woop. It's still a s10 AP1 weapon. How many other s10 AP1 weapons can move and fire to full effectiveness? It seems that this nerf was implemented to balance the hammerhead against other similar tanks, and in my opinion it's fair.

So, maybe Land Raiders will lose Power of the Machine Spirit, because it's just unfair that they can move & fire, even possibly two different targets? And maybe Eldar tanks should lose fast, because then all the tanks will be perfectly balanced?

Hetelic wrote:

My list is invalidated: Yes, it probably is. Im sorry, but that is usually what happens when a new codex comes out.

No it isn't. Just couple of months ago I went through another Codex change. What happened is that my existing army changed a bit, but mostly got better, with many new options and very few old options taken away, AND many other choices in the book, which I hadn't considered before because they were so terrible or boring, became interesting to me.

THAT's how you update a Codex.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skriker wrote:

As for uniqueness, the lists you compared will play similarly, but not exactly the same Tau are not marines and vice versa. How unique, really, is the concept of mechanized warfare? Troops in armored transports, some fast flankers and something that hits a little heavier to provide support for the advance will all be found in pretty much any mech list and can be built using any codex in the game. The devil is in the details, though. Mech IG will not play the same way as mech space marines. Mech IG might play more similarly to mech Tau, but even then there are enough differences in the way the units work that it would be similar, but hardly identical. IG could be a little more unique with their vendetta transporting, but some marine armies can also do the flying assault mech as well. I honestly far prefer more similar looking lists that operate to their force's particular strenghs than codecies that are just written to be radically diffrent so the basics of warfare don't apply and they have a ton of special fancy rules that make them the kings of what they do....

Uh, isn't this exactly what was done with new Tau book? I mean, sure there were special rules in the old book which "break" the way "basic" units are meant to operate, and some of those were taken away (which unfortunately happened to be nearly all the rules I liked in it), but a ton more was implemented?

12 Stingwings kill 6.7 MEQ with Markerlights. Cost: 216

12 Drones Kill 5.18 with Markerlight help. Cost: 168

That literally is a near identical kill ratio per point.

So killing the enemy doesn't really differentiate them at all. They are pretty much identca choices as MEQ killers.

So the difference seems to be in what ELSE they can do. Stingwings can do more. They dont care about Dangerous terrain, they hit and run without any need fo a commander, they are INIT SIX, and they are faster to bring guns to bear. they can even execute a Hammer of Wrath attack (not that anyone cares, but...they can).

I don't see that Gun drones are in fact better than Stingwings. unless the enemy is weaker than MEQ. I will concede that the Drones perform better against weaker targets, but they are worse against tougher ones. A tough 6 Monster will take 1.29 woundsish from Drones but 3.33 from Stingwings. So if the Gun drones are meant for the contingency that you will face a lesser unit, makes sense. But Stingwings are equal or better against the other types of foes.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
No worries, I thought the same thing about Rending, but yeah... stupid FAQ overrode that one.

Not even then. Reread Rending, and note it specifically tells you exactly when a shot is AP2 - when you roll to wound.
There is never a single mention of AP2 when you roll armour penetration. PEople just assumed this

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
No worries, I thought the same thing about Rending, but yeah... stupid FAQ overrode that one.

Not even then. Reread Rending, and note it specifically tells you exactly when a shot is AP2 - when you roll to wound.
There is never a single mention of AP2 when you roll armour penetration. PEople just assumed this

It's even on the FAQ

So, Im excited to buy a Fireblade(mostly for the cape) and im going to replace his stupid face with a normal helmet and his "hey you forgot this" arm with a wolfclaw...now thats a much more inspiring leader!

Yepper, I replaced his head with a Firewarrior head, and I made a second one out of IG sniper rifle cloak/arms, it looks pretty cool.

 Gyrtop wrote:
Yepper, I replaced his head with a Firewarrior head, and I made a second one out of IG sniper rifle cloak/arms, it looks pretty cool.

Any chance of a pic?

The second guy? Yeah it's pretty simple actually. Literally just the Sniper arms spliced onto FW head/torso/legs. And it looks damn amazing. As I can't actually find a camera right now, I'll upload later.


I have two helmeted fireblades, one on the normal body, and a CreedTau hybrid I made. Cut off Creed's head and put a FW helmet on. It actually looks pretty cool.