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I think the obvious answer because they have been able to raise 300K without giving away freebies. If you don't need the freebies to drum up interest, then it's simply cutting into your margins for no gain.

Many Kickstarter "freebies" were simply already built into the original pledge level anyways. It's all psychology, at that point.

You should only pledge if you want to support the company. How much you pledge should be based on how much you want to support them, and/or the value provided in return for your pledge, at the time of the pledge.

If you look in this thread, most criticism is NOT about a lack of 'freebies'.

Oh boy. I've barely been able to follow this all day, the big sale is going on on our street. 16K is nothing to scoff at, but it does look like a pittance for such a great product.

 Redbeard wrote:
I don't understand the point of stringing these things out, I really don't. If you're into sci-fi miniatures, you've probably already seen their work, and know it's top quality. Jim's been posting their stuff for a few months now on his blog, and RH has been pimping the kickstarter via both email and facebook for at least two months as well.

Sure, it's had a lot of exposure in the channels we are familiar with. As it turns out though, those channels are really, really limited.

You know that kickstarter I ran? The one that I "advertised" solely with a thread in N&R in the OT, and no where else. No thread created by me on BOLS, Warseer, not a single reference to it on my own Facebook page. That one thread was it.

So, Dakka should have thrown in the vast majority of pledges, right? It was, literally, the only place I posted it.

Dakka was, at the end, 14.25%.

18% came from the Search function in Kickstarter. 9% came from Discover on tabletop games, on Kickstarter. Another 6% from Recently Launched and Ending Soon on Kickstarter. Another 7% from "kickstarter user profiles" (I don't even know what that is) and 4% from users who starred it on Kickstarter. There were also some big bunches from random places it just kind of showed up, like Something Awful and Kotaku. In the end, almost half of my pledges came from Kickstarter itself; and they did so very very consistently - a few percentage points a day for the entire run of the project.

So, while they may have tapped the well of DakkaDakka, BOLS, Warseer etc users within the first day or two, it's a little provincial to think that those users are the entire pool they're going to reach. At least, that's not how it worked in my limited anecdotal experience.

This chart Alpharius posted sums it up perfectly:



Yeah, they went nuts the first day - $250,000 in a single day! Now they're going to be making way less then that; only $34k today. Of course, even if they only average out $20k a day, for the rest of the project, that's another $600,000 - significantly more than that first day that looks so fancy.

I find it illogical for backers to publicly criticize the company they are backing during the campaign. If you are a supporter, it would seem to make the most sense to support them publicly, so that others may be encouraged to support. After, nobody is a "customer" at this stage.

If you think they are doing something wrong, send them a PM.

Imagine an investment firm putting money into a start-up, and then filling up forums with how badly the company is run.

After the campaign is over, public discussion would make a lot more sense, so everyone can learn what works and what doesn't.

 Ouze wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:We obviously see things differently but you can't honestly feel like this company is communicating well with it's public can you?

Well. I have plenty of reservations myself, but I keep seeing this crop up and I'm not sure what you guys are looking for. It's been right around 48 hours, right? Give or take? And they've had 4 official updates? I think an update every 12 hours is sufficient. Is the complaint with the content of the updates, somehow? Honest question - what is it, exactly and specifically that you want to see addressed that hasn't been? Presumably if enough people have the same questions the heralds or whatever can push for it to be addressed in an update.

And seriously, what's up with plastic injection? There - that's the question I haven't seen answered definitively yet. I'm pretty sure at this point if they don't go injection molded they're essentially burning profits.

While I'm not personally too fussed (I'm just enjoying the thread), I cam imagine that while the campaign was going ape gak for the first couple of days, people would have appreciated the updates to be much more frequent, and then to slow down when the campaign itself slows down.

With the injection-moulded plastic, I think they might be pulling a Mantic here and keeping it as a tantalising last-step final-stretch goal to pull out at the last minute in an effort to get people to pledge for additional extras. Rather than actually putting it in where it could easily happen. With so many different sculpts as well, don't expect "all troops" to suddenly turn into plastic, and it's also clear with the "two foundries" statement that they intend to tool and cats the vast majority of the campaign via metal and spin-cast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sythica wrote:
I think the obvious answer because they have been able to raise 300K without giving away freebies. If you don't need the freebies to drum up interest, then it's simply cutting into your margins for no gain.
Many Kickstarter "freebies" were simply already built into the original pledge level anyways. It's all psychology, at that point.
You should only pledge if you want to support the company. How much you pledge should be based on how much you want to support them, and/or the value provided in return for your pledge, at the time of the pledge.

That's how miniatures Kickstarters used to work, and some of the smaller ones still do. Bigger Miniatures campaigns (Mantic, CMON, RH) have evolved into being all about manipulating the consumer into dropping down a fortune with the promise of "added value" stretch goals.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:We obviously see things differently but you can't honestly feel like this company is communicating well with it's public can you?

Well. I have plenty of reservations myself, but I keep seeing this crop up and I'm not sure what you guys are looking for. It's been right around 48 hours, right? Give or take? And they've had 4 official updates? I think an update every 12 hours is sufficient. Is the complaint with the content of the updates, somehow? Honest question - what is it, exactly and specifically that you want to see addressed that hasn't been? Presumably if enough people have the same questions the heralds or whatever can push for it to be addressed in an update.

And seriously, what's up with plastic injection? There - that's the question I haven't seen answered definitively yet. I'm pretty sure at this point if they don't go injection molded they're essentially burning profits.

While I'm not personally too fussed (I'm just enjoying the thread), I cam imagine that while the campaign was going ape gak for the first couple of days, people would have appreciated the updates to be much more frequent, and then to slow down when the campaign itself slows down.

With the injection-moulded plastic, I think they might be pulling a Mantic here and keeping it as a tantalising last-step final-stretch goal to pull out at the last minute in an effort to get people to pledge for additional extras. Rather than actually putting it in where it could easily happen. With so many different sculpts as well, don't expect "all troops" to suddenly turn into plastic, and it's also clear with the "two foundries" statement that they intend to tool and cats the vast majority of the campaign via metal and spin-cast.

I have a feeling it won't be a giant, "And now everything is plastic," sorta thing. I have a feeling its more likely to be something like "Meet this stretch goal and the x box/model will be produced in plastic."

Sythica wrote:
I find it illogical for backers to publicly criticize the company they are backing during the campaign. If you are a supporter, it would seem to make the most sense to support them publicly, so that others may be encouraged to support. After, nobody is a "customer" at this stage.
If you think they are doing something wrong, send them a PM.
Imagine an investment firm putting money into a start-up, and then filling up forums with how badly the company is run.
After the campaign is over, public discussion would make a lot more sense, so everyone can learn what works and what doesn't.

We're all existing and potential customers of RH. Constructive criticism (as opposed to general bitching) is more useful for both sides of the transaction (and indeed, any business or creative endeavour) than slavering fanboi fellatio.


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Tresson wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

With the injection-moulded plastic, I think they might be pulling a Mantic here and keeping it as a tantalising last-step final-stretch goal to pull out at the last minute in an effort to get people to pledge for additional extras. Rather than actually putting it in where it could easily happen. With so many different sculpts as well, don't expect "all troops" to suddenly turn into plastic, and it's also clear with the "two foundries" statement that they intend to tool and cats the vast majority of the campaign via metal and spin-cast.

I have a feeling it won't be a giant, "And now everything is plastic," sorta thing. I have a feeling its more likely to be something like "Meet this stretch goal and the x box/model will be produced in plastic."

Indeed.
As I said, then.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tresson wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

With the injection-moulded plastic, I think they might be pulling a Mantic here and keeping it as a tantalising last-step final-stretch goal to pull out at the last minute in an effort to get people to pledge for additional extras. Rather than actually putting it in where it could easily happen. With so many different sculpts as well, don't expect "all troops" to suddenly turn into plastic, and it's also clear with the "two foundries" statement that they intend to tool and cats the vast majority of the campaign via metal and spin-cast.

I have a feeling it won't be a giant, "And now everything is plastic," sorta thing. I have a feeling its more likely to be something like "Meet this stretch goal and the x box/model will be produced in plastic."

Indeed.
As I said, then.

Yep, I see that now. Just trying to be a bit clearer.

When I was speaking about Kingdom Death I was talking about communication, and specifically referring to the fact that from the get go Adam (Kingdom Death man) was almost always at least 3 hours behind on updates. It was a bit of a downer at first but his updates always pulled me back up... The last 2 updates from Raging Heroes have done the same for me. Yah... cause I'm a junkie, and I need a hit...

As for stretches, KDM also averaged about 1 a day, and I'll admit I was hesitant about a few things for the first few days but by the end of the campaign was more than satisfied. I trust it will be the same here.

 Ouze wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
I don't understand the point of stringing these things out, I really don't. If you're into sci-fi miniatures, you've probably already seen their work, and know it's top quality. Jim's been posting their stuff for a few months now on his blog, and RH has been pimping the kickstarter via both email and facebook for at least two months as well.

Sure, it's had a lot of exposure in the channels we are familiar with. As it turns out though, those channels are really, really limited.

You know that kickstarter I ran? The one that I "advertised" solely with a thread in N&R in the OT, and no where else. No thread created by me on BOLS, Warseer, not a single reference to it on my own Facebook page. That one thread was it.

So, Dakka should have thrown in the vast majority of pledges, right? It was, literally, the only place I posted it.

Dakka was, at the end, 14.25%.

18% came from the Search function in Kickstarter. 9% came from Discover on tabletop games, on Kickstarter. Another 6% from Recently Launched and Ending Soon on Kickstarter. Another 7% from "kickstarter user profiles" (I don't even know what that is) and 4% from users who starred it on Kickstarter. There were also some big bunches from random places it just kind of showed up, like Something Awful and Kotaku. In the end, almost half of my pledges came from Kickstarter itself; and they did so very very consistently - a few percentage points a day for the entire run of the project.

To be fair, people like me showed up under "search function" because the Dakka thread disappeared and we had to go searching for it. "Wasn't there a flying butt Kickstarter? (search) There it is."

I do agree with your overall point, however. RH should use their entire time on KS to get more money. I just don't agree that they should do so by artificially stretching out their current roster of stretch goals instead of thinking up more ambitious ones to follow on their earlier plan. They just come across as greedy now, and I certainly don't feel like I want to support a company that is so disingenuous with their funding requirements and so stingy rewarding people for pre-ordering product at least a year before receiving it.

How much interest do you think we could theoretically make on the pledge money by the time we see any models? Is the KS discount and meager freebie(s?) likely to be worth that? How about the enjoyment you could have gotten from currently-selling minis from companies like Hasslefree or On the Lamb, who actually seem to like their customers?

For me, this is where I see the frustration coming from.

Interest on your pledge? In this economy ROI for keeping money in a savings account is practically a non zero number.

 Azazelx wrote:
While I'm not personally too fussed (I'm just enjoying the thread), I cam imagine that while the campaign was going ape gak for the first couple of days, people would have appreciated the updates to be much more frequent, and then to slow down when the campaign itself slows down. .

I woudl suspect that those cmopulsively watching the total shoot upwards would have been in the minority. For everyone else, checking their emails the following day and having a dozen updates all sitting int hei inbox from the past day would have just been irritating.

greywulf wrote:
When I was speaking about Kingdom Death I was talking about communication, and specifically referring to the fact that from the get go Adam (Kingdom Death man) was almost always at least 3 hours behind on updates. It was a bit of a downer at first but his updates always pulled me back up... The last 2 updates from Raging Heroes have done the same for me. Yah... cause I'm a junkie, and I need a hit...

As for stretches, KDM also averaged about 1 a day, and I'll admit I was hesitant about a few things for the first few days but by the end of the campaign was more than satisfied. I trust it will be the same here.

Uh, what?

KD:M launched at midnight on Friday, November 23, 2012.

48 hours later Adam had posted his tenth update. This also marked the unlock of the first paid add-on (all previous updates had been announcements of free additions to either the base game or the Survivor pledge level). 48 hours into the campaign, Adam had given backers the following;
-5 Kings Men,
-1 Extra Phoenix monster,
-1 Extra Watcher monster,
-16 (8 male, 8 female) multipose miniatures.

It was not until after all the above was added that Adam put up the first paid add-on (the Flower Knight expansion).

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
and I certainly don't feel like I want to support a company that is so disingenuous with their funding requirements and so stingy rewarding people for pre-ordering product at least a year before receiving it.

I don't know about the former, but I wholly agree with the latter.

People have been saying ITT "stop trying to get freebies you cheap punks, be happy you can get the product you paid for at the price listed" - yeah, no. That's a totally fair argument for a retail store, not a Kickstarter. For a Kickstarter I expect and demand things well above and beyond what someone can buy off the shelf a year from now because I'm the one that has to wait for it to be made, and the one taking a chance that the project even happens. Maybe they're crossing the street to get some croissants, and get hit by a bus. Maybe they decide $350,000 goes a lot further in Mexico than it does in France and they decide to move there and spend it all on tequila and tacos. If any of those happen (and yes, they're unlikely) then the legal options available to individual backers boils down to a sad, knowing shrug from Kickstarter. So yes, I absolutely expect there to be some recompense to compensate for all these risk factors. Angel investors don't get into a startup so that they can buy shares at fair market value after the launch happens.

Kickstarter's not a store.

Part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the purpose of Kickstarter. Making a pledge does not make you a customer. It makes you a backer. When you pledge, there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything in return for your pledge. They may go out of business between now and delivery. If that makes you uncomfortable, wait for the product to go up for pre-order on a webstore. Then you will be a customer, not a backer.

And therefore, as a backer, it should be in your best interest to see the total amount of pledges and backers increase. That should help ensure a strong, future customer base.

You have three choices as a backer: passive support, active support, or counter-productive support. Being an active supporter doesn't mean you should ignore the things they are doing wrong. It means you should bring it to their attention directly, not to the attention of people who may be on the fence about backing in the future.

 insaniak wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
While I'm not personally too fussed (I'm just enjoying the thread), I cam imagine that while the campaign was going ape gak for the first couple of days, people would have appreciated the updates to be much more frequent, and then to slow down when the campaign itself slows down. .

I woudl suspect that those cmopulsively watching the total shoot upwards would have been in the minority. For everyone else, checking their emails the following day and having a dozen updates all sitting int hei inbox from the past day would have just been irritating.

Please refer to Buzzsaw's post. Also bear in mind that Aussies and Kiwis who went to bed aside, the people who were piling in the money in the first day, especially those first hours were/are those who were the most invested in it, and the ones who would be the most likely to be watching it and keen to see more updates.

Well, theoretically, in this thread there are heralds gathering concerns and bringing them to the attention RH... right?

Nothing wrong with publicly dissecting a project because seeing how they roll with concerns is useful to project how agile they will be with actual production snafus.

Additionally, this is a public discussion thread, not a rah-rah RH thread. If someone's not a backer, never wants to be one, and wants to come in this thread solely for pointing out perceived flaws or problems, that's totally within their rights to do so.

Absolutely. If you don't want to back a project, and you have a reason not to do so, it may make sense to talk about it. I was speaking towards the people who are saying they are already backers, but they are not happy. As Mr. Spock would say: "That's highly illogical."

Sythica wrote:
Part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the purpose of Kickstarter. Making a pledge does not make you a customer. It makes you a backer. When you pledge, there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything in return for your pledge. They may go out of business between now and delivery. If that makes you uncomfortable, wait for the product to go up for pre-order on a webstore. Then you will be a customer, not a backer.

And therefore, as a backer, it should be in your best interest to see the total amount of pledges and backers increase. That should help ensure a strong, future customer base.

You have three choices as a backer: passive support, active support, or counter-productive support. Being an active supporter doesn't mean you should ignore the things they are doing wrong. It means you should bring it to their attention directly, not to the attention of people who may be on the fence about backing in the future.

Quoted for sense. I wish there was more logic in this thread.

Not at all. A person can back on the future expectation of changes that would make them stay a backer. Anybody can drop at any time before this thing closes, so backing early (especially to lock in one of those early bird specials) makes perfect sense, even if they don't care for everything going on right now. If things change by the end, they stick with their pledge and pay up. If not, they drop from the project

Sythica wrote:

Spoiler:

Part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the purpose of Kickstarter. Making a pledge does not make you a customer. It makes you a backer. When you pledge, there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything in return for your pledge. They may go out of business between now and delivery. If that makes you uncomfortable, wait for the product to go up for pre-order on a webstore. Then you will be a customer, not a backer.

And therefore, as a backer, it should be in your best interest to see the total amount of pledges and backers increase. That should help ensure a strong, future customer base.

You have three choices as a backer: passive support, active support, or counter-productive support. Being an active supporter doesn't mean you should ignore the things they are doing wrong. It means you should bring it to their attention directly, not to the attention of people who may be on the fence about backing in the future.

Let me put it as simply as possible: I believe that everything that you have just said is either wrong or irrelevant. However, rather then write out my reasons at length yet again, I invite you to read this thread.

I am not yet so arrogant as to pretend that thread is revealed truth: but it an accurate representation of the thought process of individuals such as myself who believe that to point out mistakes is valuable feedback, far more valuable then passive engagement or uncritical support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 recruittons wrote:
Not at all. A person can back on the future expectation of changes that would make them stay a backer. Anybody can drop at any time before this thing closes, so backing early (especially to lock in one of those early bird specials) makes perfect sense, even if they don't care for everything going on right now. If things change by the end, they stick with their pledge and pay up. If not, they drop from the project

Listen to this man, he has the biscuit to prove it!

Sythica wrote:
Part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the purpose of Kickstarter. Making a pledge does not make you a customer. It makes you a backer. When you pledge, there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything in return for your pledge. They may go out of business between now and delivery. If that makes you uncomfortable, wait for the product to go up for pre-order on a webstore. Then you will be a customer, not a backer.

And therefore, as a backer, it should be in your best interest to see the total amount of pledges and backers increase. That should help ensure a strong, future customer base.

You have three choices as a backer: passive support, active support, or counter-productive support. Being an active supporter doesn't mean you should ignore the things they are doing wrong. It means you should bring it to their attention directly, not to the attention of people who may be on the fence about backing in the future.

OK new poster. We've had the "purpose of kickstarter" debate multiple times ad nauseum in the past, and we're pretty much all past it at this stage, even Zweischneid (sp?). I don't think anyone here is interested in your lecture on what you think we "should" be doing, and frankly, it's rather condescending for someone with 8 posts to come on and start telling the rest of us what we should and should not be talking about and how we should best do it. Yes, your post count is actually significant in this case, as you're not an established member of the community at this stage, and so while you're most welcome to join in discussions, people tend not to look too kindly on "strangers" coming in and trying to tell existing communities how to behave. Most online forums including Dakka - and indeed, different sections of the Dakka board - as a whole are essentially different communities and sub-communities with different "regulars" and in turn, different social norms. Try acting the same way you might on Frothers here on Dakka and you'll see. I post slightly differently here than the way I do on my own blog, or f13.

Frankly, people in an established community with established norms tend not to appreciate new posters* coming in and attempting to direct traffic in this manner. So please bear that in mind.
(and even if you've been lurking for the last 18 months.. 8 posts makes you a new poster)

So please be welcome, stay, join in and contribute to the discussion. Don't tell us how we "should" behave or what we "should" post.

I feel like I should pledge a couple bucks just to pay for all the entertainment derived from their KS drama.

As an interesting sidenote, if someone backs early, and then drops out on their pledge, and they had one of the Early Bird specials, does it become available again?

 Jimsolo wrote:
As an interesting sidenote, if someone backs early, and then drops out on their pledge, and they had one of the Early Bird specials, does it become available again?

Yes

 Kroothawk wrote:
Okay, what would you suggest?
a.) Unlock all miniatures on day one and then unlock nothing for the other 32 days?

Yes. The three month wait front-loaded the pledges, so they should have responded by front-loading the stretch goals - at least the ones that don't give you anything free. If $300,000 is enough to justify making everything in all three ranges, they should have made everything in all three ranges. Dicking around with things like this just punishes everyone for pledging promptly - we would all be better off if people had pledged $20,000 on the first day and stopped and waited until Raging Heroes locked themselves into a new block of stretch goals.

Sythica wrote:
Absolutely. If you don't want to back a project, and you have a reason not to do so, it may make sense to talk about it. I was speaking towards the people who are saying they are already backers, but they are not happy. As Mr. Spock would say: "That's highly illogical."

 recruittons wrote:
Not at all. A person can back on the future expectation of changes that would make them stay a backer. Anybody can drop at any time before this thing closes, so backing early (especially to lock in one of those early bird specials) makes perfect sense, even if they don't care for everything going on right now. If things change by the end, they stick with their pledge and pay up. If not, they drop from the project

Well put, recruittons. I'm not unhappy, but I'm not particularly excited, either. If/when campaigns put in "early bird" level pledges to manipulate their potential backers into diving in early, expect a great deal of those pledges to be speculative. Larger Miniatures Kickstarters are a meta-game. RH is playing it, extending the stretch goals based on the campaign rather than the amount of funds required, hinting at "you'll be happy with the extras at the end of the campaign", teasing the promise of injection moulded plastics "if the campaign does really well" without actually giving a number.

I don't think someone's post count virtually ever influences the accuracy or value of their posts.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Okay, what would you suggest?
a.) Unlock all miniatures on day one and then unlock nothing for the other 32 days?

Yes. The three month wait front-loaded the pledges, so they should have responded by front-loading the stretch goals - at least the ones that don't give you anything free. If $300,000 is enough to justify making everything in all three ranges, they should have made everything in all three ranges. Dicking around with things like this just punishes everyone for pledging promptly - we would all be better off if people had pledged $20,000 on the first day and stopped and waited until Raging Heroes locked themselves into a new block of stretch goals.

Of course. But that's part of the game. And it's why "Early Bird" pledges exist - to stop us from waiting until the second-last day to pledge.