Could GW axe Fantasy?

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**somewheresomehow**

I doubt they would ever truly "axe" WHFB, but I could see it going the way of the SoB. It may be a flagship piece, but if it is neglected too long, it simply becomes an alternative sculpt for other game systems.

Also, it could be that GW internal reviewers of the line think that if the fantasy line goes either bust or belly up, that they will "retain" enough of their fantasy players by getting them to switch to 40k due to "brand loyalty."

I think if this is actually occuring (which we could never really know,) that the company is being fed bald-faced lies from the inside, and could be why they are neglecting Fantasy.

**Vulcan**

JWhex wrote:
caledoneus wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
Sure GW can axe fantasy. And you better believe other companies will move into the void but quick, to pick up all the disgruntled WFB players.

I'm sure Mantic would absolutely love it if they did... b/c all those fantasy players would probably move over to KOW... KOW is actually a pretty fun ruleset to play.

It is debatable how many would switch to a game system that most players have never heard of. Some of the Mantic figures such as the elves are really crap as well.

Oh, agreed. But you could just as easily play Kings of War using your existing GW miniatures as you could use Kings of War miniatures for WFB...

**Nitros14**

Around here in Victoria B.C. 8th caused a surge of fantasy players. It's certainly more popular now than it ever has been here. Almost everyone owns a fantasy army. We got 60 players out to a local tournament.

**Color Sgt. Kell**

MajorStoffer wrote:
Generally speaking, I think that 40k has a more broad appeal than fantasy. It's more unique in its aesthetic, fluff and gameplay. Locally, most stores have a significantly larger 40k playerbase with a single exception. At the store I frequent, there's a fantasy game once every month, sometimes less, with a half dozen people owning a single army. The 40k crowd is over 40, with many owning multiple armies, and the product movement reflects this.

At the end of the day, Fantasy is the more expensive game to get in to, the current edition is overly reliant on the magic phase, and the core gameplay can be experienced in a wide variety of cheaper mediums, whether that be historical wargames, or computer games (The Total War series combat mechanics are almost the exact same, just more intricate).

40k is cheaper, faster and, I feel, a more dynamic game to play. That doesn't mean, however, fantasy is going to be dropped.

The rumourmill is indicating fantasy is being condensed; bulk army books and the like, and GW has been heavily favouring 40k in this release cycle. I think GW is finally willing to admit, at least to itself, that fantasy isn't #1 anymore; they're not going to axe it, but I also don't think they're willing to invest the time and money in reinvigorating it at this point.

This comment makes the most sense out of anyone's imho. At least for my area and my experience, this is completely true.

**Relapse**

-Loki- wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Cyporiean wrote:
12thRonin wrote:
They could, but they won't. It is a flagship product.

Weren't Epic and Lord of The Rings?

Granted LOTR 'became' The Hobbit, but still.

Epic was featured in old White Dwarf magazines almost as heavily as Fantasy and 40K and had a fair sized amount of store space devoted to it.

Again, if you missed it earlier - cutting Epic didn't cut 40k as an IP, they still had a game in that setting. Cutting Warhammer Fantasy is completely different, because it's the only game they currently sell in that universe. So they're effectively be giving up the Fantasy IP if they drop Fantasy Battles. The sole reason they won't do it is because of that - and shareholders would hate to see a yearly report that says 'we gave up 1/3 of our IP', when their IP is their most valuable asset.

If that IP is losing them money, they'll axe it in a heartbeat. As I said earlier, Epic was making them good money back in the day and was considered their third core game. It doesn't matter to them if they don't have anything in Fantasy if they're losing money on it. They still have the copyrights on everything and could probably kick out a limited edition whatever every now and then to keep the copy right. That part is just a guess for me since I'm no expert in copy right law, but that seems to be the way I heard it goes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Here's the deal. GW is a corporation. For it to make decisions, they have to make business sense.

Right now it has multiple game products. If you get burnt-out on one game, you can go over to another and still be feeding them $. If you look at peoples' signatures, you will see 40K and Fantasy in the same forums. That is great news for GW. If a bad release of 40K comes out (or WHFB), those players are gone and may not come back if they don't have another game to go to in the same company.

Likewise, they are paying for stores. They are leasing them. Which is a huge cost. They have floor space to fill. They can't go to the mall owners and say, "we'd like to pay 25% less rent because we are no longer using part of our store." That's a fixed price. And I haven't seen many stores that are just dying for space. Gamers don't mind tight corners.

Most importantly is models. We live in a smart fulfillment era. They know what models sell and are back-ordered. Especially with online ordering. I'm pretty certain they don't have 10 warehouses with boxes stacked up to the ceiling, hoping and praying people will order them. They know the hot sellers and which ones are snatched up each month. And when they fall below a certain threshold, they make more. I.e., there isn't a huge cost associated with having a model available because they don't have to store it long.

tl;dr - there is almost no reason to shut it down. The costs have to be > than the profits for them to do so, and at this point that is pretty inconceivable. The crossover ability of players to move from one game to another is a very strong motivator itself. I started with 40K...

That's pretty much, in my mind an accurate appraisal you put out.

**Haight**

I personally can't see them axeing fantasy all together, because they'd essentially hand over that segment of the existing market (i.e. - fantasy playing mini's gamers) to their competitors in full.

If it's profitable (even marginally so in relation to fixed, controllable costs), i think they'll keep it up. That said, if it ever starts losing money, or if that market shrinks drastically (i don't think it will, but for the sake of argument) - yes i can see them putting a bullet in Fantasy.

GW isn't a company that strikes me as willing to let the profits of one product carry an unprofitable one. They have shareholders to answer to.

-- Haight

**TheDungen**

40k and fantasy have always shifted periodically in popularity, nothing new.

**thedarkavenger**

Could GW axe fantasy? Yes.

Will GW axe fantasy? No.

Question answered. Thread over.

**DukeRustfield**

Another thing besides Teh Game is the Intellectual Property. They have decades of value invested in the IP that is fantasy. IP tends to carry more value than the main product nowadays through licensing.

I'm betting they make a ton more money licensing 40K stuff than they do selling models for it.

Fantasy isn't nearly in as good a shape in that regards, but if they stopped the game, they cut off the potential for selling anything else around it. The fact there is brand awareness around Witch Hunters and Altdorf and Chaos Wastes and Slann is a huge deal. Companies die to try and build that kind of following. It's why Lord of the Rings could be a zillion dollar franchise and Master of the Neclaces won't ever get made, because the IP around Tolkien is gigantic.

Even when (computer) games aren't successful they are still paid a licensing fee for the honor of trying.

Put another way, if for whatever insane reason GW was going to shutter fantasy, another company would buy the IP. It is simply too valuable to cease to exist even if you never made models. You can cancel Blood Bowl or whatever individual games, but they're going to keep all that IP and release novels and comp games and whatever.

**Enigwolf**

DukeRustfield wrote:

I'm betting they make a ton more money licensing 40K stuff than they do selling models for it..

They don't.

**JWhex**

A lot of people in my local area that quit fantasy went to Flames of War. If fantasy is axed, a lot of people will just be turned off from tabletop wargaming and find some other hobby.

**DukeRustfield**

Enigwolf wrote:
DukeRustfield wrote:

I'm betting they make a ton more money licensing 40K stuff than they do selling models for it..

They don't.

Based on:
http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2011-12-Press-statement.pdf

In the 6 months of the report they had 18.7M profit from core. And 2.6M profit from royalties. And that was mostly from THQ's Space Marine.

So yeah, it's a lot less. But still that's noticeable. The deal is, revenue was like 62M and it gets chunked down to 18.7 because of all the costs. Royalties only get reduced by the department of people who have to run the licensing (listed as 270K in expenses). That's the power of IP. ~90% profit. As opposed to like 30ish % profit for the manufacturing. It's a good gig if you can get it. Ask George Lucas.

**-Loki-**

Relapse wrote:
If that IP is losing them money, they'll axe it in a heartbeat. As I said earlier, Epic was making them good money back in the day and was considered their third core game. It doesn't matter to them if they don't have anything in Fantasy if they're losing money on it. They still have the copyrights on everything and could probably kick out a limited edition whatever every now and then to keep the copy right. That part is just a guess for me since I'm no expert in copy right law, but that seems to be the way I heard it goes.

Still not the same.

They need to be actively producing stuff to hold the trademark. If they axed Fantasy, they'd not be producing those models anymore, so wouldn't be actively using their trademark to hold onto it.

Axing Epic didn't lose them the 40k IP because they were still making Warhammer 40k. Axing Epic was like axing Warmaster - it was a game using the 40k IP. Now? 40k is the game using the 40k IP, just like WHFB is the game using the WHFB IP. Axing Fantasy is basically dropping 1/3 of their games and 1/2 of their proprietary IP. Not something Investors would want to see, since the strength of the company is its IP.

**Enigwolf**

DukeRustfield wrote:
Enigwolf wrote:
DukeRustfield wrote:

I'm betting they make a ton more money licensing 40K stuff than they do selling models for it..

They don't.

Based on:
http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2011-12-Press-statement.pdf

In the 6 months of the report they had 18.7M profit from core. And 2.6M profit from royalties. And that was mostly from THQ's Space Marine.

So yeah, it's a lot less. But still that's noticeable. The deal is, revenue was like 62M and it gets chunked down to 18.7 because of all the costs. Royalties only get reduced by the department of people who have to run the licensing (listed as 270K in expenses). That's the power of IP. ~90% profit. As opposed to like 30ish % profit for the manufacturing. It's a good gig if you can get it. Ask George Lucas.

Ahah, but you never stated clearly originally if you were referring to revenues or profit streams.

I've been keeping up with their investor reports, my apologies for not linking it in my previous post. I do agree that licensing has a lot less costs involved, but you cannot simply separate the two and state that licensing has a higher profit margin. The reason for this is that licensing depends on the IP, the IP development of which relies on the devs working on the 40k game. So technically the costs for that should be split between both licensing and the core game. But in any case, it's hard to make a justifiable comparison between the profit streams of the two since they're interlinked with one another.

**DukeRustfield**

That never happens. The GW knows nothing about hiring and designing computer games or the plush blanket market in northern United States, or online t-shirts. That's why they license it to those who do.

But all this backs up to my point that they'll never axe the IP. To have an IP this be and successful and to be actively losing money on it would have to be some legal nightmare.

They can say, hey, we're making a Lord of the Rings movie and it will make a billion. Because that IP is so old and has been passed through so many generations it has basically funded itself. Unless the movie was naked monkey porn wrestling, it would still probably broken even.

**Dr. Cheesesteak**

MajorStoffer wrote:
Generally speaking, I think that 40k [is] more unique in its aesthetic, fluff and gameplay.

not sure if...

Azazelx wrote:
It's often been observed in the past that WFB is far more popular in Europe than it is in the US. The sales figures given all seem to be anecdotal and mostly US-based.

Gearhead wrote:
I was always under the impression that 40K was the big thing in the US, and WFB was the big thing everywhere else (or at least Europe...)

Yeah, I've always kind of heard/assumed the UK/Europe is what is keeping Fantasy alive, financially.

pities2004 wrote:
Fantasy is booming in Arizona, gotta love conspiracy theories on GW axing WHFB

Nitros14 wrote:
Around here in Victoria B.C. 8th caused a surge of fantasy players. It's certainly more popular now than it ever has been here. Almost everyone owns a fantasy army. We got 60 players out to a local tournament.

this too. All depends on the area.

-Loki- wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:
Is WH Fantasy really still being played in places?

I haven't seen a game of it played in at least 2 years. And it used to be bigger than everything else put together.

No, you're right. The fact that you haven't seen a game in stores or clubs you frequent is totally representative of the entire world, and GW have been doing huge updates to Fantasy ranges in the hopes that, one day, some day, someone will buy a Fantasy kit.

ahah, exactly. see above. I too like feeding into other people's hyperboles. Just recently a girl on FB asked "is it true everyone cheats?" And I replied "yes, all 7 billion people in the world cheat." Not sure how or why, in today's easily accessed world, people can still think their little bubble applies to the entire world.

Ailaros wrote:
If WHFB is really declining, it's because of things that GW has done on purpose, or, rather, what they haven't.

40k has tons of books, and RPGs, and movies, and video games about it. GW spends way more focus (and money) advertising and making content for 40k while doing much, much less for WHFB. Of course fantasy is going to suffer if they don't give it very much attention (and take what attention they did have and peel it off towards their other fantasy game in a desperate bid to make it profitable).

It's not so much a problem with fantasy being bad, so much as it not being played up as much of late.

I agree. It's almost like a vicious cycle or the case of the chicken and the egg. Is 40k more popular b/c GW promotes it more? Or does GW promote 40k more b/c it's more popular? I think GW has made some decent attempts to promote Fantasy recently (video games, expansions, that card game, etc)...well maybe not in the past year or so. But I think it's just been at the wrong time. They could've struck gold w/ WAR, in fact, they did for a short while, but the end-game wasn't enough or was too faulty for people to want to continue playing. And yeah, there's the whole Privateer Press thing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh also, I have a theory on how GW could keep WHFB "alive" - sell pre-assembled, pre-painted models. I'd f'ing buy them.

**Enigwolf**

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh also, I have a theory on how GW could keep WHFB "alive" - sell pre-assembled, pre-painted models. I'd f'ing buy them.

It won't happen. The "Hobby" aspect is what GW sells as a pitch to their shareholders, not the actual IP. It's all over their Investor page.

**DukeRustfield**

As an investor, I could give a crap what they're selling. I want a return on my investment. If GW says they found a fountain that turns poo to gold, no one is going to care if they stop making plastic models. Because they will be rich. And can make their own plastic models.

IBM used to make computers. When it became unprofitable for them, they changed their business model.

**CthuluIsSpy**

thedarkavenger wrote:
Could GW axe fantasy? Yes.

Will GW axe fantasy? No.

Question answered. Thread over.

Exactly my thoughts

**Dr. Cheesesteak**

Enigwolf wrote:
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh also, I have a theory on how GW could keep WHFB "alive" - sell pre-assembled, pre-painted models. I'd f'ing buy them.

It won't happen. The "Hobby" aspect is what GW sells as a pitch to their shareholders, not the actual IP. It's all over their Investor page.

i know, but a man can dream, right?!

Plus, they could still offer the sprues. Perhaps lower the prices on them. But increase prices on assembled+painted to make up for it.

I.e. say a box of Warriors of Chaos on sprues costs $20 (from $35), but a box of pre-assembled+painted Warriors of Chaos would be $50

Just a rough example, not sure how that'd balance out in regards to expenses and revenue, supply/demand, etc.

**SoCxWarChief**

MajorStoffer wrote:
Generally speaking, I think that 40k has a more broad appeal than fantasy. It's more unique in its aesthetic, fluff and gameplay. Locally, most stores have a significantly larger 40k playerbase with a single exception. At the store I frequent, there's a fantasy game once every month, sometimes less, with a half dozen people owning a single army. The 40k crowd is over 40, with many owning multiple armies, and the product movement reflects this.

At the end of the day, Fantasy is the more expensive game to get in to, the current edition is overly reliant on the magic phase, and the core gameplay can be experienced in a wide variety of cheaper mediums, whether that be historical wargames, or computer games (The Total War series combat mechanics are almost the exact same, just more intricate).

40k is cheaper, faster and, I feel, a more dynamic game to play. That doesn't mean, however, fantasy is going to be dropped.

The rumourmill is indicating fantasy is being condensed; bulk army books and the like, and GW has been heavily favouring 40k in this release cycle. I think GW is finally willing to admit, at least to itself, that fantasy isn't #1 anymore; they're not going to axe it, but I also don't think they're willing to invest the time and money in reinvigorating it at this point.

Perhaps if GW and Hobby Stores catered more to Fantasy, whether it be with campaigns, ladders, tournaments, etc, there would be a revamped interest in flocking to it. What is one to do when another system is receiving all the hype and attention as the Flavor of the month / week / day / second of every second?

**DukeRustfield**

I'm not sure why they got out of sponsoring tournaments. You are leaving your brand in the hands of people who might screw it up. Even if GW loses money on every tourney, the point isn't to make money off of it directly, it's marketing.

TSR always had Gencon even though there were tons of other RPG and tabletop gaming conventions across the country.

**Enigwolf**

DukeRustfield wrote:
I'm not sure why they got out of sponsoring tournaments. You are leaving your brand in the hands of people who might screw it up. Even if GW loses money on every tourney, the point isn't to make money off of it directly, it's marketing.

TSR always had Gencon even though there were tons of other RPG and tabletop gaming conventions across the country.

Because they do not officially support tournaments as their game systems are not for competitive, tournament play, according to them.

**aosol**

It would be brighter idea, business wise to create a more enjoyable set of rules and breathe in a new life to the game. People would easily embrace it again. Granted, I Started under the current set of rules.

**Strayan**

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha...
oh gak... this guy is being serious....
[Mod Edit - don't try to circumvent the expletive filter. Thanks - Alpharius]

**Enigwolf**

Did you have anything useful to add?

**Strayan**

Enigwolf wrote:

Did you have anything useful to add?

Well now that you mention it yes I do...
This is a useless subject to entertain...
Useful enough?

**pities2004**

I need to start selling Tin Foil hats, I'll make a killing.