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 BryllCream wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
Points values haven't played part in army composition/list writing in quite some time, since early 4th when special characters weren't allowed in certain size games.

What do you mean by this?

Back in 4th you weren't allowed to take SCs below a certain points limit (1500 IIRC).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Back in 4th you weren't allowed to take SCs below a certain points limit (1500 IIRC).

That was never a blanket rule. Most special characters had a rule that required certain points limits to field them, but they weren't all 1500 points, and there were some that didn't have any limit.

 unmercifulconker wrote:

Natfka:
"via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
Neophytes get their own unit entry, 5-10 unit size, they're 0-X max, where X = squads with the crusader keyword
...............
They get attached to squads with the crusade keyword at the start of the game when the main squad is deployed or they can be deployed independently.
.............

Initiates come with bp/ccw and grenades, one in 5 can take an assault gun, and their squad size is 1-20. 11 points each. They can replace their weapons with bolters for a price. They're bs3, and can buy bs4 for a price.

Can take land raiders as dedicated transports at a really decent price reduction.
..............

Wargear is significantly cheaper for BT characters.

.............

Detachable neophytes instead of attached ones...

The important part: Initiates = Bs 3. I'd like to see the rest of the statline.
Sure 11 points and cheaper transports and cheaper wargear sounds nice. If you plan to play black tide.
Could LRC move this? Or do we need Spartans?

 insaniak wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Back in 4th you weren't allowed to take SCs below a certain points limit (1500 IIRC).

That was never a blanket rule. Most special characters had a rule that required certain points limits to field them, but they weren't all 1500 points, and there were some that didn't have any limit.

Yup Abbadon or marneus Calgar could only be taken in armies of at least 2000pts, Kharn in a an army of 1500+ and that had at least a unit with the mark of Khorne, Old One-eyed and deathleaper could only be taken in 1500pts nids army, and so on and on.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
Points values haven't played part in army composition/list writing in quite some time, since early 4th when special characters weren't allowed in certain size games.

What do you mean by this?

Back in 4th you weren't allowed to take SCs below a certain points limit (1500 IIRC).

Ah okay. I miss read what you put

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Back in 4th you weren't allowed to take SCs below a certain points limit (1500 IIRC).

That was never a blanket rule. Most special characters had a rule that required certain points limits to field them, but they weren't all 1500 points, and there were some that didn't have any limit.

Yup Abbadon or marneus Calgar could only be taken in armies of at least 2000pts, Kharn in a an army of 1500+ and that had at least a unit with the mark of Khorne, Old One-eyed and deathleaper could only be taken in 1500pts nids army, and so on and on.

You mean 3rd right, or really early 4th, because Abbadon in 4th was quite free in his costs.

As it currently stands, Helbrecht and Grimaldus can only be fielded at 1500.

I really want there to be a Land Raider Pandora - a Land Raider with no sponsons that can carry 20 Marines/10 Terminators.

 pretre wrote:
That would just lead to weeny guys taking all the challenges. Funny and it would be great if there was some bonus for winning.

Perhaps a random cinematic roll on a "Virtues of Victory" table?

So I would love for this to be true but I'm really hesitant to get my hopes up for
My Templars. I'm still sticking with my conclusion that GW made me pay for a bunch of useless plastic

The rumored lower stats and points costs of Initiates reinforces my theory that Black Templars are the community college chapter of Space Marines.

 Brother SRM wrote:
The rumored lower stats and points costs of Initiates reinforces my theory that Black Templars are the community college chapter of Space Marines.

Would explain why there are so many of them, anyone looking to buy their way into it can get a black carapace, a stud sunk in thier forhead, and a barge to ride on. The Emprah forgives, if you give us all your wordly posessions and swear to knock headz for him.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:


Yup Abbadon or marneus Calgar could only be taken in armies of at least 2000pts, Kharn in a an army of 1500+ and that had at least a unit with the mark of Khorne, Old One-eyed and deathleaper could only be taken in 1500pts nids army, and so on and on.

Which was just the old way GW put pressure on you. "Ya cannot play with the cool stuff at 500 pts. Go and buy more plastic toys!!!!!"

They've since adopted slightly (only slightly) more sophisticated methods to get you spendin'

Round 2 of the rumours from Natfka:
"Neophytes:
Scout Stat line.
They do not take up a force organization slot, but count as troops for all intents and purposes (Scoring etc).

They do not have infiltrate, or move through cover. They also are not subject to rage after taking a casualty.
The number of Neophyte Squads you can take equals the number of Initiate, Assault, Bike and Sword Brethren squads total you have in the army.

Sword Brethren Terminators do not increase this limit.

Once purchased, as a 5-10 unit choice they are their own selection.

When deploying Squads with the Crusade keyword (Initiates, Assault, Bikes) you can attach a Neophyte squad to it. This then becomes one unit for all intents and purposes for the remainder of the game and cannot be split.

If the squad numbers 5 models, Neophytes can buy Bikes. They cannot buy jump packs. They come with bolt pistol and CCW and they cannot take special weapons. Those on bikes can upgrade to grenade launchers though. Neophytes can take shotguns

If you don't want to attach them, you can just deploy them as their own unit.

From what it seems, you can put Neophytes with bikes into squads without bikes, and vice versa.


Initiates:
Initiates have the stats of a basic marine, except their BS which is 3. It's +1 point per model (and the whole squad has to buy it), to get up to BS 4. For 1 more point, you swap their chainsword for a bolter. They are 10-20. Only assault special weapons (meltaguns, plasmaguns or flamers) can be taken. No heavy weapons. Instead of assault weapons they can take power weapons. They can replace both their BP and CCW for a Heavy Chainsword. They do not have sergeants, and are leadership 8.

Yes it's possible to take 20 Initiates and 10 Neophytes it seems.

Castellans:
Castellans are a 0-3 per slot elites choice. They are independent characters and take on vows that are reminiscent of oaths of moment from the books. Things like taking objectives, or defending them till the end and confer that benefit to initiates (or better) that are in the same squad as them. They can't take more than one vow and vows have different point costs. They get access to all sorts of interesting wargear, and unique wargear. They do not have to take wargear or vows, and are more expensive than a wolf guard, despite having the same stats. They are leadership 9.

This playtest set is incomplete and out of date, but since it's only one version out, it should be pretty close to what is currently being used."

Heavy chainswords sounds exactly like what space knights need.

Edit: Also a potential squad of 20 initiates and 10 neophytes? Come at me orks, yo green tide, make way for the black tide!

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Round 2 of the rumours from Natfka:

Spoiler:

"Neophytes:
Scout Stat line.
They do not take up a force organization slot, but count as troops for all intents and purposes (Scoring etc).

They do not have infiltrate, or move through cover. They also are not subject to rage after taking a casualty.
The number of Neophyte Squads you can take equals the number of Initiate, Assault, Bike and Sword Brethren squads total you have in the army.

Sword Brethren Terminators do not increase this limit.

Once purchased, as a 5-10 unit choice they are their own selection.

When deploying Squads with the Crusade keyword (Initiates, Assault, Bikes) you can attach a Neophyte squad to it. This then becomes one unit for all intents and purposes for the remainder of the game and cannot be split.

If the squad numbers 5 models, Neophytes can buy Bikes. They cannot buy jump packs. They come with bolt pistol and CCW and they cannot take special weapons. Those on bikes can upgrade to grenade launchers though. Neophytes can take shotguns

If you don't want to attach them, you can just deploy them as their own unit.

From what it seems, you can put Neophytes with bikes into squads without bikes, and vice versa.


Initiates:
Initiates have the stats of a basic marine, except their BS which is 3. It's +1 point per model (and the whole squad has to buy it), to get up to BS 4. For 1 more point, you swap their chainsword for a bolter. They are 10-20. Only assault special weapons (meltaguns, plasmaguns or flamers) can be taken. No heavy weapons. Instead of assault weapons they can take power weapons. They can replace both their BP and CCW for a Heavy Chainsword. They do not have sergeants, and are leadership 8.

Yes it's possible to take 20 Initiates and 10 Neophytes it seems.

Castellans:
Castellans are a 0-3 per slot elites choice. They are independent characters and take on vows that are reminiscent of oaths of moment from the books. Things like taking objectives, or defending them till the end and confer that benefit to initiates (or better) that are in the same squad as them. They can't take more than one vow and vows have different point costs. They get access to all sorts of interesting wargear, and unique wargear. They do not have to take wargear or vows, and are more expensive than a wolf guard, despite having the same stats. They are leadership 9.

This playtest set is incomplete and out of date, but since it's only one version out, it should be pretty close to what is currently being used."

Heavy chainswords sounds exactly like what space knights need.

Edit: Also a potential squad of 20 initiates and 10 neophytes? Come at me orks, yo green tide, make way for the black tide!

Okay, I need to go head down to the gym and take a cold shower now. I think repainting my Templars might be a little higher on my priority list now.

I want this to be true. I really do! When BT get their update we won't have to hear all the "BT are being rolled into the SM Dex" rumors....

Hmm, I'm just curious what I'm going to do with my Heavy Weapons Marines. The 10 minimum rumour also kinda makes Razorbacks rather wonky.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Hmm, I'm just curious what I'm going to do with my Heavy Weapons Marines. The 10 minimum rumour also kinda makes Razorbacks rather wonky.

Hmm I did not even think of that, maybe they will still have their use for sword brethren or command squads? I will miss the days of min max squads.... I am wondering what our super unit will be, maybe some super nasty terminators with great swords...I can keep dreaming though.

So what happened to vanilla marine dex? Wasn't that supposed to be next?

Don't know. In that last rumor, it stated "This playtest set is incomplete and out of date, but since it's only one version out, it should be pretty close to what is currently being used."

These could easily be Alpha Play test notes and we're a year away still. Who can say?

Personally I hope our super unit is either a god like knight squad or a big contemptor like dread kind of like the jaeger from pacific rim with the sword, just smaller of course.

Knight Walker! Do eeet!!!

It's interesting that these are going to be the only variant Space Marine chapter with Scout Bikers. Attaching bikers to non-biker units is wonky though, so I wouldn't be surprised if that got changed. The way Neophytes are supposedly being handled is pretty cool too, since it cuts down on redundantly putting their options in each unit entry as well. Also, multiple Castellans per Elites slot is kind of cool, like somewhere between Wolf Guard and Sanguinary Priests. Should solve the low leadership problem and the lack of challengers pretty well.

How would Neos attach to an Assault squad if they cant take jump packs? Bikes only Ill bet.

 kronk wrote:
Don't know. In that last rumor, it stated "This playtest set is incomplete and out of date, but since it's only one version out, it should be pretty close to what is currently being used."

These could easily be Alpha Play test notes and we're a year away still. Who can say?

That's how rumor mongers 'cover' themselves. It's like plausible deniability. 'It was a playtest. That's why what came out is nothing like my rumors.'

In the fluff, a Castellan is closer to a Captain than a sgt, I'd like to see them with a better stat line than a wolf guard, and points commensurate.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
How would Neos attach to an Assault squad if they cant take jump packs? Bikes only Ill bet.

Or non-jump pack assault marines, like the C: Space Marines allow.

Non jump-pack Assault Marines are also known as "Everybody in the Black Templars Codex".

Orks deserve a new codex stat. A lot of good players stuck with a very old codex.

So if Orks are next, why are we only seeing specifics about BT?

And why am I even bothering with a Faeit thread?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So if Orks are next, why are we only seeing specifics about BT?

And why am I even bothering with a Faeit thread?

Was going to answer the first question and then your second question answered it.