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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How do you "adapt" as a melee-centric army in an edition where every new Codex gets more and more ways to make sure you've got no chance in hell to get into melee in the first place?

But that would be like asking: how to adapt as a no-anti-tank-army in 5th edition transport-hammer?
You change your army so it's not no-anti-tank-army. It really sucks but 6th edition seems to change "adapt" to "shelf" in regard to meele armies.
I'm not trying to be condensending. I like the choppy aspect of 40k and do not agree that it should be mainly shooty based game. Hang on and wait for better times.

This of course ties with OP: Tau are one of the things that kick meele armies (maybe not some specific builds) right in the nuts so it gets hated. It also does that with shooty armies as a bonus.
If your army is a perfect counter to another army don't expect it to be loved. You *should* expect other people not to behave like idiots so the guy in the story is definitely not excused.

Well with allies, it is a valid suggestion. It is no different from saying "Take X from a codex"

So, what allied unit(s) lets me get into CC with Tau faster?

I really dont get the "allies" requirement, I already told you that chaos HAS quick melee units.
The only point is to use them right, and deploy right (even setting terrain has strategy these days)

I have already suffered T2 charges from chaos. its not THAT hard to pull off, I mean you CAN get infiltrating bikers!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So, what allied unit(s) lets me get into CC with Tau faster?

I am assuming you mean CSM?
Well Imperial guard are allies of conviniance, meaning you can take them and they can score. Keep a blob or two in the back field with some heavy armor to pummel tau while you close in.
Or better yet, fight fire with fire, put some tau in there.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I really dont get the "allies" requirement, I already told you that chaos HAS quick melee units.
The only point is to use them right, and deploy right (even setting terrain has strategy these days)

I have already suffered T2 charges from chaos. its not THAT hard to pull off, I mean you CAN get infiltrating bikers!

He's Black Templars, not Chaos...

Oh templars?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Oh templars?

Careful what you say... us BT players are sensitive

You guys didnt even get a page in the BRB

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So, what allied unit(s) lets me get into CC with Tau faster?

grey knight palidins

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
You guys didnt even get a page in the BRB

How does that make me sympathize with you? ... a Tau player and all again? I mean after tearing into someone like that just now and all... maybe I should rebuttal that all Tau Players treat cool armies with such disrespect.

Well I have tried to tell people online in several places here on Dakkadakka and on my blog how to ADAPT to this or that. And it is met with the same unimaginative mantras.

But if you REALLY want to know, you gotta start viewing lists in a different way than before.

FOR EXAMPLE (just to nip the inevitable "thats too vague" comment in the bud): Someone asked me how to make a Khornate army work. After a while and some thought, I realize that target saturation (what we also call MSU) at the point of attack, not just in the list, is whats needed. So I recommended a fairly unique solution to try. I doubt he will, but I thought it at least worth testing. Basically TAU are the "problem du jour" that this Khorne guy is worried about. So I explained that if you took three separate mutilators, 3 separate Obliterators and khornate jump troops with rhino screens, you could make one HELL of a target priority problem for a Tau player and waste entire units on basically killing one model...or else.

Dispersing an enemys firepower in such a dramatic and sudden way requires serious balls. And if you're one of those Internetters whose playing time is so sparse that you cant AFFORD to take up what FEW days you get to game with testing, then sure. it probably doesn't sound awesome to spend you're time trying. but if you're like me with a LOT of time available to game and test it sounds like a great thing to test. Ive seen this done, essentially, with Paladins.

i dont need to be told...by the way... that mutilators aren't real great. But what I can tell you is that the Codex DOEs allow you to really overload an enemy with targets all in round 2, and then chop up their Overwatch badly, allowing army to move into its attack position. since Chaos has no drop pods, thsi kind of approach is the second best thing.

Will it work? Dunno. But should you maybe try it...and a HUNDRED ideas like it before you DECLARE melee dead? Probably.

My last two gripes about Tau, after new Broadside killed the one about their mechs being boxy kids toys (Riptide is almost Heldrakey bad though imo), is that they should look more like this:

http://img6.gram.pl/20121006121939.jpg

instead of this:

http://media.npr.org/assets/blogs/thetwo-way/images/2010/03/ackbar-dfdfea93d8ed875f978acf5fcbf63b65c0cf7033-s6-c30.jpg

and the second gripe, the fluff is not grimdark enough. The subtle grimdark is better than no grimdark but in your face evil hopeless grimdark grimdarkness FTW

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I have NEVER encounter hate for my SM, yet TAU I do encounter hate for

You mean boring easy mode posterboys for kids, walking toilets with toilets on their arms, loosers dying for rotten corpse?

SM hate is old, wide and strong imo.

 Jancoran wrote:
I play a ton of armies. That way i never have to feel butt hurt about anything BUT prices. Codex's? Meh. Adapt or die.

I have a few armies too but your quote, that's kind of a crap thing to say. Majority of people own one army each and have valid concerns about GW, meta, balance etc. Adapt or die that's good for computer games not TT game when preparing an army might take months, the meta shifts should not be that drastic.

I guess when GW will sell us millions of flyers and then nerf them to oblivion you will be happy because you spent thousands of $ on multiple armies. GW loves you for sure.

 Jancoran wrote:

FOR EXAMPLE (just to nip the inevitable "thats too vague" comment in the bud): Someone asked me how to make a Khornate army work. After a while and some thought, I realize that target saturation (what we also call MSU) at the point of attack, not just in the list, is whats needed. So I recommended a fairly unique solution to try. I doubt he will, but I thought it at least worth testing. Basically TAU are the "problem du jour" that this Khorne guy is worried about. So I explained that if you took three separate mutilators, 3 separate Obliterators and khornate jump troops with rhino screens, you could make one HELL of a target priority problem for a Tau player and waste entire units on basically killing one model...or else.

Haha... I like your sarcasm !

People tend to play wrong against the new tau. This ranges from BA players DSing small power armour units right in their face and wondering about how they couldve killed those to space wolves players that try to outshoot them. Afterwards those players complain about how OP tau are.

One of our local tau players (all of our locals were playing tau before the update too) always fields at least one railgun broadside because some people still identify them as the biggest threat in his army and try to take them out first ... i mean there are different target priority tactics that worked against the new tau ... but doing it the old way will net you a loss.

Dont give anything about it. People are strange.

 Jancoran wrote:
Well I have tried to tell people online in several places here on Dakkadakka and on my blog how to ADAPT to this or that. And it is met with the same unimaginative mantras.

But if you REALLY want to know, you gotta start viewing lists in a different way than before.

FOR EXAMPLE (just to nip the inevitable "thats too vague" comment in the bud): Someone asked me how to make a Khornate army work. After a while and some thought, I realize that target saturation (what we also call MSU) at the point of attack, not just in the list, is whats needed. So I recommended a fairly unique solution to try. I doubt he will, but I thought it at least worth testing. Basically TAU are the "problem du jour" that this Khorne guy is worried about. So I explained that if you took three separate mutilators, 3 separate Obliterators and khornate jump troops with rhino screens, you could make one HELL of a target priority problem for a Tau player and waste entire units on basically killing one model...or else.

Dispersing an enemys firepower in such a dramatic and sudden way requires serious balls. And if you're one of those Internetters whose playing time is so sparse that you cant AFFORD to take up what FEW days you get to game with testing, then sure. it probably doesn't sound awesome to spend you're time trying. but if you're like me with a LOT of time available to game and test it sounds like a great thing to test. Ive seen this done, essentially, with Paladins.

i dont need to be told...by the way... that mutilators aren't real great. But what I can tell you is that the Codex DOEs allow you to really overload an enemy with targets all in round 2, and then chop up their Overwatch badly, allowing army to move into its attack position. since Chaos has no drop pods, thsi kind of approach is the second best thing.

Will it work? Dunno. But should you maybe try it...and a HUNDRED ideas like it before you DECLARE melee dead? Probably.

Another solution is LRs with Dirge Casters and loaded down with your choice of assault units. Expensive, but very effective against many Tau builds as generally only nova-charged Riptides and the rarely used Hammerheads have long range shots strong enough to penetrate (and even that isn't guaranteed). Missile-sides can't scratch them, the majority of the heavier Tau weapons can only glance them, and if the Khorne player runs them flat out, they will easily be in assault by turn 2 (and the dirge casters coupled with the massive size of a LR hull keeps much of that nasty OW off your back). For added support, run a Rhino or two also with dirge casters in case the LR isn't quite in 6". Heck, throw a Maulerfiend into the mix to cause even more havoc (running behind the LR for cover and/or blocked LOS).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I really dont get the "allies" requirement, I already told you that chaos HAS quick melee units.
The only point is to use them right, and deploy right (even setting terrain has strategy these days)

I have already suffered T2 charges from chaos. its not THAT hard to pull off, I mean you CAN get infiltrating bikers!

He's Black Templars, not Chaos...

There is the problem then, BT codex is just as outdated and malfunctioning as the old tau codex was. the issue is not Tau being too good, is BT being not good enough.

Once they get patched up, they will be a fair stand. but you really cant say "tau are op" because your army can't handle them, when your army can't really handle anything that is halfway optimized.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

I have a few armies too but your quote, that's kind of a crap thing to say. Majority of people own one army each and have valid concerns about GW, meta, balance etc. Adapt or die that's good for computer games not TT game when preparing an army might take months, the meta shifts should not be that drastic.

I really don't think so. GW is trying to make the fiel;d more fair and FAST by issuing codex's at this rate. Its pretty clear (to me) that they have been planning this roll out for a long time and that once the baseline is set, people will be able to adjust more easily with the full panoply of 40K now before them and updated.

But you need to stop blaming GW/Anyone but yourself if you can't adjust tactically. For Sisters of Battle, it took me two models to adjust to 6E. I know they aren't free. Gawd knows *I* know that because I have a large collection. When it took me TWO models, I just dont think thats a HUGE deal in the LONG run when you're going to be playing thegame for the next 20 years (or whatever years YOU intend to).

My Tau needed ZERO models to adjust. I bought two Riptides because they are frigging awesome looking and they are frigging awesome performers as i founc out later, but I could easily play without them and the list I am developing uses zero Riptides (which makes me aesthetically sad, but what can ya do).

IG? I didn't even add models. Chaos? bought one Heldrake. That's it. So when I hear people moaning aboutthis stuff that only OWN one army its falling on deaf ears. Unless you're army collection is miniscule and you are destitute, which ISNT most of us, then my remark stands. But if you're both of those things, then yeah, probably need a new hobby.

I know, when my SM come out i doupt i will have to do anything but buy the codex(and maybe MORE bikes)

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I know, when my SM come out i doupt i will have to do anything but buy the codex(and maybe MORE bikes)

Never underestimate their ability to suck money from your wallet. That is primary area where they always made sense was to create a new something (probably something really tall with big guns at about $100) to get the money from the legacy 40k players.

 Mywik wrote:
One of our local tau players always fields at least one railgun broadside because some people still identify them as the biggest threat in his army and try to take them out first ...

Well, people have all sorts of ideas. My tactic vs Tau is to kill their scoring units and any tanks first, then Pathfinders, then worry about the tough suits. I seldom manage to wipe out all of the suits but that doesn't matter if the Tau can no longer score and I have even one scoring unit camping an objective. And I do this with SoB - many tournaments would give me extra points for being handicapped. But what works against me (little special wargear or tricks) also works for me - there's no one-trick pony for the Tau to shut down.

Land raider spartan with armoured ceramite for regualer SM (its a HS for SM, BT, DA, BA, and SW) or one without for CSM (again HS for CSM).

the rules for this bad boy are on the forge world site under the spartan assault tank.

for 45 pts more than a regular Land Raider it holds 25 models, it had 2 quad lascannons (2 tl shots each). with the armoured ceramite you can ignore melta weapons. Drive this bad boy up and Dump 25 models worth of guys into your enemy.

 Mywik wrote:
People tend to play wrong against the new tau. This ranges from BA players DSing small power armour units right in their face and wondering about how they couldve killed those to space wolves players that try to outshoot them. Afterwards those players complain about how OP tau are.

Just out of curiosity, what should the BA player do?

Wanna hear something crazy? a pair of whirlwinds would not be a bad start.

I know. I know. But have you tried it yet? Just give it a shot. hard not to get your points out of them. Can't say it'll never happen but...

I'm late to the party, and haven't read everything so I'd be surprised if no one said this already (in which case I apologise):
My issue with t
Tau is that they play Tauhammer 40k. Well, they force me to play it.
I don't get to use cover.
I don't get to shoot thanks to JSJ.
I don't get to assault either.

Tau remove tactical decisions and force me to slowly move forward to limit JSJ room, while shooting at whatever I can. All the time cover is rather irrelevant, and the only point in using it is to reduce the number of MLs used for BS5.

I don't rant about it, but I generally avoid playing Tau because I don't find it fun.

Yeah fair enough.
Tau do change the rules and force you to play the game their way.
I am not moaning because i have lost against tau (I haven't lost against Tau in the many many games i have played.)
I am moaning because Tau change the game and it becomes not so fun to see that unit you payed for, painted and placed in your army be destroyed because it becomes useless (My Rangers...)
You have to play their game and need to keep moving up to catch them. It's doable for Eldar, but other armies must find it hell.
Fire warriors have long range and high strength. Their low ballistic skill (A needed weakness) is then removed with marker-lights.
They could markerlight a flyer and fire anything at reasonable ballistic skill and they are the only army i can see that are prepped to deal with every situation that can be thrown at them.

May I voice my main complaint about Tau? I realized this while reading the 400th issue of White Dwarf. The paint scheme is too cartoonish. I realize that all of this universe has a cartoon edge present in it, and over the years this has become greater.

But I look at the models, the vehicles and the cool suits and it is all awash in the same color scheme/camo. And this makes everything thing look plastic. Because the barrel of the giant rail gun blends right into the armor of the tank, which is the same color as the sensors, which looks like the light weight infantry armor, which looks like the badass mechs... I would love to someday field an army, but I would have to do something with the standard paint schemes.

And anybody that needs to berate a new army because they can't beat them is a tosser.

Did you play 2nd edition? THAT was cartoonish... Of course Tau weren't present back then, but even if they had been, they'd have been the least cartoony army.

I do wish they'd display more sept colors. Okay, GW, we get it. Tau of the planet T'au are desert colored... Now give the other 9/10ths of the race some face time.

 Jancoran wrote:
Wanna hear something crazy? a pair of whirlwinds would not be a bad start.

I know. I know. But have you tried it yet? Just give it a shot. hard not to get your points out of them. Can't say it'll never happen but...

I have tried, but their life expectancy is way too short against Tau. They are just too big and cannot be hidden. TFC is so much better, but unavailable to BA. I should get two more drop pods and drop suicide Sternguard + Dreadnought on them, but bubble wrapping is just way too easy.

I suppose it never occurs to GW what gamers can come up with.

Dropping terminators and drop pods can be countered by a lot of bubble wrap... the bubble wrap can be countered by things like thunderfire cannons/whirlwinds.... the lists that have a lot of bubble wrap will have a lot less big scary guns.

The lists that have a lot of big scary Tau Guns and a lot of bubblewrap? Then we're at big points and you should have some big guns of your own as well.

If you failed to bring big guns... that's your problem.
If you failed to bring anything to threaten them up close (i.e. fast/scouted up/infiltrating/in their face assault capable units that can reach en-mass by turn 2; then you are bringing the wrong assault units) On the other hand, if you want to play gunline vs gunline vs one of the best gunline armies with a less good gunline army then I dunno what to tell you.

The mystical Tau powers that seem to be problematic for people seem to be that they got high powered guns (so does a lot of people)

They are accurate ( because of markerlights)
They ignore cover ( because of markerlights)
They have a lot of interceptor/skyfire - Interceptor doesn't get benefits of markerlights (in general. I think the only thing that can fire interceptor markerlights is one of the special commander suits from forgeworld). They also cost a decent amount for skyfire which means less overall volume of fire. Interceptor will not ignore your cover, will be generally at BS 3 so you'll be essentially trolled cause your opponent can roll 4's decently well. Also will need LOS so deep strike accordingly.

Markerlights are generally fairly squishy and vulnerable to things like thunder fire cannons/colossus siege tanks/flamers/heavy bolters/vector strike even. (AP4 heavy bolters for example are good vs most things with a markerlight)

You want to bring shooting that can do things like a thunderfire or whirlwind and profit. Failure to do so is basically not playing to the new "meta" as it were. Most everyone cept nids can ally with someone that can bring that kind of firepower to a list as allies. Even nids have biovores actually so they ust need to change up the lists a little bit and frankly Psychic nids do quite well vs Tau so it's not that big a problem. Telepathy spam is insanely effective at getting some puppetmaster/hallucination rolls and then you can use the guns against the Tau. It's called adapting your tactics. (from SM perspective, see your own individual army codex for various other fun counter options)