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 Aleph-Sama wrote:
I personally think that the sniper special rule should increase the BS of the firer by 1. Just a fluff thing. I know that in 3rd edition, sniper rifles always hit on a 2+ which makes sense, considering that you're typically shooting a high velocity round at center of mass, instead of firing "in a general that way direction"

Definitely agree that snipers need something to make them better. Even wounding on a 3+ instead of 4 might do it, or keep the wounding the same but give all snipers the rule that Eldar Long Rifles used to have (any to hit roll of 6 counted as AP1).

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 Aleph-Sama wrote:
I personally think that the sniper special rule should increase the BS of the firer by 1. Just a fluff thing. I know that in 3rd edition, sniper rifles always hit on a 2+ which makes sense, considering that you're typically shooting a high velocity round at center of mass, instead of firing "in a general that way direction"

Definitely agree that snipers need something to make them better. Even wounding on a 3+ instead of 4 might do it, or keep the wounding the same but give all snipers the rule that Eldar Long Rifles used to have (any to hit roll of 6 counted as AP1).

Which would do what exactly?
They're already auto-wounding on a 4+, with Rending (which makes it AP2, and Str3+6+D3 to pen armour) and Pinning.
Making count as Twin-Linked if the unit didn't move or something like that would be fun though.

 Ovion wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 Aleph-Sama wrote:
I personally think that the sniper special rule should increase the BS of the firer by 1. Just a fluff thing. I know that in 3rd edition, sniper rifles always hit on a 2+ which makes sense, considering that you're typically shooting a high velocity round at center of mass, instead of firing "in a general that way direction"

Definitely agree that snipers need something to make them better. Even wounding on a 3+ instead of 4 might do it, or keep the wounding the same but give all snipers the rule that Eldar Long Rifles used to have (any to hit roll of 6 counted as AP1).

Which would do what exactly?
They're already auto-wounding on a 4+, with Rending (which makes it AP2, and Str3+6+D3 to pen armour) and Pinning.
Making count as Twin-Linked if the unit didn't move or something like that would be fun though.

That rule is in addition to Rending. It just feels like a sniper rifle is not very good at doing what it's supposed to, which is killing a single model. Barrage weapons are better snipers than sniper rifles, which doesn't seem right. Another thing that could be done for sniper rifles is either no LoS!, or LoS! is at a minus one or two.

If I had to pick a rule to change, I'd add something allowing units to fire into combat.

In the Grim Dark Future, every single commander is to noble to stoop to something as chivalrous as shooting his own men.

Gaunts are too precious to the Tryanid swarm to risk lobbing spore mines or venom cannon shells into combat.

And Grey Terminators are far to fragile to risk, Inquisitoral henchmen accidentally shooting them with a las gun.

That massive Ork Dreadnought tearing apart poor guardsmen? Cant shoot there with your sluggas boys, it'd be positively un-orky.

You do know that sniper rifles get precision shot rule?

Personally the improvement to sniper rifles I'd like to see, is a -1 to the pinning test for every wound caused after the first.
For example.
Cause one wound, test as normal
two wounds, -1,
three wounds, -2

They should be more capable at unit suppression.

Let Tyranids have allies.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
One other thing I thought of: remove random psychic powers and just give them all appropriate point costs.

Oh, I'd LOVE that one. On the other hand, that would break some gaming lists.
Imagine a terminator-Librarian with Hammernators and Lysander inside a Land Raider. Librarian successfully rolls a psychic test with Invisibility. That steel box of hate now has a 3+ cover save on OPEN GROUND.

One single rule? Drop the whole "you lose if you have no units on the table at the end of a game turn".

My vote is a return to "to hit" modifiers for cover, rather than cover saves, as it stands now, cover does next to nothing against torrent fire, and is largely negated if you're an MEQ or TEQ.

The old 2nd edition -1 for soft cover and -2 for hard cover just felt more natural.

 Enigma wrote:
Let cover modify to hit instead of granting a save...

I know of at least two other games that do this, and it makes so much sense.

only one save is kind of lame, and i understand a space marine hitting the deck is going to be hard to hit, however even if you hit it, there is still the armor to deal with.

i could see this as:
-1 bs for every +1 for cover saves, but also have other balancing items that reduce cover save effectveness, like true LOS, height advantage, if the opposing model moves or shoots, it loses a hit modifier granted by camoflauge


Automatically Appended Next Post:

welshhoppo wrote:
Let Tyranids have allies.

so a necron/ hive tyrant fistbump? nah.. makes no sense, I would be happy with making them better. Think an "endless assault" rule, where any troops choice unit can be removed from the board, and then come on the board from a table edge as a fresh full strength unit.

Vehicles are just like 5th ed...

 Kain wrote:
So a game with a (well four or five actually) god of hitting things in close combat should punish close combat as much as possible?

Better tell Khorne to drop the axe and pick up a gun then.

How about a gun that shoots chain axes?

 chrisrawr wrote:
"All dice rolls are replaced by statistical averages. Partial wounds can happen, and must be kept track of. Round all numbers to the 5th decimal."

That would have to be the worst idea ever. It would turn the game into accounting, where's the fun in that? It's like going to casino and just giving them 66percent of your money instead going and losing it or maybe even coming out ahead. Or playing monopoly with each player getting an equal distance they can travel.

Luck is needed to produce an accurate* (thus entertaining) simulation of actual warfare. If a Sherman Firefly engages a tiger tank, and fires off the first shot there is a chance that shot will hit, there is a chance that it will penetrate or there is a chance it will bounce off. If the tiger gets a chance to fire back then the sherman could go bye bye, could dodge the shot or by an act of god survive a hit. The loss of a tiger tank could change the whole course of the battle. Their is a a chance that the Germans around it would panic and flee, there is a chance it fill them with rage, and they would fight harder.

Everything is chance. No matter what the statistics, chance is chance unless it's 100 percent certain.

Plus, isn't that above scenario a lot more interesting then, Sherman tank hits (automatically?) (how is this going to be worked without dice), take off 55.55percent health of tiger. Tiger hits, sherman obliterated. German models around tiger tank stand around tiger tank like nothing happened, cause they are plastic toys. DERRRR


*lol accurate

*I know this stuff about decimals may be a troll post :/ ?

 Ovion wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Actual incentive for wiping out a unit in close combat on the first round.

Because right now, you have the silly situation of wanting the enemy unit to not die and stay and pass their leadership check as if you wipe them you are facing a load of shooting next turn, but if you don't then you kill them in their turn, then can move again in yours.

Maybe an overrun, so if you wipe the enemy out (either with attacks or they break and you run them down), you can go 2D6" into another enemy unit and lock them in combat, but they get to overwatch you and it doesn't count as a charge.

Assault is weaker at the moment, and overwatch is in so this is a good opportunity to bring back consolidation into combat.

This was third edition.
This was the edition where my Dark Eldar Archon, with her Agoniser, Shadowfield and Incubi wiped out entire armies if she made it into combat (which was often.)

How about this? Declare assault. Resolve overwatch. After combat, Consolidate some random distance into new unit. Overwatch happens. Unit locked but does not fight again this turn. Next turn assault continues. Neither gains advantages of declaring assault.

--cover modify to instead of cover makes much more sense...
--assaulting from outflank and reserve would be great...
--tanks getting defensive fire / over watch... this would make so much sense and give tanks some kind of defense against assault...
--flying models ( beasts) need to be on a flying base( in other words up in the air until they land.
Please use suitable modeling, im tired of not being able to hit the flying monster thing with my anti air because he is modeled walking and is standing behind a wall but my guys on the ground need 6's to hit him because he is "flying"...

jbunny wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Actual incentive for wiping out a unit in close combat on the first round.

Because right now, you have the silly situation of wanting the enemy unit to not die and stay and pass their leadership check as if you wipe them you are facing a load of shooting next turn, but if you don't then you kill them in their turn, then can move again in yours.

Maybe an overrun, so if you wipe the enemy out (either with attacks or they break and you run them down), you can go 2D6" into another enemy unit and lock them in combat, but they get to overwatch you and it doesn't count as a charge.

Assault is weaker at the moment, and overwatch is in so this is a good opportunity to bring back consolidation into combat.

This was third edition.
This was the edition where my Dark Eldar Archon, with her Agoniser, Shadowfield and Incubi wiped out entire armies if she made it into combat (which was often.)

How about this? Declare assault. Resolve overwatch. After combat, Consolidate some random distance into new unit. Overwatch happens. Unit locked but does not fight again this turn. Next turn assault continues. Neither gains advantages of declaring assault.

I think it would be better to prevent the second unit from doing overwatch but give them the +1 attack for charging.

Not very exciting, but I'd lower the cost of the Eldar Falcon. Right now the Wave Serpent can do everything the Falcon can do, but better and cheaper (and without taking up a heavy support choice, but that's another story).

Firing into combat, it makes no sense that you would just stand by with a bolter in hand and watch someone stab your fellow soldiers

 sweetdaddyg wrote:
Firing into combat, it makes no sense that you would just stand by with a bolter in hand and watch someone stab your fellow soldiers

Yeah. I totally can't see why someone wouldn't fire high caliber explosive weaponry at a moving target mere inches from their comrade. Seriously though, it's completely understandable and explained in the book. The cc is a swirling and writhing mass of bodies. It's hard to draw a bead on an enemy without your allies being at risk of getting hit.

In order for it to work you'd have to basically only allow it to be snap shots, since you're taking your time to aim precisely and not hit your allies. Or you'd have to have your unit in CC take randomized hits, which can cause a morale check or add to the combat resolution to show the unit realizing they're getting caught between a rock and a hard place.

They allow this in Fantasy and it's only done by the most dirty underhanded race against their slaves caste.

I would change it so that you can take a cover save as well as an armour save. As it is, it doesn't make sense - "power armour's great, i think i'll step out from behind this wall" - WTF?

 jifel wrote:
Have Overwatch have some kind of penalty attached. Anything! personally it'd make sense for a unit to not be able to attack if you overwatch. This way, it is at least a choice of whether or not you should overwatch. Or, have it be like Interceptor in the assault phase, and you can't shoot in the turn after.

Yes, even at BS 1, overwatch is very harsh on assault armies. I had 5 Sanguinary Guard, accompanied by a Sanguinary Priest (ie. FNP) assault a squad of thousand sons and get overwatched to death.

Can you overwatch with Psychic powers, because he used the aspiring sorceror, and arhiman who joined the squad, with some template power (bolt of tzeench or something like that).

jbunny wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Actual incentive for wiping out a unit in close combat on the first round.

Because right now, you have the silly situation of wanting the enemy unit to not die and stay and pass their leadership check as if you wipe them you are facing a load of shooting next turn, but if you don't then you kill them in their turn, then can move again in yours.

Maybe an overrun, so if you wipe the enemy out (either with attacks or they break and you run them down), you can go 2D6" into another enemy unit and lock them in combat, but they get to overwatch you and it doesn't count as a charge.

Assault is weaker at the moment, and overwatch is in so this is a good opportunity to bring back consolidation into combat.

This was third edition.
This was the edition where my Dark Eldar Archon, with her Agoniser, Shadowfield and Incubi wiped out entire armies if she made it into combat (which was often.)

How about this? Declare assault. Resolve overwatch. After combat, Consolidate some random distance into new unit. Overwatch happens. Unit locked but does not fight again this turn. Next turn assault continues. Neither gains advantages of declaring assault.

So exactly how it was in 3rd, minus the overwatch.

The point was, it was free, extra movement (2D6") and would ensure the squad was safe in combat, where it could rape face and take little to no damage in return, and wouldn't suffer from being shot at.

Hell, my army was basically Anti-Tank plus a bulletshield to get my Archon into CC, so I could win.

 Jacknife wrote:
I would change it so that you can take a cover save as well as an armour save. As it is, it doesn't make sense - "power armour's great, i think i'll step out from behind this wall" - WTF?

 jifel wrote:
Have Overwatch have some kind of penalty attached. Anything! personally it'd make sense for a unit to not be able to attack if you overwatch. This way, it is at least a choice of whether or not you should overwatch. Or, have it be like Interceptor in the assault phase, and you can't shoot in the turn after.

Yes, even at BS 1, overwatch is very harsh on assault armies. I had 5 Sanguinary Guard, accompanied by a Sanguinary Priest (ie. FNP) assault a squad of thousand sons and get overwatched to death.

Can you overwatch with Psychic powers, because he used the aspiring sorceror, and arhiman who joined the squad, with some template power (bolt of tzeench or something like that).

You can't overwatch with Psychic Powers, at all. It specifically states such in the Psychic Powers section of the rulebook.

Second, statistically, at the end of the day, to put 1 wound on a marine w/ FnP using bolters you need to fire an average of 16 shots. Using AP3 Bolters that'll be an average of 8 each.
But then again, Sanguinary Guard have a 2+ save and FnP, which makes it an average of 48 shots of Overwatch to take one out.
So by the averages, that'd mean you'd need roughly 250 shots of Overwatch to wipe out your squad of 5 Sanquinary Guard and the Priest.

Which means it's a combination of bad luck and your opponent doing Overwatch wrong.

At the end of the day, I don't find overwatch to be a problem due to the sheer weight of fire needed to do serious damage, or that much of a bonus - even as Tau with Supporting Fire, it's not that amazing (and then Tau can't really do much in CC anyway and die to a stiff breeze).

Rather than consolidate 2D6 (from my initial), maybe 2D6 take the highest (fleet allows per re-roll) will be fine and the unit being hit gets overwatch and it's a disordered charge.

Only applicable if you kill the enemy on the turn you charge into assault, either by wiping out the squad with attacks or sweeping advance.

This means that if you wipe them out in your turn, you get to sweep into another unit, but if the fight is protracted even one turn then you can't and consolidate after winning as normal.

A total revamp of how cover and line of sight works would be nice.
I'd go back to some area terrain (not all, just some), and make cover -1 to be hit, hard cover -1 to be hit and a 5+ cover save.

Daba, what about action points, free structure and a combat ready status?

so moving, shooting and charging would all be an action point, but you can spend multiple points on the same action (move, shoot or fire more than once) and in any order you choose
consolidating would be a minor action(it's own point, also different from free action such as deploying grenades during a charge or defensive grendes when you get charged)

ie you move 6" and then assault, wipe out the unit and can then:

A) consolidate back to cover where you can set your squad to fire overwatch at any thing that comes within half range+6"
B) consolidate into combat with an unready for combat status for some disadvantages (no extra attacks, -1 to I, +1 to hit to enemy over watch) after which you still have an action point to spend on getting to cover or advancing into cover or shooting at some stuff or charging into combat with no disadvantages
C)fire twice (and get a slight bonus) preventing that squad that was about to annihilate you from getting it's fangs in

 la'DunX wrote:
Daba, what about action points, free structure and a combat ready status?

so moving, shooting and charging would all be an action point, but you can spend multiple points on the same action (move, shoot or fire more than once) and in any order you choose
consolidating would be a minor action(it's own point, also different from free action such as deploying grenades during a charge or defensive grendes when you get charged)

ie you move 6" and then assault, wipe out the unit and can then:

A) consolidate back to cover where you can set your squad to fire overwatch at any thing that comes within half range+6"
B) consolidate into combat with an unready for combat status for some disadvantages (no extra attacks, -1 to I, +1 to hit to enemy over watch) after which you still have an action point to spend on getting to cover or advancing into cover or shooting at some stuff or charging into combat with no disadvantages
C)fire twice (and get a slight bonus) preventing that squad that was about to annihilate you from getting it's fangs in

I would like this, but it's stepped beyond a 'single' rule change and changes the entire game.

The suggestion sounds like another (and maybe better) game to 40k, so I think goes beyond the scope of this thread unfortunately.

 Daba wrote:
I would like this, but it's stepped beyond a 'single' rule change and changes the entire game.

The suggestion sounds like another (and maybe better) game to 40k, so I think goes beyond the scope of this thread unfortunately.

I'm glad you like the sound of it.
And you are right, it is meant for another thread.
Please consider joining the Redux.

 la'DunX wrote:
Daba, what about action points, free structure and a combat ready status?

so moving, shooting and charging would all be an action point, but you can spend multiple points on the same action (move, shoot or fire more than once) and in any order you choose
consolidating would be a minor action(it's own point, also different from free action such as deploying grenades during a charge or defensive grendes when you get charged)

ie you move 6" and then assault, wipe out the unit and can then:

A) consolidate back to cover where you can set your squad to fire overwatch at any thing that comes within half range+6"
B) consolidate into combat with an unready for combat status for some disadvantages (no extra attacks, -1 to I, +1 to hit to enemy over watch) after which you still have an action point to spend on getting to cover or advancing into cover or shooting at some stuff or charging into combat with no disadvantages
C)fire twice (and get a slight bonus) preventing that squad that was about to annihilate you from getting it's fangs in

"My Riptide spends one action point shooting at you. Then it spends another action point to shoot at you. Then it spends the last action point to shoot you again. Oh, looks like I've killed your entire army turn 1 without you getting to react, good game!"

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 la'DunX wrote:
Daba, what about action points, free structure and a combat ready status?

so moving, shooting and charging would all be an action point, but you can spend multiple points on the same action (move, shoot or fire more than once) and in any order you choose
consolidating would be a minor action(it's own point, also different from free action such as deploying grenades during a charge or defensive grendes when you get charged)

ie you move 6" and then assault, wipe out the unit and can then:

A) consolidate back to cover where you can set your squad to fire overwatch at any thing that comes within half range+6"
B) consolidate into combat with an unready for combat status for some disadvantages (no extra attacks, -1 to I, +1 to hit to enemy over watch) after which you still have an action point to spend on getting to cover or advancing into cover or shooting at some stuff or charging into combat with no disadvantages
C)fire twice (and get a slight bonus) preventing that squad that was about to annihilate you from getting it's fangs in

"My Riptide spends one action point shooting at you. Then it spends another action point to shoot at you. Then it spends the last action point to shoot you again. Oh, looks like I've killed your entire army turn 1 without you getting to react, good game!"

1) hbc would not reach, IA can only do 6 models max and that's with bonuses, heavy weapons require 2ap (all 3 ap in one go at one squad allows a minor point to go towards firing,)
2) 6 models die, at a push
3) yes I get that it does give tau a certain advantage, but terrain and my trademarked reaction step (return fire or take cover for shooting), you can shoot back at me in my turn (and probably hit)

now sniper teams, those will be a bit op (36 48" sniper shots... urk) but I am working on it, I have only had the idea about 24 hours (sniper weapons are probably only going to be able to fire once per turn @ full range for fluffy sniper reasons, like revealing your position)

How do you get 36?
Each Sniper team is 9 shots at 48", 18 shots at 24", 27shots at 24" with an Ethereal nearby.

But yeah - 3 Riptides being able to fire 3-5+ times a turn each will do an extreme amount of damage.

I get 36 from having 9 fire four times(3ap+1mp), the riptide can only fire twice (and only non-overcharge & novacharge as both would take an mp), it can kill 6 models if I'm lucky