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Hi,

Just sort of wondering if after the legions got broken up, was there a chance that the imperium used gene-seed stores of the 2 missing legions to create successor chapters in later foundings for astartes chapters? or even if they have gene-seed stores of the 2 missing legions?

Blood Ravens maybe, they are fethed up enough to be from their stocks.

Wouldn't be suprised if any of the chapters from the cursed founding used their geneseed

Likely if they did exist they wouldn't have been told about it, and we probably wouldn't either.

Not sure but it would make for a great back story to your Chapter ....I say go with it. Isn't that what 40K is all about taking the unknown of it all and making it your own. I mean hey for all we know the GK are from that gene stock ..... *waits a minute for that to sink in*.... I know GK like to say their from the Big "E" but if nobody knows than what's to say it isn't... So I say take your idea and run with it ....makes it all the more interesting

They've given their absence from history a bit more context since, but that was the original reason for having the missing legions. By all means, use the blank slate to create a unique chapter, and if your fluff is good (e.g. not Stardust Empire spanking) it will be appreciated.

Well, if the rumours of those Legions being absorbed into the XIII are true, then wouldn't some chapters be descended from they anyway? If the Apothecaries never caught on to 2 strange types of Geneseed would carry on. Maybe some chapters got that. Like other chapters who don't know their Primogenitor.

I was sort of assuming Vierche not asking to build a chapter of them. I mean I added the Blood Ravens to the likely list just because they are so reviled and have gotten away with stealing so much, that I'm unsure why they ain't Excommunicate Tratoris.

I actually had a chance to ask both Jervis and Rick Priestley about this. The two "lost" chapters were intentionally left out of the lore so that you and I, the gamers, could create them and whatever backstory we wanted for them. According to Jervis (And this was years ago, mind you) they will never enter Canon lore other than to be mentioned that all Imperial records of them have been wiped out and nobody knows what happened to them or why.

This is also the reason there was originally 1000 Chapters of Space Marines, not derivations of a couple dozen gene-seed pools. And why there's millions of IG Regiments. They didn't want to stifle the player's creativity by insinuating that you had to adhere to X amount of official chapter rules and IG doctrines.

A lot has changed since then But to my knowledge, the 2 Lost Legions are still lost and will remain that way. Which is good for people who play the various FFG 40k RPG's. The possibilities are endless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Viersche wrote:
Hi,

Just sort of wondering if after the legions got broken up, was there a chance that the imperium used gene-seed stores of the 2 missing legions to create successor chapters in later foundings for astartes chapters? or even if they have gene-seed stores of the 2 missing legions?

For example, in our Dark Heresy/OnlyWar/Deathwatch/BlackCrusade/RogueTrader game, the Emperor had progeny. Progeny which GW expunged from the official canon record in (Inquisition Wars?). Both Legions know about them, one of them was tasked by the Emperor to protect them at all cost and the other, seeking favor from Horus was honor-bound to seek them all out and destroy them. Seeing as the Emperor having progeny at all is the utmost secret (and complete Heresy to even contemplate it...kind of like asserting Jesus had kids) the Emperor disavowed the Chaos Legion, and for necessity's purpose had to expunge the loyal Legion as well to keep the secret. For the loyalist legion is not only at odds with the chaos legion, but with the Inquisition as well. They can't rightly find a Star Child and build a fortress around him/her or it wouldn't be much of a secret, plus they have to act way outside of the Imperial Creed, Imperial Law etc. Perhaps even outside Imperial space beyond the Emperor's light.

The Chaos Legion needs to remain hidden because they harbor some secret plans for any Star Child they come across. Secret plans that don't involve any of the Chaos Gods, like perhaps elevating the Star Child to rival the Chaos Powers themselves. Who knows? Plus, if the loyal Legion found them, they'd root them out and hunt them down. vice-versa of course, because there's a huge rivalry. In our campaign, the Legion of the Damned is part of the Chaos Legion that broke off and is trying to atone for their sins, which is why they show up out of nowhere and almost nothing is known about them.

Anyway, that's how we do it. I think it's cool if someone has a great idea for Conversions and calling it one of the missing Legions.

In at least 3 or 4 of the Horus Heresy books it is strongly implied that the missing primarchs were were sanctioned (killed) and that the legions were culled. In one case, in a conversation between Dorn and the Sigillite it is hinted that some surviving marines from these legions were integrated into the ultramarines.

Aye, though when Russ spoke about killing another legion it seems he was referring to fighting the world eaters as mentioned in Betrayer.

I have been trying to write my chapter's back story so that they are a descendent of one of the lost legions for a while now. I have read every post it seems talking about the theories of the lost legions, and here is what I have come up with for my chapter.

I am using the story of the two lost legions from Rome, where one general betrayed the other in a large scale rebellion. I am thinking that the chaos inspired general who is the betrayer, grew up with xenos and had been running a campaign against the emperor in secret(this is possible because the chaos primarch is on the level of Magnus in psychic power). The other primarch was created by the emperor to one day lead the Adeptus Mechanicus, because he never trusted Mars religious zealots. Basically the emperor wanted the chaos primarch to act as the ultimate navigator of the warp ( being the one besides Horus who discovered so many of the other primarchs), while the other primarch would create the ships, and weapons to not only kill chaos demons, but the Mechanicus when the time came. The chaos primarch wanted to reveal this to the Imperium and in the process invaded the other primarch's home world. That is why Russ was sent to purge the chaos legion, and the other legion was forgetten, because if the truth was released the Mechanicus would have turned on the emperor.

I am also using the emperors Tarot to help fill in the pieces on the lost legions. I had the link but lot it when I updated my computer. I think it's medusa.com or something like that. I am also using the official primarch discovery list by GW, thinking that the chaos primarch was found third, and the good/Mechanicus primarch was found before Corax.

But that is all I have, I keep running into problems like how/when they were founded, and where they are located in the universe( territory). Any criticism welcomed.

Well, the Thirteenth Founding looks like a good candidate to me. It's explicitly unknown how many chapters were founded or what the parentage of them was. So you could say (for purposes of your chapter canon) that that info was destroyed to hide the fact that some of the chapters were started from recently rediscovered samples of the lost loyalist Legion. Fleet-based or somewhere way out in the boonies seems like a good location for such a chapter.

Werent those 2 legions annihalated before the heresy? If there are no marines then no second founding. I highly doubt there are any succesors from those legions...

Also, on the blood ravens,... i think they are just one of the many successors of the blood angels,.. but since a lot of records are lost they cannot find out who their primarch was anymore,.... though that seems weird in a way... Those guys were everything to the legions...

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Werent those 2 legions annihalated before the heresy? If there are no marines then no second founding. I highly doubt there are any succesors from those legions...

Also, on the blood ravens,... i think they are just one of the many successors of the blood angels,.. but since a lot of records are lost they cannot find out who their primarch was anymore,.... though that seems weird in a way... Those guys were everything to the legions...

You can't just claim they are from one Legion and not another without evidence to support your arguement. I could just as easily say they are actually loyalist Black Legionaires mixed with Night Lords.

They are considered possible BA due to colours, naming and icon, and strong psykers. Countered by lack of Red Thirst/Black Rage
They are also thought to be Raven Guard due to name and icon.
IF due to keeping an old IF relic but is countered by Dorn's distain of psykers so its unlikely there were many IF psykers to pass that trait.
And TS due to several different reasons based on a combination of preheresy TS colours, high level of psykers and quotes from Ahriman and preheresy TS.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Werent those 2 legions annihalated before the heresy? If there are no marines then no second founding. I highly doubt there are any succesors from those legions...

Correction: if there's no surviving geneseed samples, there's no subsequent foundings. Obviously there was no second founding as that was subdividing the existing legions, but if a store of their geneseed were rediscovered in some vault (but what are the odds of the Imperium packratting something and forgetting about it?) they could be subsequently reintroduced.

Also, on the blood ravens,... i think they are just one of the many successors of the blood angels,.. but since a lot of records are lost they cannot find out who their primarch was anymore,.... though that seems weird in a way... Those guys were everything to the legions...

Right, because no other group of warriors that descend from the skies and slaughter their enemies would think to use avian or blood imagery.

Is it not possible that a lost second founding chapter could have been made up of one of the lost legions survivors/geneseed? I only say that if it is believed these survivors were integrated into the ultramarines prior to the heresy. Another part of the fluff I like to use in my chapter's backstory, but not crucial. I don't want my chapter to be the greatest, never lost a battle, warriors that's why they were purged, kind of thing. Grimdark, but not ridiculous.

The Second Founding did not create more Space Marines, excepting (interestingly enough) the Wolf Brothers as the Successor Chapter of the Space Wolves. All of the other Second Founding Chapters were formed of Marines from a pre-existing Legion, who were then given a new name and heraldry.

It is debated that the Grey Knights may have been a new Chapter created entirely at the outset of the Second Founding, but this is unconfirmed.

The Wolf Brothers, though... well, they didn't have a great go of it, and no future SW Successors have been attempted.

Fluff-wise, the Space Wolves are the Specialist of Special Snowflakes. Of course, you can ignore this aspect of the fluff and go crazy with a 17th Founding SW Successor... but expect people to look at you funny (funnier).

Given how secretive the process of integrating the lost legionnaires into the Ultras was, I'd imagine they'd not want to let them reorganize as a unit without oversight. That said, it might not have been widely known among the Ultras which new recruits were actually members of the lost legions. It's possible that those who knew about it were dead by the end of the Heresy. Guilliman almost certainly would have known, but maybe he was distracted. Or maybe, being the unreasonably optimistic Marty Stu that he is, he wanted them to have another chance at their own destiny and approved it over the objections of others.

The advantage of doing them as a second-founding Ultramarines successor is that that way you have continuity of knowledge. Some of the veterans would have witnessed the events that led to the disbanding, and could pass down their history to new battle-brothers. It's unlikely any would still be alive (I believe Bjorn is the only known living veteran of the Heresy) but not impossible if you wanted to go that route.

Wow such hostility.... I said I THINK,.. especially to avoid this crap >.>

Just my opinion... It just makes the most sense to me...

I highly doubt they are successors from a legion (Thousand sons) that have been branded traitors and were killed to about a thousand or so leftovers that eventualy went to the World of Sorceres with Magnus... I also highly doubt that they would found chapters out of 2 annihalated legion... They were exterminated for a good reason i assume.... Horribly gene seed fault or betrayal.... Those are the first reasons that come to mind...

cause.... the Imperium isnt realy forgiving on anything... If the Emperor orders your legions death,.. would you realy think they would be like.... ah well... lets just use this gene seed from those bastards to make new chapters.... cause,... gak the Emperor and his wishes/orders and such....


Raven guard might be an option yes... Though,.. arent raven guard kinda mega fast attack orientated? And not a lot of Psykers? Or am i thinking about an other chapter?

Perhaps if one of the legions primarch was the only problem, and not the legion/gene-seed would the emperor still have purged the entire legion? Sounds wasteful.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Wouldn't be suprised if any of the chapters from the cursed founding used their geneseed

Wasn't the cursed founding so... uh... cursed.... because the Mechanicus attempted to "perfect" the gene-seed? Messed with it too much and ended up with cursed chapters.

If there was a successor chapter to one of the lost legions would tell anyone in the modern 40k universe? I think they would be as secretive, if not more so than the Dark Angels. Fear of being called traitors and wiped out by the Imperium.

Rumor has it that the Ultramarines absorbed whatever astartes survived the purging, swelling their numbers to well over 200,000.

Psienesis wrote:The Second Founding did not create more Space Marines, excepting (interestingly enough) the Wolf Brothers as the Successor Chapter of the Space Wolves.

The Wolf Brothers were not newly created. They were the Space Wolves complying with the new chapter requirement as little as possible, by only splitting into two forces instead of more like many other legions. It was when the Wolf Brothers started to amass casualties and started recruiting from worlds other than Fenris that the problems started. Eventually, the original legionaries from Fenris died out.

amudkipz wrote:Rumor has it that the Ultramarines absorbed whatever astartes survived the purging, swelling their numbers to well over 200,000.

And that's all it is. A rumor. Said during idle conversation between a pair of Word Bearers who didn't know any better.

Musselman wrote:
Perhaps if one of the legions primarch was the only problem, and not the legion/gene-seed would the emperor still have purged the entire legion? Sounds wasteful.

The Imperium IS wasteful... Just look at the Imperial Guard... We need that objective! Recruit more recruits from nearby worlds and throw em into the meatgrinder! I dont care how many men it takes,.. we need it! 5000000000000000000000 lives later.... YES! We are 5 meters closer! FFFFF yesh!!!! Just one of the things they are wasteful at....

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

Musselman wrote:
Perhaps if one of the legions primarch was the only problem, and not the legion/gene-seed would the emperor still have purged the entire legion? Sounds wasteful.

The Imperium IS wasteful... Just look at the Imperial Guard... We need that objective! Recruit more recruits from nearby worlds and throw em into the meatgrinder! I dont care how many men it takes,.. we need it! 5000000000000000000000 lives later.... YES! We are 5 meters closer! FFFFF yesh!!!! Just one of the things they are wasteful at....

They are wasteful of the 1 resources they have so much of they can afford to be wasteful...
Seems reasonable if you ask me...

Wow I keep forgetting that 40k is grimdark. They also sacrifice thousands to emperor everyday, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Put it this way.
At the end of the day the only person in the Imperium that isn't expendable is the Emperor.

 Deadshot wrote:
Well, if the rumours of those Legions being absorbed into the XIII are true, then wouldn't some chapters be descended from they anyway? If the Apothecaries never caught on to 2 strange types of Geneseed would carry on. Maybe some chapters got that. Like other chapters who don't know their Primogenitor.

They are not true. The Horus Heresy comes out and says repeatedly that the lost legions did NOT merge with the Ultramarines. The Word Bearer who says that had no idea what he was talking about and the guy he was with even told him that he had no idea what he was talking about so he should stop saying things like that