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Kharn and a hundred berzerkers. That's the list at about 3k. Do you think they would be more effective rhinoed up in 10 man units, 6 troops and 3 Elite slots, or 5 units of 20 footslogging? If they can survive to get close, I think they would be pretty deadly.. but getting close with all the snooty armies.. any suggestions?

Just charge.

Footslogging with icon or land raiders. Leave the Rhinos at home unless you're running them empty with dirge caster.

Make sure to bring sufficient AA and add melta bombs for AV14.

Needs anti-turkey or the whole list will literally burn.

I love my Khorne Bezerkers and wish I could still spam them, but I normally just run one squad in a LR now with Kharn. Its hard to use them anywhere else besides a LR.

How are peoples experiences footslogging? Is it possible to all KB to be competitive in any manner?

Use them as normal CSM? It seems GW's goal is to feth Berzerkers with a mighty dong harder every codex release. They are pretty worthless now.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Use them as normal CSM? It seems GW's goal is to feth Berzerkers with a mighty dong harder every codex release. They are pretty worthless now.

Pretty much... I hate to agree.

I have had lots of sucess with MSU of CSM... and one unit of bezerkers in a raider so khorne doesn't curse my dice.

The units are only 75 points to sit on a objective, and/or move up and shoot some bolters. Not much, but these guys just chilling wins me the game.

minigun762 wrote:Footslogging with icon or land raiders. Leave the Rhinos at home unless you're running them empty with dirge caster.
Make sure to bring sufficient AA and add melta bombs for AV14.

ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:Needs anti-turkey or the whole list will literally burn.

Couldn't have put it better myself. But just so I can put SOMETHING...!! Land Raiders will of course give you added anti-tank, and twin-linking helps against flyers. Plus they'll protect your most important units against the Heldrake, which I don't believe has the means to hurt a Land Raider at all (citation needed, mind).

The only trouble is, you only get 3 Raiders per FOC and you can only squeeze 10 Berzerkers into each. So you'll still be footslogging most of your army.

Run Bloodletter allies, as they are cheaper and come with a 5++.
Berserkers are safe in the Raiders, so poor drakes suffer.

run huron in the list an use his trait to grant infiltrate, then heres the fun part. OUTFLANK THEM, having infiltrate also confers outflank if held in reserves, against hellturkys you can be trollike in your positioning, profiting from flyers 90 turns can if your opponent went first you can put them behind the drakes as they arive turn 2 proceeding, this forces him to do 1 of 2 things either hover and come at you loseing flyer benifits, or rush off the board to come in for a better attack run (ie you win)
60 bezekers makes a horrible mess of anything.
hope this is helpfull

Haha. 60 Bezerkers outflanking would be so fun!!

To stay mono-khorne, I run LR with Kharn/Zerkers, MSU of CSM for objectives, helldrakes, oblitz, bloodletter, hounds/hearld or thrister...

I want to run red-tide again! I have like 120 bezerkers in my army suitcases!! haha.

Run Kharn and his squad of 8 in a Raider with must take Dirge Caaster. Troop with Zerkers (Squads of 8). Get 1-2 Heldrakes and paint them blud and skullz. Add Rhinoes with Dirges for transport help. Run Termies or Chosen geared for CC with MoKfor elites. Or skip elites and rhinoes and add AoBF Khorne Prince with PA and wings. Add Bloodletters, and Skulltaker if you want to save on points, or go all out Bloodthirster.

Why would you ever outflank berzerkers? They can't get into close combat the turn they arrive, and they have a 1/3rd chance to show up on the wrong side and do NOTHING. Let's say they show up on turn 3, and on the right side. That's still turn 4 before you can actually get to swing a chain axe. If the game ends on turn 5, then it's very possible that they won't have actually killed anything, or will have just killed some pointless screener unit.

And that's if your opponent leaves anything near one of the edges of the board. It's plenty possible that they'll just back up a bit and leave the berzerkers with nothing to do.

If you're going to infiltrate them, then infiltrate them. Set up a guaranteed 2nd turn charge. If you're going to do that, though, you can take that 19pt. model and give it a 12 pt. upgrade to give it a power weapon, make it SIX TIMES more durable against Ap3 weapons, give it a 5++, and a twin-linked bolter that they can shoot on the turn they charge. And give them deepstrike, and the ability to take a land raider as a dedicated transport, and the ability to get a 4++ or FNP, along with real shooting options to compliment their assault, along with the option to give everyone a power fist, etc.

As for how to run berzerkers, I agree that in a land raider is probably the best idea, and that giving them rhinos is definitely the worst.

 Ailaros wrote:
Why would you ever outflank berzerkers? They can't get into close combat the turn they arrive, and they have a 1/3rd chance to show up on the wrong side and do NOTHING. Let's say they show up on turn 3, and on the right side. That's still turn 4 before you can actually get to swing a chain axe. If the game ends on turn 5, then it's very possible that they won't have actually killed anything, or will have just killed some pointless screener unit.

And that's if your opponent leaves anything near one of the edges of the board. It's plenty possible that they'll just back up a bit and leave the berzerkers with nothing to do.

If you're going to infiltrate them, then infiltrate them. Set up a guaranteed 2nd turn charge. If you're going to do that, though, you can take that 19pt. model and give it a 12 pt. upgrade to give it a power weapon, make it SIX TIMES more durable against Ap3 weapons, give it a 5++, and a twin-linked bolter that they can shoot on the turn they charge. And give them deepstrike, and the ability to take a land raider as a dedicated transport, and the ability to get a 4++ or FNP, along with real shooting options to compliment their assault, along with the option to give everyone a power fist, etc.

As for how to run berzerkers, I agree that in a land raider is probably the best idea, and that giving them rhinos is definitely the worst.

traditionaly you would be correct but when you tell your opponent your infitrating a CC unit they can easily set up their army to steer clear of it. you roll traits before deployemnt and if you use huron then you have to tell him what he does (unless your a jerk) this leaves you with one expensive squad never forfilling its battlefeld role, outflanking is a mess for your opponent as they can either steer clear of the sides and bunch to get hit by ordanace or your own hellturkyes, or get flank charged.
in my khorne list a bit of both happens as when the zerks outflank with raider zerkers comming from below i drive my oppenents forces into a corner and finish them with soul grinders mawcannons and helturky strikes (if you use a defiler here you are a terrible person, soulgrinders are cheper, tougher ,skyfire, and do the same things. sad realy the day of defilers is now so dead). i deepstrike bloodletters to mop up evasive targets that dont want to be caught.
also use spawn (i dont care) they are fast and cheap and very frigtening, keep em blank as khorne marks does nothin for them. remember khorne is a god of WAR not close combat, hence the BS5 bloodletters, so dont neglect shooty elements.

also garunteed 2nd turn charge is so much bunk. you have to set up 18 inches away or 12 if they cant draw line of sight (as if your opponent isnt going to use every bit of cover given to them) so from 18 inches away all or opponet has to do is move the doomed unit 6 inces bakward and then you never get them :(

You could always try a combination of both... infiltrate a very large, very scary unit of Berzerkers front and centre and as close as you can to multiple units. Make sure it has fists so that it's a threat to everything. Your opponent has a choice - leave units within charge range, or back away towards either edge and into threat range of your outflanking Land Raiders.

I can see a couple of possible issues, mind. If the units heading towards the flanks are dedicated anti-tank, those arriving Land Raiders may have problems - but that was always the case. If it's a small enough army then your opponent could get away with backing away towards their own table edge, though this only buys 2 extra turns at most and puts them at greater risk of falling back off the edge.

I prefer loading large numbers of bezerkers in a spartan assault tank or land raider. The spartan tank can carry up to 25 models and has better guns and can buy melta immunity and an additional HP all for 45 pts more, although with a 20 bezerker brick you will run a serious risk of wiping whatever you're charging immediately.

Take a load of rhinos and run them as a single wall towards the most shooty thing (with destroyer blades on them) and run the beserkers up behind them.

It's easier to defend against outflanking close combat units than infiltrating ones. And a turn 2 charge isn't difficult at all with infiltrating berzerkers. They deploy last, after your opponent has already put down targets for them to hack with chainswords.

Plus, you've got 12" of move + D6" of run + 2D6" charge range. That's an average of 22", or even better if you give them the banner that allows them to reroll charge distances. 22+" when you get to deploy 12-18" away. And get to put them directly across from your opponents' stuff.

Meanwhile, with outflanking, you are guaranteed to not make it into close combat until turn 3, for any reason. And there's a 1 in 3 chance that they'll show up later (especially if they've got the -1 reserve warlord trait, officer of the fleet, etc.). And you get to deal with interceptor fire. And you have to deal with a 1 in 3 chance to show up on the wrong side of the board.

SO many die roll liabilities from outflanking, and you're guaranteed to show up later, and your opponent can just deploy to avoid it.

And you don't even get to avoid getting shot at before you make it in, either.

 Kain wrote:
I prefer loading large numbersnof bezerkers in a spartan assault tank or land raider. The spartan tank can carry up to 25 models and has better guns and can buy melta immunity and an additional HP all for 45 pts more, although with a 20 bezerker brick you will run a serious risk of wiping whatever you're charging immediately.

the spartan is a beast I agree. 20 Meq or 10 Teq + character that can actually be delivered into combat proves to be fun for non compeitive games.

 Ailaros wrote:
It's easier to defend against outflanking close combat units than infiltrating ones. And a turn 2 charge isn't difficult at all with infiltrating berzerkers. They deploy last, after your opponent has already put down targets for them to hack with chainswords.

Plus, you've got 12" of move + D6" of run + 2D6" charge range. That's an average of 22", or even better if you give them the banner that allows them to reroll charge distances. 22+" when you get to deploy 12-18" away. And get to put them directly across from your opponents' stuff.

Meanwhile, with outflanking, you are guaranteed to not make it into close combat until turn 3, for any reason. And there's a 1 in 3 chance that they'll show up later (especially if they've got the -1 reserve warlord trait, officer of the fleet, etc.). And you get to deal with interceptor fire. And you have to deal with a 1 in 3 chance to show up on the wrong side of the board.

SO many die roll liabilities from outflanking, and you're guaranteed to show up later, and your opponent can just deploy to avoid it.

And you don't even get to avoid getting shot at before you make it in, either.

You cant charge after running so your threat range maximum is 18 inches so unless you can reliably roll 2 sixes or your opponent is mad enough to try and move closer to your zerkers you wont get that 2nd turn charge and will exposed yourself to flyer attacks as they arive this turn as well and 2 turns of shooting, outflanking can get you much closer with less of a risk of being shot to red confetti. CC armies ruin shooting armies when everything goes well as the primary objective is to move as fast as possible with as little casulties as possible.

Infiltrate has a disadvatage, you can get too close too quick, bezerkers have rage, and furious charge so if you want to grind whatever you like into pulp YOU need the charge, if bezekers get charged they dont do well as thier leadership is fairly bad so couterattack often doesn't work. against tau this will never happen but savy necron and marine players can take advatage of this, and orks and nids will flatten them without thinking.

With outflank you arrive later when cc threats are futher up the board lookin to chop things, this allows your zerkers to either win existing combats by charging tarpitted enemies, frighten backfeild artilery or trap an enemy between 2 fronts. however you are restricted to the sides of the boards which sucks if your using dawn of war deployment so in that case infiltrating is a better idea

No battle plan survives contact with an enemy so i prefer to outflank rather then ifnfiltate as it gives you more options.

also if you curious over the raider vs rhino dispute i use small amounts of both along side spawn and faster CC units with the majoroty of the army footslogging behind, the mobile units tie up/divert fire leaving the bulk of my forces unscathed

The math was for a 2-turn charge.

And it's not exactly difficult to charge a squad of berzerkers who outflanked, denying them getting the charge in.

And showing up late isn't a bonus. Ignoring the fact that it makes them do less damage, especially in the extra-critical first two turns, you have to deal with the fact that you've got less of your army on the table as well, which means your berzerkers have less support when they outflank.

And outflanking only helps with synergy if you have other things outflanking, which it's somewhat unlikely that you have, while infiltrating synergizes with everything, as it forces your opponents to spend their one turn of shooting either knocking out your heavy hitters, or killing off berzerkers before they're in close combat the next turn. It also works better with things like bikes and spawn (and terminators, and maulerfiends, and obliterators, and winged princes) by presenting a lot of threats at the same mid-field range early on.

Meanwhile, with outflanking, you are guaranteed to not make it into close combat until turn 3, for any reason. And there's a 1 in 3 chance that they'll show up later (especially if they've got the -1 reserve warlord trait, officer of the fleet, etc.). And you get to deal with interceptor fire. And you have to deal with a 1 in 3 chance to show up on the wrong side of the board.

SO many die roll liabilities from outflanking, and you're guaranteed to show up later, and your opponent can just deploy to avoid it.

I generally don't hit the table without at least 20 berserkeres. How I arrange them is honestly pretty random. Sometimes having that 2nd champion is handy, sometimes having a horde of 20 + 'khorneaddon' + kharne in a spartan is just... hilarious.
Another good way to run them is with an undivided sorceror attached, hopefully rolling endurance and/or invisibility. Imagine 20 FNP khorne berserkers, possibly with stealth/shrouded?!?

I'll have to try this 'red tide' idea here soon, as I simply LOVE khorne berserkers. They always do their job, which is either soak fire & killing things, or just killing things. Thankfully i''m the only chaos player in my group, so the only thing I really need to worry about are DWK and battle/demolisher cannons. And that 15 pts for the banner in larger groups is WAY better than it looks. +1 combat res, reroll charge range, and gives FC to any IC attached.

at 19pts per model good as that is, its a little expensive to use as a fire magnet.

i know everyone would love zekers to be cheaper but in your honest opinion do you think they are reasonably priced?

13pt gets you marine with cc weapon
+
2pts for mark of khorne

Which means that the fearless and furious charge costs you 4 points. i only bring this up as the weird way the codex is made alows you to possibly do the same thing cheaper on larger basic marine squads, and in basic marine squads you can take flamers...point made. in small units of 10 zerkers are cheaper but were talking about red tide lists

 Blackskull wrote:
at 19pts per model good as that is, its a little expensive to use as a fire magnet.

i know everyone would love zekers to be cheaper but in your honest opinion do you think they are reasonably priced?

13pt gets you marine with cc weapon
+
2pts for mark of khorne

Which means that the fearless and furious charge costs you 4 points. i only bring this up as the weird way the codex is made alows you to possibly do the same thing cheaper on larger basic marine squads, and in basic marine squads you can take flamers...point made. in small units of 10 zerkers are cheaper but were talking about red tide lists

The zerkers also have WS5 which helps.

KB inflitrating paired with Allies for speed and oblitz/drakes for support fire is a nasty balanced list. Always get a couple MSU of CSM/Cultist for objective. KB are too good for objectives unless there are in the enemies deployment zone.

Yeah, that math is a little trickier than that.

Berzerkers have +1WS, as mentioned, but they also have access to both fearless AND furious charge / reroll charge distance, while CSM have to choose one or the other. They also have access to an upgrade that makes them 100% killier against Sv4+ and 50% killier against Sv5+.

So, 335 points buys you 20 CSM with BP+CCW, MoK and IoV, which compares to 16 berzerkers with BP, 7 chainaxes, MoK, and "IoV".

In a hypothetical perfect situation matchup against T3 5++ (which, lets be honest, is pretty much the prime target type for both squads), the CSM are killing off 23.6 on the charge, while the berzerkers are killing 28.4. If you're willing to crank down the durability a bit more, those 337 points can be used to buy 15 berzerkers with an icon of wrath and 9 chainaxes which kills 29.2.

In this case, the berzerkers do 20% more damage for their points, and they're much more likely to get into close combat on the turn you charge. Plus, with the whole squad at S5 on the charge, they're even better against MEq, vehicles, and monstrous creatures.

So, ironically, what is good about regular CSM is that you don't have to spend as many points on them, but the benefit of berzerkers is that you CAN spend a lot of points on them.

The one thing you could easily note is that the CSM do have more durability, but that's actually not as much of a thing as presented. After all, the berzerkers only have 75-80% as many dudes, but they do ~20% more damage when they get there. To put it another way, each berzerker is so much better that you don't need to arrive with as many of them to do the same job. Starting out with fewer and losing relatively more gets balanced out by that mattering less.

It then gets re-muddled of course, when you consider that regular CSM can take special weapons, and that berzerkers can't have their fearless sniped away, and have WS5, so there is a case to be made for both of them. Also, if the point is a red tide, then you're going to have to have to put a bit more emphasis on the durability due to the weaknesses of foot lists, but if you use Huron to infiltrate them, well, then you don't have to quite so much.

I hate to say it, but the only real problem with zerkers is how crappy rhinos are now. They underperformed in 5th, but with rhinos the way they are now they are just hosed. If you can get them to the target they WILL kill it. But have fun doing that. Make sure you take advantage of every pistol shot you can, and bring a dirge caster. To be honest, I wonder if mine would work better if they weren't so bright red. It seems to make everything a target.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, that math is a little trickier than that.

Berzerkers have +1WS, as mentioned, but they also have access to both fearless AND furious charge / reroll charge distance, while CSM have to choose one or the other. They also have access to an upgrade that makes them 100% killier against Sv4+ and 50% killier against Sv5+.

So, 335 points buys you 20 CSM with BP+CCW, MoK and IoV, which compares to 16 berzerkers with BP, 7 chainaxes, MoK, and "IoV".

In a hypothetical perfect situation matchup against T3 5++ (which, lets be honest, is pretty much the prime target type for both squads), the CSM are killing off 23.6 on the charge, while the berzerkers are killing 28.4. If you're willing to crank down the durability a bit more, those 337 points can be used to buy 15 berzerkers with an icon of wrath and 9 chainaxes which kills 29.2.

In this case, the berzerkers do 20% more damage for their points, and they're much more likely to get into close combat on the turn you charge. Plus, with the whole squad at S5 on the charge, they're even better against MEq, vehicles, and monstrous creatures.

So, ironically, what is good about regular CSM is that you don't have to spend as many points on them, but the benefit of berzerkers is that you CAN spend a lot of points on them.

The one thing you could easily note is that the CSM do have more durability, but that's actually not as much of a thing as presented. After all, the berzerkers only have 75-80% as many dudes, but they do ~20% more damage when they get there. To put it another way, each berzerker is so much better that you don't need to arrive with as many of them to do the same job. Starting out with fewer and losing relatively more gets balanced out by that mattering less.

It then gets re-muddled of course, when you consider that regular CSM can take special weapons, and that berzerkers can't have their fearless sniped away, and have WS5, so there is a case to be made for both of them. Also, if the point is a red tide, then you're going to have to have to put a bit more emphasis on the durability due to the weaknesses of foot lists, but if you use Huron to infiltrate them, well, then you don't have to quite so much.

So what's your opinions of a kitted out 20 Zerker party in a Spartan Assault tank?

Well that is the best way to run them, but my FLGS and many others don't allow Spartan Assault Tank.

Outside of a Spartan, I've found 2 squads of 20 work just swimmingly against pretty much anything. Against loyalists take VotLW, and against most xenos take chainaxes.
Points wise, 20 strong group costs 40 points less than 10 in a LR, so you're getting more dudes right off. Plus, everyone always down plays the value of 3+ save. Typically you get statements such as "omg plasma will kill the WHOLE squad in like 2 turns"
If your opponent has enough plasma guns/cannons/pisols to kill 20 PA bodies in 2 turns... well... holy crap. ANY meq/teq army is totally boned against that type of firepower. I think only IG have the ability to field THAT many plasma weapons, and tbh they'll be killing 1/6 of their plasma gunners each time they fire. If your opponent has battlecannons.. yeah you're boned, because battlecannons kill pretty much everything.

Every codex that comes out korne berserkers get worse and worse. The way I played them was a squad of nine in a landraider with Kharne. Only way to deliver them but cost a lot of points for so-so close combat. Kharne kinda makes up for it but still not the greatest.