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In Dawn of War II, the attacking Hive Fleet is sporting Leviathan's color, your attempt at denying this discredits your already spurious argument. Try harder.

Yeah I'm now eating my words for that one. But it wasn't the whole Hive, and I believe During DoW2 that whole tendril was wiped out.

 kinratha wrote:

In Dawn of War II, the attacking Hive Fleet is sporting Leviathan's color, your attempt at denying this discredits your already spurious argument. Try harder.

Yeah I'm now eating my words for that one. But it wasn't the whole Hive, and I believe During DoW2 that whole tendril was wiped out.

You can still find it ten years later in Retribution, some of it still Leviathan colors, the rest now magically changed to Behemoth colors...somehow...

Warp storms.

I'm telling you, GW always, no, ALWAYS, uses warp storms.

Whichever side "wins", the sector will be blocked off by warp storms, and only small trickles will escape, causing constant skirmishing, but no big, epoch-ending, setting-ending threat being released on the galactic stage.

You just wait and see!

(No, I'm not being very serious here )

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
Warp storms.

I'm telling you, GW always, no, ALWAYS, uses warp storms.

Whichever side "wins", the sector will be blocked off by warp storms, and only small trickles will escape, causing constant skirmishing, but no big, epoch-ending, setting-ending threat being released on the galactic stage.

You just wait and see!

(No, I'm not being very serious here )

And the truth is sadly, you're right. GW's licensed IPs get their own "pocket universe" to play around in, and only once in a blue moon does something like the Blood Ravens get canonized.

Why are we talking about the IOM when this is supposed to be about the Octarius war? Anyway, both the orks and the nids have fleets, the nids birth their bio-ships at a pretty decent rate. Orks though, get most of their ships from space hulks, their main travel ship, but quoted from the ork codex pg 18

"Though roks are incapable of travelling through the warp, any system containing orks will quickly accumulate a growing number of roks. This is because the orks 'build' them at a prodigious rate, often by breaking off large chunks of space hulk or welding space debris onto meteors."

Which pretty much means that in the end, if there is space debris from anywhere, orks can and will build a fleet of roks from any asteroid lying about. Also, if the IOM could have extermiantaus the Octarius system before the war, why didn't they? I believe that the real reason is because it would take to much resources to break through the ork ships that were in the Octarius system before the war. People keep saying this or that will happen, but if it has anything to do with the IOM, then I have my doubts. The IOM doesn't have the resources required to do anything big anymore. They are to strechted out to actually be on the offensive, transportation is to slow for a whole lot of reasons, and has alot of trouble. It has been stated time and again that the only thing the IOM can actually do is hold on. They have not been actively on the offensive, unless they have lost worlds before hand, in which case they scrambled for resources and still were on the defensive for a good long while. In the end the IOM doesn't have a good enough base to actually be on the offensive in multiple areas.
'
Oh, and why do people say that the Eldar and the IOM have a blockade togther? according to the 5th editon sm codex, pg 49 under famous battles, very last section, it quotes

"Imperial worlds in the galactic south are caught in the crossfire between Saim Hann Eldar and the Orks of Octavius. The Raven Guard, White Scars and Salamanders Chapters unite to defend the embattled planets from the aliens."

From the sound of that, there isn't even a blockade around the Octarius sector, where did people get that from? And sense it didn't even mention the nids, but at the end of the quote said "To defend the embattled planets from the aliens" Which means that the Eldar and IOM are fighting each other, and the orks...

The IOM doesn't have the resources required to do anything big anymore. They are to strechted out to actually be on the offensive, transportation is to slow for a whole lot of reasons, and has alot of trouble. It has been stated time and again that the only thing the IOM can actually do is hold on. They have not been actively on the offensive, unless they have lost worlds before hand, in which case they scrambled for resources and still were on the defensive for a good long while. In the end the IOM doesn't have a good enough base to actually be on the offensive in multiple areas.

What actually happens is that GW is perfectly happy with things frozen as they are. This is why the story never, ever progresses in any meaningful way and nothing ever really changes. 40K is a Setting, not a Story.

The Imperium, itself, does not lack for resources. Getting resources from Point A to Point B, however, is a gamble.

 Psienesis wrote:

The IOM doesn't have the resources required to do anything big anymore. They are to strechted out to actually be on the offensive, transportation is to slow for a whole lot of reasons, and has alot of trouble. It has been stated time and again that the only thing the IOM can actually do is hold on. They have not been actively on the offensive, unless they have lost worlds before hand, in which case they scrambled for resources and still were on the defensive for a good long while. In the end the IOM doesn't have a good enough base to actually be on the offensive in multiple areas.

What actually happens is that GW is perfectly happy with things frozen as they are. This is why the story never, ever progresses in any meaningful way and nothing ever really changes. 40K is a Setting, not a Story.

The Imperium, itself, does not lack for resources. Getting resources from Point A to Point B, however, is a gamble.

Star Wars advanced as a setting (I think they're doing some 100 years after Yavin thingy). For the better or for worse? Eh...

Because Star Wars has a defined "canon" and a big stack of documents that dictates what is and is not "true" in the Star Wars universe. 40K lacks any such coherent doctrine.

Remember, Octarius is just a subsector within the Ultima Segmentum. Both sides are throwing amazing numbers into the conflict but it is still a subsector. Kryptman gambled that they might wipe each other out - a failed gambit. However the Imperium still see neither side as a major threat (at this point). Otherwise, it would be fluff/army heaven for the GW fluff writers
If its that much of a threat, why arent more SMs/IG mobilised to squash it?
Letting them fight it out is possibly preferable:
A. Orks win - its a huge Waaagh and the Imperium fight it like all the others
B. Nids win - however - its just a tendril of a bigger Hive Fleet, that can be dealt with (relatively locally).

The Ultima Segmentum is one of the divisions of the Galaxy known as Segmentums of the Imperium and is by far the largest. It is located to the east of Holy Terra, and its Segmentum Fortress is located at Kar Duniash.[1] Notably it contains the Ultramarines empire of Ultramar, the Tau Empire, and along its border is the Eastern Fringe.

Kryptman slowed down the Nid advance considerably but the grim fact reamins that only by two factions joining forces can a Nid fleet be beaten. For example, Hive Fleet Gorgon could not have been beaten if not for the fact that the Imperials joined the Tau and the Nids couldn't adapt quick enough to deal with two completely different threats. The Tau were long ranged enough to handle Medium range tragets outside the range of Lasguns. Basilisks were capable of destroying anything that sat behind the pulse rifle range. And hundreds upon hundreds of Lasguns and heavy bolters dealt with the gribblies at close rnage with Rail Guns to tackle the handful of MCs

And yes, I know about Maccragge and Ichar IV and Iyanden, but they are covered by plot armour and hive fleets prior to Gorgon.




In the Octarius war only te Nids can win. Hive Fleet Leviathan hasn't even fully entered the galaxy. The Orks 2 biggest weapons ae useless against the Nids. Their numbers are equal of less than Nid numbers. Nids can devour the spores to stop Ork reinforcements, while Orks can't get rid of bodies short of Shokk Attack Gunning them into the warp, and we know how unpredictable they are.

Secondly, their nost powerful weapon could soon be useless. Their psychic field. Once the Hive Mind catches on, it simply has to flood the battlefield with Synapse creatures. Their Shadow in the Warp disrupts the psychic field and no matter what the Orks believe, Laws of physics come into effect. Guns jam, Gargants topple and Orks get munched. And the Nids now have a universal counter to Orks. Plus, cutting off the psychic field and hence the beacon that draws other orks, the Nids can stop nearby orks flocking to the area.

 Deadshot wrote:

And yes, I know about Maccragge and Ichar IV and Iyanden, but they are covered by plot armour and hive fleets prior to Gorgon.

Lyanden required the Imperium and vice-versa, too, albeit indirectly and without either realizing it. Pretty sure it's stated that if either Lyanden or the Imperium (I forget the location) lost their respective battles, the other would have been doomed as well.

 illuknisaa wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Good job there Kryptmann.

Exterminatus. Problem solved.

The Imperium and the Eldar already have a blockade set-up around the planets embroiled in the war. It'll be pretty lulzy when the Imperium sends a couple rofl-torpedos at the planets and instantly annihilates these massive bio-mass collections the Tyranids have been creating.

First of all there not a single evidence that orks have ever lost a battle, war or a campaing (aka waaagh). Why would orks lose?

That's bullgak, see Valhalla, the Grax Waaagh that was defeated in the IG codex and others

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

And yes, I know about Maccragge and Ichar IV and Iyanden, but they are covered by plot armour and hive fleets prior to Gorgon.

Lyanden required the Imperium and vice-versa, too, albeit indirectly and without either realizing it. Pretty sure it's stated that if either Lyanden or the Imperium (I forget the location) lost their respective battles, the other would have been doomed as well.

So there is my point proven.It took 2 factions to beat Kraken at Iyanden and Ichar IV to win.

Behemoth was the exception as it was the first Hive Fleet, and it used up more biomass that it gain. Plus, Ultramarines were never going to lose that fight. Plot armour.

 Deadshot wrote:
Kryptman slowed down the Nid advance considerably but the grim fact reamins that only by two factions joining forces can a Nid fleet be beaten. For example, Hive Fleet Gorgon could not have been beaten if not for the fact that the Imperials joined the Tau and the Nids couldn't adapt quick enough to deal with two completely different threats. The Tau were long ranged enough to handle Medium range tragets outside the range of Lasguns. Basilisks were capable of destroying anything that sat behind the pulse rifle range. And hundreds upon hundreds of Lasguns and heavy bolters dealt with the gribblies at close rnage with Rail Guns to tackle the handful of MCs

And yes, I know about Maccragge and Ichar IV and Iyanden, but they are covered by plot armour and hive fleets prior to Gorgon.




In the Octarius war only te Nids can win. Hive Fleet Leviathan hasn't even fully entered the galaxy. The Orks 2 biggest weapons ae useless against the Nids. Their numbers are equal of less than Nid numbers. Nids can devour the spores to stop Ork reinforcements, while Orks can't get rid of bodies short of Shokk Attack Gunning them into the warp, and we know how unpredictable they are.

Secondly, their nost powerful weapon could soon be useless. Their psychic field. Once the Hive Mind catches on, it simply has to flood the battlefield with Synapse creatures. Their Shadow in the Warp disrupts the psychic field and no matter what the Orks believe, Laws of physics come into effect. Guns jam, Gargants topple and Orks get munched. And the Nids now have a universal counter to Orks. Plus, cutting off the psychic field and hence the beacon that draws other orks, the Nids can stop nearby orks flocking to the area.

Actually you are wrong. It specifies in the ork codex that more and more irks are flocikning in the the war, hence they still have there phyic field. Ork spores also would literally spread everywhere behind ork lines aswell so the can reproduce

 Bobthehero wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Good job there Kryptmann.

Exterminatus. Problem solved.

The Imperium and the Eldar already have a blockade set-up around the planets embroiled in the war. It'll be pretty lulzy when the Imperium sends a couple rofl-torpedos at the planets and instantly annihilates these massive bio-mass collections the Tyranids have been creating.

First of all there not a single evidence that orks have ever lost a battle, war or a campaing (aka waaagh). Why would orks lose?

That's bullgak, see Valhalla, the Grax Waaagh that was defeated in the IG codex and others

Orkes are never beats! If we win, we win. If we die, we deado it don't cpunt as beats! If we run, it don't counts as beat either cuz we can just come back fer anuva go! So orkes are neva beats!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 40kSpartan wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Kryptman slowed down the Nid advance considerably but the grim fact reamins that only by two factions joining forces can a Nid fleet be beaten. For example, Hive Fleet Gorgon could not have been beaten if not for the fact that the Imperials joined the Tau and the Nids couldn't adapt quick enough to deal with two completely different threats. The Tau were long ranged enough to handle Medium range tragets outside the range of Lasguns. Basilisks were capable of destroying anything that sat behind the pulse rifle range. And hundreds upon hundreds of Lasguns and heavy bolters dealt with the gribblies at close rnage with Rail Guns to tackle the handful of MCs

And yes, I know about Maccragge and Ichar IV and Iyanden, but they are covered by plot armour and hive fleets prior to Gorgon.




In the Octarius war only te Nids can win. Hive Fleet Leviathan hasn't even fully entered the galaxy. The Orks 2 biggest weapons ae useless against the Nids. Their numbers are equal of less than Nid numbers. Nids can devour the spores to stop Ork reinforcements, while Orks can't get rid of bodies short of Shokk Attack Gunning them into the warp, and we know how unpredictable they are.

Secondly, their nost powerful weapon could soon be useless. Their psychic field. Once the Hive Mind catches on, it simply has to flood the battlefield with Synapse creatures. Their Shadow in the Warp disrupts the psychic field and no matter what the Orks believe, Laws of physics come into effect. Guns jam, Gargants topple and Orks get munched. And the Nids now have a universal counter to Orks. Plus, cutting off the psychic field and hence the beacon that draws other orks, the Nids can stop nearby orks flocking to the area.

Actually you are wrong. It specifies in the ork codex that more and more irks are flocikning in the the war, hence they still have there phyic field. Ork spores also would literally spread everywhere behind ork lines aswell so the can reproduce

You didn't read my post proper. I said ONCE THE HIVE MIND CATCHES ON it can stop the field, or at least isolate it, by using a high number or synapse creatures for the Shadow in the Warp. And yes, there will be some spores behind ork lines thatreproduce, but any landing within jaw's grasp are gone. And the Nids will keep pushing the Orks back. As someone previously stated, its a war of evolution and the Nids cannot be out-evolved.

The shadow of the warp and anny warp related fluff gets trown out the window whenn it suits the writers.

Behemoth got defeated because a Fleet traveld true the warp arriving at the exact right place at the exact right time right next to the hive fleet, despite the shadow in the warp and the inherent difficulties with warp travel.

Into a asteroid belt aswell without hitting those.

Hive Fleets get defeated by bad writing nothing else, and unless they change the Nids fluff its all they will ever get beaten by.

The downfall of Behemoth was it's recklessness and ignorance. The Hive Mind threw everything in before it knew what it was dealing with and didn't expect the tactics of Calgar, so it had to use the Swarmlord to outmaneuver. It then wasn't expecting bravery of Aloysius to face a foe so far out of his league it wasn't even funny. It also didn't count on Calgar's resilience to deny treatment and fight on. It obviously never encountered heroism and tenacity before. By then it had fully commited its ground forces and was using simply siege tactics that were successful in previous human engagements. More bodies than bullets.

It didn't think about getting back its dead and dying to replenish supplies. With a lot of its fleet occupied with Calgar's it limited what spawning ability they did have. Dominus Astra taking out most of their ships in a suicide bombing just finished it off. By that time the Hive Mind realised the tenacity of the Ultramarines was too much for its current forces, and with no immediate method of adapting or reinforcing, because it hadn't bothered earlier, it was now simply a matter of kill them before they kill you. Which the Nids won with only a handful of bugs to spare, but they managed to wipe outhe 1st Company.

__________________

Celebrating 8000 posts! Woohoo!
_____________________

Amoras wrote:
The shadow of the warp and anny warp related fluff gets trown out the window whenn it suits the writers.

Behemoth got defeated because a Fleet traveld true the warp arriving at the exact right place at the exact right time right next to the hive fleet, despite the shadow in the warp and the inherent difficulties with warp travel.

Into a asteroid belt aswell without hitting those.

Hive Fleets get defeated by bad writing nothing else, and unless they change the Nids fluff its all they will ever get beaten by.

You could say the same of the corruptive nature of chaos, the advanced technology of the necrons, the foresight of the eldar, the preference for long range combined arms of the tau, the Imperium's numbers, and the Ork's gestalt field.

 Deadshot wrote:



You didn't read my post proper. I said ONCE THE HIVE MIND CATCHES ON it can stop the field, or at least isolate it, by using a high number or synapse creatures for the Shadow in the Warp. And yes, there will be some spores behind ork lines thatreproduce, but any landing within jaw's grasp are gone. And the Nids will keep pushing the Orks back. As someone previously stated, its a war of evolution and the Nids cannot be out-evolved.

You are assuming that hive mind is stronger than orks phyche. (all) Orks can bend the laws of physics. (some) Bugs can block radio communication.

The evolving argument is pretty silly. If nids could counter evolve to orks they would have already done it. Genestealers can't inflitrate ork communities as they would get instantly spotted and hybrids are unrealiable at best.

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:



You didn't read my post proper. I said ONCE THE HIVE MIND CATCHES ON it can stop the field, or at least isolate it, by using a high number or synapse creatures for the Shadow in the Warp. And yes, there will be some spores behind ork lines thatreproduce, but any landing within jaw's grasp are gone. And the Nids will keep pushing the Orks back. As someone previously stated, its a war of evolution and the Nids cannot be out-evolved.

You are assuming that hive mind is stronger than orks phyche. (all) Orks can bend the laws of physics. (some) Bugs can block radio communication.

The evolving argument is pretty silly. If nids could counter evolve to orks they would have already done it. Genestealers can't inflitrate ork communities as they would get instantly spotted and hybrids are unrealiable at best.

Incorrect. The very fact Genestealers did infest and infiltrate and spread across Octarius, and reproduce in enough numbers to draw Hive Fleet Leviathan disproves your mistaken assertion (all as per last 2 Tyranid Codices). The very fact the genestealers multiplied means Orks CAN and HAVE been subverted already, and are not immune to it.

Also you are wrong on the blocking of communication. It is not individual Tyranids that block communication but the gestalt of the Tyranids manifest in the Shadow in the Warp that blocks communication, and it is psychic not radio communication.

Finally, you are also incorrect on the Orks and physics. Just because one in-character piece about a Tech-Priest believing something about Orks does not make it actually true. Characters in the universe can hold fallible beliefs so just because one Tech-Priest could not figure out how Ork tech works, doesn't mean it doesn't. The examples of human Ork Hunters on Armageddon (from the Armageddon 3 campaign) being capable of using captured Ork guns also disproves the assertion about Ork tech.

Iracundus wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:



You didn't read my post proper. I said ONCE THE HIVE MIND CATCHES ON it can stop the field, or at least isolate it, by using a high number or synapse creatures for the Shadow in the Warp. And yes, there will be some spores behind ork lines thatreproduce, but any landing within jaw's grasp are gone. And the Nids will keep pushing the Orks back. As someone previously stated, its a war of evolution and the Nids cannot be out-evolved.

You are assuming that hive mind is stronger than orks phyche. (all) Orks can bend the laws of physics. (some) Bugs can block radio communication.

The evolving argument is pretty silly. If nids could counter evolve to orks they would have already done it. Genestealers can't inflitrate ork communities as they would get instantly spotted and hybrids are unrealiable at best.

Incorrect. The very fact Genestealers did infest and infiltrate and spread across Octarius, and reproduce in enough numbers to draw Hive Fleet Leviathan disproves your mistaken assertion (all as per last 2 Tyranid Codices). The very fact the genestealers multiplied means Orks CAN and HAVE been subverted already, and are not immune to it.

Also you are wrong on the blocking of communication. It is not individual Tyranids that block communication but the gestalt of the Tyranids manifest in the Shadow in the Warp that blocks communication, and it is psychic not radio communication.

Finally, you are also incorrect on the Orks and physics. Just because one in-character piece about a Tech-Priest believing something about Orks does not make it actually true. Characters in the universe can hold fallible beliefs so just because one Tech-Priest could not figure out how Ork tech works, doesn't mean it doesn't. The examples of human Ork Hunters on Armageddon (from the Armageddon 3 campaign) being capable of using captured Ork guns also disproves the assertion about Ork tech.

Genestealers can hide among human communities as high ranking member but that is impossible to do with orks. Ork always knows orks.

Old ones manifested orks from the warp essentially making orks realspace deamons. Deamons can bend the laws of physics. Orks can bend the laws of physics.

 illuknisaa wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:



You didn't read my post proper. I said ONCE THE HIVE MIND CATCHES ON it can stop the field, or at least isolate it, by using a high number or synapse creatures for the Shadow in the Warp. And yes, there will be some spores behind ork lines thatreproduce, but any landing within jaw's grasp are gone. And the Nids will keep pushing the Orks back. As someone previously stated, its a war of evolution and the Nids cannot be out-evolved.

You are assuming that hive mind is stronger than orks phyche. (all) Orks can bend the laws of physics. (some) Bugs can block radio communication.

The evolving argument is pretty silly. If nids could counter evolve to orks they would have already done it. Genestealers can't inflitrate ork communities as they would get instantly spotted and hybrids are unrealiable at best.

Incorrect. The very fact Genestealers did infest and infiltrate and spread across Octarius, and reproduce in enough numbers to draw Hive Fleet Leviathan disproves your mistaken assertion (all as per last 2 Tyranid Codices). The very fact the genestealers multiplied means Orks CAN and HAVE been subverted already, and are not immune to it.

Also you are wrong on the blocking of communication. It is not individual Tyranids that block communication but the gestalt of the Tyranids manifest in the Shadow in the Warp that blocks communication, and it is psychic not radio communication.

Finally, you are also incorrect on the Orks and physics. Just because one in-character piece about a Tech-Priest believing something about Orks does not make it actually true. Characters in the universe can hold fallible beliefs so just because one Tech-Priest could not figure out how Ork tech works, doesn't mean it doesn't. The examples of human Ork Hunters on Armageddon (from the Armageddon 3 campaign) being capable of using captured Ork guns also disproves the assertion about Ork tech.

Genestealers can hide among human communities as high ranking member but that is impossible to do with orks. Ork always knows orks.

Old ones manifested orks from the warp essentially making orks realspace deamons. Deamons can bend the laws of physics. Orks can bend the laws of physics.

Genestealers are documented in the last 2 Tyranid Codices as successfully infiltrating and multiplying. That means Orks were subverted. It is not impossible. It is entirely reasonable to think isolated Ork communities could fall under the sway of Genestealers and not be discovered for some time due to their isolation. You are arguing with what is published in GW Codex publications (p. 21, 4th ed. Tyranid Codex).

Orks are not daemons. Now you are just making stuff up. They are organic and can die and be dissected, showing them to be a hybrid of animal tissue with symbiotic algae. That is not daemonic. Orks do not bend physics.

If you are going to debate a topic, you need to get your facts straight first. Making up your own evidence or "facts" doesn't count.

And being within the vicinity of Tyranids disrupts the warp. So without proper access to the warp most of the Orks stuff wouldn't be as effective or entirely useless.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Good job there Kryptmann.

Exterminatus. Problem solved.

The Imperium and the Eldar already have a blockade set-up around the planets embroiled in the war. It'll be pretty lulzy when the Imperium sends a couple rofl-torpedos at the planets and instantly annihilates these massive bio-mass collections the Tyranids have been creating.

First of all there not a single evidence that orks have ever lost a battle, war or a campaing (aka waaagh). Why would orks lose?

That's bullgak, see Valhalla, the Grax Waaagh that was defeated in the IG codex and others

Orkes are never beats! If we win, we win. If we die, we deado it don't cpunt as beats! If we run, it don't counts as beat either cuz we can just come back fer anuva go! So orkes are neva beats!

I count the quote out, because its slowed Kinda like people write out Draigo fluff

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Good job there Kryptmann.

Exterminatus. Problem solved.

The Imperium and the Eldar already have a blockade set-up around the planets embroiled in the war. It'll be pretty lulzy when the Imperium sends a couple rofl-torpedos at the planets and instantly annihilates these massive bio-mass collections the Tyranids have been creating.

First of all there not a single evidence that orks have ever lost a battle, war or a campaing (aka waaagh). Why would orks lose?

That's bullgak, see Valhalla, the Grax Waaagh that was defeated in the IG codex and others

Orkes are never beats! If we win, we win. If we die, we deado it don't cpunt as beats! If we run, it don't counts as beat either cuz we can just come back fer anuva go! So orkes are neva beats!

I count the quote out, because its slowed Kinda like people write out Draigo fluff

It's Ork logic, if they can make a vehicle go faster just for being red or make an explosive more potent for just being yellow having an odd definition of victory is hardly the most "out there" thing.