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 djones520 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

Some Canadian politicians say the situation is different now because Iraq war deserters like Rivera enlisted in the U.S. military voluntarily.

Their consent was obtained through deception and is thus invalid. The U.S. government deliberately lied about Iraqi actions prior to the invasion in order to justify an aggressive war, claiming that Iraq was refusing to cooperate with UN weapons inspectors when they knew in fact that Iraq was actually being proactively helpful. A person is right to refuse to be a part of that crime against peace, just as they are right to refuse any other illegal order.

Hey bud. Blow it out your ass.

Everyone of us made the decision with our eye's wide open. Don't sit there and call us all blind sheeple.

I didn't call you blind sheeple. I called you the victim of a fraud, perpetrated by your commander-in-chief.

 LuciusAR wrote:
This woman has said nothing about the 'illegality' of the Iraq war in attempt to justify her actions and given that she had already served a tour back in 2006 and joined up long after the invasion occurred, I think it's fair to say that it had nothing to do with her decision.

She said "she became disillusioned with the U.S. mission in Iraq." You remember that mission, don't you? To bring Saddam Hussein to task for his non-existent non-compliance with UN weapons inspectors over non-existent weapons of mass destruction?

Wikipaedia already lists her as a Prisoner of Conscience, based on comments to this effect by Amnesty International

They missed the words ..lack of..

 AlexHolker wrote:

Some Canadian politicians say the situation is different now because Iraq war deserters like Rivera enlisted in the U.S. military voluntarily.

Their consent was obtained through deception and is thus invalid. The U.S. government deliberately lied about Iraqi actions prior to the invasion in order to justify an aggressive war, claiming that Iraq was refusing to cooperate with UN weapons inspectors when they knew in fact that Iraq was actually being proactively helpful. A person is right to refuse to be a part of that crime against peace, just as they are right to refuse any other illegal order.

that has to be the stupidist thing I have heard all day... maybe you need to stop listening to alex jones so much, and realise that no soldier gets to choose where the country fights, they simply enlist or do not, no one forced this lady to enlist.

besides that is what conciencious objector status is for, which she did not apply for (and yes, every real grunt knows about it)

 Orlanth wrote:
Wikipaedia already lists her as a Prisoner of Conscience, based on comments to this effect by Amnesty International

I think Wikipedia also lists Stephen Colbert as the King of Idaho.

Already hear enough about women who leave their military husbands being evil bitches, it's sad that there's so little sympathy when the situation is changed.

Certainly, I feel sympathy for her; you gotta live with your decisions, whether they're good or bad (and in this case, deserting was a bad idea by anyone's standards, even if working through the legal system would be a pain in the ass), but her husband needs an ass-kicking though from the sound of things.

AlexHolker wrote:

Some Canadian politicians say the situation is different now because Iraq war deserters like Rivera enlisted in the U.S. military voluntarily.

Their consent was obtained through deception and is thus invalid. The U.S. government deliberately lied about Iraqi actions prior to the invasion in order to justify an aggressive war, claiming that Iraq was refusing to cooperate with UN weapons inspectors when they knew in fact that Iraq was actually being proactively helpful. A person is right to refuse to be a part of that crime against peace, just as they are right to refuse any other illegal order.

That's not even remotely close to how enlistment works. You join the army to be part of the army; you get no say in where you're sent or which orders you follow.

[delete: wrong thread]

Their consent was obtained through deception and is thus invalid. The U.S. government deliberately lied about Iraqi actions prior to the invasion in order to justify an aggressive war, claiming that Iraq was refusing to cooperate with UN weapons inspectors when they knew in fact that Iraq was actually being proactively helpful. A person is right to refuse to be a part of that crime against peace, just as they are right to refuse any other illegal order.

There's never a dumb thing said....never....but this comes damn close.....

And yes I was extended one extra year...which back then I was madderr then Hell...but getting nail with Hodgkin...I'm glad I'm still in. Support and camaderie helping me along. Kronk I give kudo's to. Frazz to.....BaronVeigh....now If I can still retire in Jul....which I doubt...probaly throw a six month extension in. I have to leave the military 100% condition.....meds are gooooodddddddddd

Y'know, Im going to play devils advocate here. So bare with me, My grandpa and my uncle where in the military, I respect the military in concept and in what they do, I even have my grandpas WWII-korean veteran hat with and army paratroopers pin on it from when i helped a veteran tell his story to my class.
But recruiting tactics by the military can be sometimes heinous and outright untruthful. I have had friends go into the military, have the recruiters tell them they will support their family and stuff like that, but when they get back and have trouble, the army just forgets about them and their family. The recruiters have told them they will never see combat, that they will be safe, but that is a lie, so my friends come back messed up and with nothing but a HS education because the army promised to take care of them. The Paratrooper? He told me a story about the gulf war and why he left the army after it, His best friend died on an illegal mission where thy where burning down cocaine fields because they where a rival to the CIA's own cocaine trafficking to fund an illegal war.
Like i said, I respect the Military, But when you sign up, they rarely give you the truth.

Y'know, Im going to play devils advocate here. So bare with me, My grandpa and my uncle where in the military, I respect the military in concept and in what they do, I even have my grandpas WWII-korean veteran hat with and army paratroopers pin on it from when i helped a veteran tell his story to my class.

You need more intell to even try this. I'm an NCO with 22 yrs in....your going to read why you need more intell.

But recruiting tactics by the military can be sometimes heinous and outright untruthful.

Your friends were caught up in the war stories of the recruiters. Other then that....better clarify some actions of the recruiters.

I have had friends go into the military, have the recruiters tell them they will support their family and stuff like that, but when they get back and have trouble, the army just forgets about them and their family.

Clarify this. As far as I'm reading this it seems that the recruiter was suppose to support their family while away? You friend immediate family? Friend wife and kid(s)? What kind of trouble? We talking active duty or NG/reserve units?

The recruiters have told them they will never see combat, that they will be safe, but that is a lie, so my friends come back messed up and with nothing but a HS education because the army promised to take care of them.

WHat was their MOS? Seriously...two combat theaters going on. I'm sure the recruiter probaly said depending on the MOS they chose they might not see combat. Also I'm guessing your friend turn down the 9/11 GI Bill off the bat? My perception of your friend so far now is a liability. I'm also guessing he is out since this sounds past tense?

The Paratrooper? He told me a story about the gulf war and why he left the army after it, His best friend died on an illegal mission where thy where burning down cocaine fields because they where a rival to the CIA's own cocaine trafficking to fund an illegal war.

Straight out BS. Gulf War. Cocaine Field. I leave it at that

Like i said, I respect the Military, But when you sign up, they rarely give you the truth.

Individuals choose their length of service and their MOS's at EPP's. The recruiters do not do that for them. All they do is make sure the individual paperwork is correct and have the correct waivers to get an individual in

No disrespect houtsauceman, but it sounds like you've been fed some pretty tall tales by your friends. First, they don't send grunt paratroopers to do that kind of stuff (if it even happened). The reason a lot of recruiters get accused of lying is because it's their job to sell the military. They emphasize the good while downplaying the bad. People build an expectation of what the military will be, which is inevitably shattered when they realize that the military is much like any other large organization.

The guys will a HS education should take advantage of their educational benefits. If he was active duty, he has the Montgomery GI Bill which will pay for college classes for him. That program has existed since WW2 so if he's stuck with a HS degree it's because he either abused his benefits and they were cut, or he hasn't taken advantage of them.

In my experience (12 years in the military, 4 deployments), I've run into tons of people who spout that stuff. I usually find that they were poor soldiers to begin with and they shift blame to their commander/recruiter/the military/space aliens in order to absolve themselves of any part in their own failures.

I don't know these guys, so you could very well know a disproportionate number of the guys who the military really did fail - I won't be the judge of that. However, a lot of grunts have the propensity for telling tall tales to civies. Hell, I've told a few in my day.


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damn, ninja'd by jihadin

Erie part of this....similiar thinking here

Im not familiar with many of the terms you use, Like i said, I just have friends that where lied to by recruiters to get them to sign, had kids with wives and they come back screwed up with no help for their families.
And I was mistaken, It wasnt the Gulf War. It was awhile ago he told me this story. It was the Panama conflict that took place he told if i remember correctly.
And it wasnt Paratrooper my bad, IT was army Airborne. this pin is likee the one i have

Im not familiar with many of the terms you use, Like i said, I just have friends that where lied to by recruiters to get them to sign, had kids with wives and they come back screwed up with no help for their families.

Hotsauce I'm not trying to crucify you. Has your friend deployed?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
82nd Airborne Division patch

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
No disrespect houtsauceman,

None taken, What is the point of being offended in a civil conversation. All I know is that my friends (Actually, it is more family of friends) have had bad experiance in the military.
I dont hate the military, Heck, I hate it when the recruiters get harrassed at my campus. But I do not support how they treat veterans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:

Im not familiar with many of the terms you use, Like i said, I just have friends that where lied to by recruiters to get them to sign, had kids with wives and they come back screwed up with no help for their families.

Hotsauce I'm not trying to crucify you. Has your friend deployed?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
82nd Airborne Division patch

Awhile back yeah, He has since moved to a different state, so i dont know what happened to him, but i know for awhile he went through hell to get benefits.

well, sounds like the 82nd you're talking about is older and was in during the 70s or 80s. I can understand that. The military was just transitioning from a draft army coming out of vietnam into the professional force we have today. A vietnam vet or similar might have every reason to hate the army - a lot of those guys got screwed.

It's a very different army today. So different, in fact, that it's kind of like comparing apples and oranges.

oh, the 82nd is a different guy. He was able to do good with his life.
This guy im talking about is a family friend, well old, like i said, i do not know what happened to him.

Whats his current age? He might have had a rough time in the 82nd. I spent most my time in the 82nd....like 10 yrs worth. Just so I can hazard a guess. If he did Panama though then he was dealing with what Scruff had said. the Transition of a draft army to a volunteer army

Well, the 82nd was speaking at my school. He was already old enough to have a kid in HS, maybe college. He didnt decry the army to the audience, just to me and the guy running the thing, Heck he said how the army changed him, but h left because of the things he saw.

After reading a bit more of the Female deserters story, I can venture a guess at some of the motivations of her actions.

She and her husband were both too overweight to enlist, so they began losing pounds to make the reqs, she just made the limit first, so mainly a financial decision to join, not really a lifelong goal of military service (since both of them would join , she just cut the fat better.)

a 8,000 sign up bonus is not bad, not great but better than mine (I got zero..they don't like old people )

Basic training for her was likely hell, if she just barely made the weight limit, then the drastic pace and demanding tempo of PT in basic would be pretty horrible for most in her situation, (I did my drill duties and saw a few recruits in that basket..it was no picnic)

So now she deploys to Iraq and gets to work a gate, and gets to deal with the locals ( not to certain on the SOP in Iraq, but in Afghanistan we always had to have a female at the gate to conduct searches on LN females ), at as the wiki provided description stated she was affected by a "crying two-year-old Iraqi girl coming with her family to claim compensation for bombing by coalition forces" , could be true, but we had LN always coming by claiming we killed livestock or destroyed homes, when ever we did any test fires or artillery training, (even if we personally observed every round we fired and all shots were accounted for..on the side of a empty mountain), They were working the system and getting monetary reoperations from the command...anyway.

The example of her finding a piece of shrapnel in her bunk , ( I assume from a inbound shell/rocket and not just placed there), I guess that could bother a more sensitive person, for me I would feel I dodged a bullet , I had a Portacrapper exploded about 5 min after I used it on a OP..I felt pretty happy bout that.

So all this and likely some other stuff makes her become dis-allusioned and betrayed by the US government, right , got it.

So she gets a early mid term leave back to the states ( she deployed in oct 2006, and ran to Canada 18 feb 2007 ) so a little over 3 months in country.

My guess is the Army was way to hard for this lady, and deployment was really horrible, based on a much more austere living conditions and having to work at anytime required (Although some FOBs are pretty cush )

She could not bring herself to the idea of returning, and I am very dubious to her claims of know she would be going back for another tour ( unless it was just idle barracks generals talk..which happens all the time) and yes likely she would have to go back..maybe once more before her contract was up, but to be fair she had only actually been doing the job tax-payers were paying her for , for 3 months now.

She just made a very stupid choice, and now has 10months in prison ( which is only about 1 month more than she would have had to do to complete her first tour) and a dishonorable discharge on here record, and a dishonorable discharge is no minor thing, regardless of what people say.

she was dumb, and her husband was equally dumb , and kudos to Canada for not playing into her story.


Oh and for hotsauceman1....recruiters may omit all kinds of stuff, and some may even bend the truth, but anyone thinking of joining the military needs to do their own homework and put on their own big boy pants before making such a big decision, its the real world, and the real world will kick your teeth in.

Sorry for the long post, but this is one of my red button topics

Soo'Vah"cha. I can see the rest of your story being plausable, But im curious about how you think about the weight thing. She could have very well put in on in the years since she moved to canada.
NVM, Didnt know there was a wiki on her.
And yeah, I was planning on the military, but i looked into it, and even if i did joing the navy liked i planned, I couldnt to things like that, i would have the guts to.
But the thing i will never forget is this, A friend of mine, this was actually in HS, loved the marines, so much that he took a test in his junior year maybe to get him into the marines at age 17 or something, to get him out of school. I just thought it a tremendously stupid idea in my opinion, leaving school at junior year to join the marines.
And Im not sure what the test was, I was fuzzy on the details.

ASVAB test.....and he was stupid to leave HS to join the Corp. SHould have gradurated first.

 Jihadin wrote:
ASVAB test.....and he was stupid to leave HS to join the Corp. SHould have gradurated first.

Glad we can agree on something, You cant get far in the corps w/o a HS education right?

Can't say for certain about your friend, for some people HS is just wasted on them, the corp may do wonders for him, but generally enjoy being a civilian and young for a bit before getting two of the best words in the world taken from you...NO, and WHY. (never realized how much I missed those little words )

NO, and WHY

The fun

Biggest reason i didnt go in, I have authority problems and have a pathological need to question everything.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Biggest reason i didnt go in, I have authority problems and have a pathological need to question everything.

When your arms had fallen off from the amount of push-ups you had done, you probably would have broken that "need" to do it.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
ASVAB test.....and he was stupid to leave HS to join the Corp. SHould have gradurated first.

Glad we can agree on something, You cant get far in the corps w/o a HS education right?

In today's military you cant even join without a diploma (sequestrations and budget cuts and all that)

@Hotsauce, if you feel the need to question everything, you should have joined my MOS... we get to grill other soldiers on why they broke their equipment And actually, my job is one of the few that is legitimately good for finding work on the outside, if you play your cards right.

Im no longer interested in the military, I have found my love in scholarly pursuits.(Which is what I finally had to say to get the recruiters to stop calling at 4 in the morning.)
But OT:
I understand why she did this, it does sound like she didnt get the full story or was disillusioned. She was wrong to leave and not fufill her obligation.
Her husband sounds like a donkey doing what he did.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
After reading a bit more of the Female deserters story, I can venture a guess at some of the motivations of her actions.
[snip]

So you don't even consider the problems she had at home as a motivator for her decision?

I agree that it was poorly thought out, but considering the situation her husband put her in, I'd say she deserves some sympathy. That sympathy shouldn't be in the form of lesser punishment, mind you. THAT wasn't something that she signed up for when she joined the military-- the rest of it was exactly what you should expect joining the military. That, however? That was something that her husband did entirely of his own volition.

More than one male soldier has gone AWOL over a cheating wife, yet they tend to get more sympathy than this. Sad.