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rigeld2, you joined the conversation. So that huge building that your opponent plops down in the middle of the board, every game, can be considered a ruin or fortification (a 4+ and possible 3+). In past games I would just go around it, unless it bottlenecked me too much and I had to go through it. If I was shot at, I would still just roll the 5+.
So with the exception of some ruined buildings, the rest of the terrain you are left with either no LOS or the same. For the most part if you have to cross a wide open field (which never happens for me) your save would be worse, because unless you bring grots, you can't go to ground, because of fearless.
Now, if I would get the same cover for 0pts, I realized that my Big Mek KFF usually ends up doing nothing and it takes up a HQ slot, plus was costing me a minimun of 85pts (the cost of 14 wounds for a 2 wound figure).
I had to change my thinking from instead of just sucking up the difficult terrain roll (that I desperately tried to avoid), I would embrace it, moving the massive army where I wanted to, because I need the terrain.
Cybork is very expensive, the 5+ is an invulnerable save not just a cover save but for me I would once again try to avoid terrain and end up bottlenecking my units who's movement would come to a stand still.
For players, that have done this I was wondering how it was working for you? If you brought along the KFF, do you realize how many rolls would have been the same, better, or worse than if you didn't bring it along? Because it still doesn't change your shooting, with the models behind, you will still grant that 5+ save.

 Sleg wrote:
rigeld2, you joined the conversation. So that huge building that your opponent plops down in the middle of the board, every game, can be considered a ruin or fortification (a 4+ and possible 3+). In past games I would just go around it, unless it bottlenecked me too much and I had to go through it. If I was shot at, I would still just roll the 5+.
So with the exception of some ruined buildings, the rest of the terrain you are left with either no LOS or the same. For the most part if you have to cross a wide open field (which never happens for me) your save would be worse, because unless you bring grots, you can't go to ground, because of fearless.
Now, if I would get the same cover for 0pts, I realized that my Big Mek KFF usually ends up doing nothing and it takes up a HQ slot, plus was costing me a minimun of 85pts (the cost of 14 wounds for a 2 wound figure).
I had to change my thinking from instead of just sucking up the difficult terrain roll (that I desperately tried to avoid), I would embrace it, moving the massive army where I wanted to, because I need the terrain.
Cybork is very expensive, the 5+ is an invulnerable save not just a cover save but for me I would once again try to avoid terrain and end up bottlenecking my units who's movement would come to a stand still.
For players, that have done this I was wondering how it was working for you? If you brought along the KFF, do you realize how many rolls would have been the same, better, or worse than if you didn't bring it along? Because it still doesn't change your shooting, with the models behind, you will still grant that 5+ save.

If you have one unit of boys providing cover for everyone else, then that unit is your bottle neck. you can only move as fast as that unit. It can be a bigger hindrance than the cover it provides. And grots do that job better and cheaper so you can get some bigger guns and more klaws.

your nob squad is just an expensive boy squad, you're paying 8 points more for 1 less wound. If you're not going to give them bikes, klaws, a painboy or extra weapons, you really don't need them.

KFF protects you from barrage weapons, overwatch shots, vehicle explosions (inside or out) and your front line when they're in the open. Terrain does provide cover and sometimes better cover, but it can never protect your entire army. Why not use both?

Drop the nobs, downgrade your shield line to grots, and get more kannons, get lootas, and definitely get more klaws. I know tides logic is boys before toys, but trust me, the toys are nice to.

If you have only one unit providing cover - this is about switching your front unit off so they can move through difficult terrain. The problem with using grots is they have to stay in front, Also they will probably route after the first volley of shots are taken.

So yes, you will bottleneck, you would've bottlenecked anyway. As for using both, I'm not against using the KFF, but I have to weigh it against more useful HQ options and 14 wounds. If it will save more than 86 orks from shots fired that regular cover wouldn't provide, then taking the KFF is worth it. Otherwise, 14 more Ork Boyz with shootas to absorb wounds is the better value. A Warboss will always be better, taking a Nob unit as a scoring unit with Cybork and FNP - is better overall than a 5+ cover.


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My math was off it would be 72 or more Boyz instead of more than 86, I didn't take into account that the Big Mek had 2 wounds

 Sleg wrote:
If you have only one unit providing cover - this is about switching your front unit off so they can move through difficult terrain. The problem with using grots is they have to stay in front, Also they will probably route after the first volley of shots are taken.

So yes, you will bottleneck, you would've bottlenecked anyway. As for using both, I'm not against using the KFF, but I have to weigh it against more useful HQ options and 14 wounds. If it will save more than 86 orks from shots fired that regular cover wouldn't provide, then taking the KFF is worth it. Otherwise, 14 more Ork Boyz with shootas to absorb wounds is the better value. A Warboss will always be better, taking a Nob unit as a scoring unit with Cybork and FNP - is better overall than a 5+ cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My math was off it would be 72 or more Boyz instead of more than 86, I didn't take into account that the Big Mek had 2 wounds

How do you figure 72?

it only costs 15 boys, so if it saves 15 it made it's points. 13 if your just counting wounds.

It's complicated, based on average shots to average hits to average wounds. You take the base min for 84 points, it's 14 Ork Boys, all with a 6+ armor save (the average ap weapon negates that). Strip out all equal saves, including intervening models and cover saves. You are left with models that would take open field shots (Focus Fire), Barrage Weapons, and overwatch shots. You are not taking into account that Ork Shoota Boyz might shoot. Take 2 units of Boyz, with the KFF it's 23, without its 30. What I forgot to factor in is the 2 wound HQ with a higher LD, when the units drop below 11. This will happen faster with the 23 than the 30.

Build the equation based on these factors and take the average as the firm means. This assumes that both armies will roll exactly the same.

Total that up
The answer is 71.7634 so 72 or more.

Originally I didn't take into account that the Big Mek had 2 wounds
that answer was 86.2343... so more than 86.

You're going to have to show your work on that - the actual equation and not your babbling explanation.

Because the way you just explained it makes less than zero sense and actually would be literally impossible to calculate.

 easysauce wrote:
warbikes have 2 wounds fyi

That's incorrect.

Nob Bikers have 2 wounds, regular bikers only 1.

I've never as of yet had my orks tabled. I'm still playing almost the same army since mid 5th. Battlewagons and deffrollas with a dash of Nob Bikers. Lootas to spare.

rigeld2 - I'm going to just refuse to do that, since it's just babbling, just assume I'm wrong and move on. compare 2 wounds to 14 wounds and the number of time that you believe wont get saved, if the Big Mek saves move, then use the Big Mek.

The problem with greentide is meeting a foe who can play that game better than you can.

My endless pooping Termagant babies list for example, or the Krieg assault brigade's forever reinforcing platoons of doom.

Kain, facing off against a real horde, I would say is the least of the problems with Green Tide.
the biggest problem, I've found is movement. When you cover your deployment zone from the start and then begin the slow movement, you mostly have to just take every shot by your opponent for 3 turns.
If your opponent doesn't panic and focuses on one of your flanks, removing the unit with the Big Mek and still keeping away from the other units, the Green Tide should crumble everytime. Bottlenecking is the worst and it allows your opponent to 300 you and just keep killing those in front, which means that in order to avoid this, you have to slug through difficult terrain make 3 turns until contact 4-5 (sometimes the game will end before melee ever happens).

But that said, if Green Tide (or the 2 other examples you mentioned) can restrict the opponents movement and force them into endless shooting of Fearless Troops, they might actually pull a win. But so far, only bringing an extremely large number of Boyz I have been able to do this. taking fewer boyz for firepower (toys) has never been effective Green Tide for me - yes there are times that victory is possible, but the boyz were no longer effective enough and I might as well just built my force around the Toys instead of trying to Green Tide.

 Kain wrote:
The problem with greentide is meeting a foe who can play that game better than you can.

My endless pooping Termagant babies list for example, or the Krieg assault brigade's forever reinforcing platoons of doom.

I'll agree nids & guard are hard fights. and you just can't declare when the game starts who will win.

and sleg, if they concentrate on the big mek, and it lives. The second part to that strategy is he plays hot potato, and never finishes in the unit he starts in. I think the part of your math that needs looking at is you are counting the loss of shooting for the 15 boys that payed for the big mek. But along with that you even admit you're not shooting til turn 3. So if the mek can save 15+ boys by round 3 it's a wash for loss of shooting.

When it comes to the HQ selection isn't it that Green Tide players prefer Big Mek with KFF to Warboss because Warboss actually gives you 0 synergy and BM gives you 5+ cover.
And since you HAVE to have 1 HQ, people just take BM because it improves their major force, Green Tide that is.

sirlynchmob wrote:
and sleg, if they concentrate on the big mek, and it lives. The second part to that strategy is he plays hot potato, and never finishes in the unit he starts in. I think the part of your math that needs looking at is you are counting the loss of shooting for the 15 boys that payed for the big mek. But along with that you even admit you're not shooting til turn 3. So if the mek can save 15+ boys by round 3 it's a wash for loss of shooting.

My math is pretty sound, but lets go with the simple math of 12+ saves equals price of Big Mek. The wounds give, can not provide natural 5+ cover saves from terrain or intervening models. Also half the weapons do not have an AP, so any 6 that you roll would be an armor save. So you will have to roll 42 save rolls, losing on average 32 Boyz, in order to justify the cost of the Big Mek, But wait that's not all, you have smaller units, Losing 13 (instead of 20), will cause the unit to make LD test, failing at 20%-43% of the time, Which if they have a Bosspole, will cause another wound to a Boy which they will fail 50% of the time.
If the opponent concentrates on the Big Mek's unit - intervening cover doesn't matter it's still 5+, shooting the Big Mek's unit wouldn't count towards making the Big Mek useful, they should be able to eliminate that unit before he can hot potato.

 Sleg wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
and sleg, if they concentrate on the big mek, and it lives. The second part to that strategy is he plays hot potato, and never finishes in the unit he starts in. I think the part of your math that needs looking at is you are counting the loss of shooting for the 15 boys that payed for the big mek. But along with that you even admit you're not shooting til turn 3. So if the mek can save 15+ boys by round 3 it's a wash for loss of shooting.

My math is pretty sound, but lets go with the simple math of 12+ saves equals price of Big Mek. The wounds give, can not provide natural 5+ cover saves from terrain or intervening models. Also half the weapons do not have an AP, so any 6 that you roll would be an armor save. So you will have to roll 42 save rolls, losing on average 32 Boyz, in order to justify the cost of the Big Mek, But wait that's not all, you have smaller units, Losing 13 (instead of 20), will cause the unit to make LD test, failing at 20%-43% of the time, Which if they have a Bosspole, will cause another wound to a Boy which they will fail 50% of the time.
If the opponent concentrates on the Big Mek's unit - intervening cover doesn't matter it's still 5+, shooting the Big Mek's unit wouldn't count towards making the Big Mek useful, they should be able to eliminate that unit before he can hot potato.

I see what you're doing.

Just about every weapon put on the table ignores our armor. It's safe to say we'll almost never take an armor save.

I agree you'd count only the cover saves that the KFF provides, not terrain. So all you'd need is a divided sheet of paper to test with: Kff saves and terrain saves. I'd divide them again into saves taken & saves made. But feel free to track armor saves taken & made as well. Might as well get as much data as possible. Taking 42 cover saves is rather easy to do after 2 rounds of shooting, but for this kind of comparison it's the data from games that count. If you get the 42 cover saves that you normally wouldn't have gotten then it definitely paid for itself.

I'm not sure how you figured the LD tests, at LD:7 you have a 58.33% of passing it from any shooting attack, then you get a chance to reroll. so you'll make the test more than you'll fail the test.

For your build:
110 Warboss (Cybork, PK, Attack Squig)
123 Big Mek (SAG, Burna, Ammo Runt, Bosspole)

4x195 30 Ork Boyz (Shootas, 3 Big Shootas)
135 20 Ork Boyz (Nob, Shootas, 2 Big Shootas)

you'd keep the 4x30 boys, The points you save by replacing your warboss would make your 5th mob 25 boys, or if you replace the SAG you'd have a unit of 28. So that's actually more boys for you, not less. And compared to a SAG who's just as likely to kill more boys then the enemy a KFF starts off saving boys just from that.

 Sleg wrote:
rigeld2 - I'm going to just refuse to do that, since it's just babbling, just assume I'm wrong and move on. compare 2 wounds to 14 wounds and the number of time that you believe wont get saved, if the Big Mek saves move, then use the Big Mek.

How about this:

Cost of the KFF: 85 (iirc)
Cost of a boy: 6 (iirc)

85/6=14.

If the KFF saves more than 14 boyz it's paid for itself.
Here's the "impossible to determine" part - the KFF only gets used on models (not units) that are out of terrain. Having the KFF affords you the option of leaving models out of terrain and not caring. Not having it means you have to hug cover to have a save. KFF == options. No KFF == reduced options.

There's no "mathematical" way for you to prove it because you cannot ever mathematically represent the battlefield. If you have 90+ models, however, it's likely that half of them will be out of cover. A Barrage weapon, focus fire... there's multiple ways to hit models that aren't standing in area terrain. The KFF gives those models a save. Screening with grots doesn't (because you shoot chump guns at the screen, models go away, you shoot into the pretty gap).

First, not all shots from a Barrage weapon provide no cover. The shot is taken from the hole, so any other unit hit, would get intervening cover of 5+. You have to take those shots out as well. But Focus Fire, will, the only difference, is they will not have to use focus fire, to hit any unit they want because they all get 5+ cover. 5+ cover only saves 1/3 of the time.

You have to weigh your not shooting HQ against 14 possible shooting Ork Boyz. So it would have to save 12+ Ork boys that normal cover wouldn't.

12+ is less than 14. Seriously, do you even read you own posts? Not to mention that you put out some magic numbers, claim your math is correct and then refuse to show your calculation. That's just as good as making up numbers - there is no way to tell if you're right or wrong.

If you suffer 45 wounds, a KFF will save 15 of those on average. 45 wounds are 90 S4 hits, which are 135 BS4 shots. Seems like a lot? You are taking these shots across at least two turns, so 67.5 shots per turn, which are 33.75 bolters, gauss rifles, shuriken catapults or any equivalent weapon.
So, if as much as three troops choices manage to shoot your orks for two turns you've almost gained the value of the KFF the second you charge.

Also, if your opponent is drops a large building for you to hide behind in the center of the board, he really is giving you an advantage. He could just drop the building on your table edge and deny you any cover at all.

Just to sum up everything you said:
You don't need the KFF, if...
- all your terrain is ruins (well, that actually might happen)
- your opponent does not focus fire and instead targets the closest model (aka playing against weak players)
- you forget to take 4+ cover saves because of the KFF (a warboss is also useless if you forget to move him)
- you actually get to take your 6+ armor most of the time (grot horde?)
- you cybork everything with Mad Doc Grotznik (for as little as than 150 points per mob)
- it doesn't work against barrage (which it does)
- you usually have more than the average 12 pieces of terrain, so you can hide the vast majority of your 90 orks in cover (outside of cities of death... unlikely)
- you take a scoring nob unit with FNP and cybork (whatever that has to do with anything)
- your opponent is dropping terrain in favor of you, rather than in favor of him (dead orks are better than slow orks)
- you are fielding smaller units than 30 because you bought a KFF (why should you?)
- you save less than 12 additional boyz over the course of a game (as shown above, not that hard in most games)

So, in your own words, you've pretty much said that there is no reason not to take a KFF.

 Sleg wrote:
First, not all shots from a Barrage weapon provide no cover. The shot is taken from the hole, so any other unit hit, would get intervening cover of 5+.

I never said that a Barrage weapon ignores cover. With a 30 man blob it's unlikely for it to scatter outside of a single unit, meaning you won't get an intervening unit cover save.

You have to take those shots out as well. But Focus Fire, will, the only difference, is they will not have to use focus fire, to hit any unit they want because they all get 5+ cover. 5+ cover only saves 1/3 of the time.

And how often does no cover save?

You have to weigh your not shooting HQ against 14 possible shooting Ork Boyz. So it would have to save 12+ Ork boys that normal cover wouldn't.

I've never - ever - seen a game decided by 14 boyz shooting (what is that - 14 shots per turn, BS2, assuming they shoot every single turn... 14 shots, 1/3 hit (5), 1/2 wound (Str4 right? 3 wounds), 2/3 save for 1 wound per turn. Seriously. You're going to hang an argument on that?)

 Sleg wrote:
First, not all shots from a Barrage weapon provide no cover. The shot is taken from the hole, so any other unit hit, would get intervening cover of 5+. You have to take those shots out as well. But Focus Fire, will, the only difference, is they will not have to use focus fire, to hit any unit they want because they all get 5+ cover. 5+ cover only saves 1/3 of the time.

You have to weigh your not shooting HQ against 14 possible shooting Ork Boyz. So it would have to save 12+ Ork boys that normal cover wouldn't.

And no cover, never saves. so an extra 1/3 of the times is a definite improvement. I also showed how you'd have more boys by taking a cheaper HQ. so you're not losing out on any shooting, you can even give the mek a burna and still add a few boys to your list.

/edit oh and you don't even need to take the KFF to see if it would help you, next time you play just tally up boys who didn't get a cover save that the KFF would have provided one to.

And Rigeld2, that would be 28 shots from 14 boys, most orks are packing shootas now days, not the old sluggas.
so 10 hits, 5 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds.

I ran a greentide with lootas and 3 deffdread out of the 52 games I played 50 won and 2 drew (drew with draigo wing, I can't push 10 paladins draigo and a Libby off their objective, necron were pretty OP when they came out as we all know.)

My green tide has beaten Purifers spam, inquisitor (GK) acolyte av12 spam, 2x landraider GK all were the OP armies at the time.

I used the tools I has, bodies and KFF and terrain to beat all those army. My list had nothing special it's pretty much a net list except without the kanwall but with 3 deffdread with flamer and rest CC weapons

12 is based on the cost of a Big Mek which equal 14 minus the 2 wounds of the Big Mek. You should really read my post. Because everything you stated is actually completely wrong.


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 Marthike wrote:
I ran a greentide with lootas and 3 deffdread out of the 52 games I played 50 won and 2 drew (drew with draigo wing, I can't push 10 paladins draigo and a Libby off their objective, necron were pretty OP when they came out as we all know.)
My green tide has beaten Purifers spam, inquisitor (GK) acolyte av12 spam, 2x landraider GK all were the OP armies at the time.
I used the tools I has, bodies and KFF and terrain to beat all those army. My list had nothing special it's pretty much a net list except without the kanwall but with 3 deffdread with flamer and rest CC weapons

What was the Points on the 50 games?
So you had at least 100 Boyz, a Warboss, Big Mek KFF, Lootas, and 3 Deff Dread - Skorcha and CC (95 points each). Hopefully you had an ADL for your Lootas.
In all 50 games not one army you played against, just shot out one side of Orks, and then removed the rest of the Orks with ease while you struggled through terrain. Because you should become a Ranked Player and single-handed bring the 4th edition Orks to actually placing at GW sanctioned events. I mean wow, 50 out of 52 games and no loses, I think it's unbelievable.


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sirlynchmob wrote:
I see what you're doing. Just about every weapon put on the table ignores our armor. It's safe to say we'll almost never take an armor save.

My original equation takes this into account - only to simplify the fact that a lot of mounted units or CC special units tend to only carry weapons without an AP. But yes I'm always shocked when I'm rolling the 6+ armor save - but it would be no where near half, probably in the high 80 percentile range (might as well just take it out).

I agree you'd count only the cover saves that the KFF provides, not terrain. So all you'd need is a divided sheet of paper to test with: Kff saves and terrain saves. I'd divide them again into saves taken & saves made. But feel free to track armor saves taken & made as well. Might as well get as much data as possible. Taking 42 cover saves is rather easy to do after 2 rounds of shooting, but for this kind of comparison it's the data from games that count. If you get the 42 cover saves that you normally wouldn't have gotten then it definitely paid for itself.

So you have to have a practical test, instead of just using averages?

I'm not sure how you figured the LD tests, at LD:7 you have a 58.33% of passing it from any shooting attack, then you get a chance to reroll. so you'll make the test more than you'll fail the test.

The actual percentage of passing LD test is 57.142857142857(repeated) - round to 57% pass, fail at 43% but only if your nob is still alive otherwise your LD 5 28.571428571428(repeated) - rounded to 29%, fail at 71%.

I need to make a correction because of Mob Rule - it's not 80% but 90.476190476190(repeating) - rounded to 90% so it would be a 10% fail not 20% - going from LD10 down to a LD7 possible LD5 - so failing at 10% - 43% possible 71%.

I've already play tested Green Tide plenty to know that when I don't have a KFF, my opponent will shoot the easier or no cover units before shooting at the units that have something to lose like an HQ. If they are throwing a lot of shots or think they will do a lot of wounds, they don't waste the focus fire, especially when they could remove cover from a unit and allow other units to shoot with no cover the front line, instead of the same unit behind. This is solid thinking, except I seem to still take the same amount of time, what every their shooting method is.

When I have taken the KFF, there is a huge bullseye on that unit. Because it isn't any safer than a Grot or Ork Boyz front line, They might as well shoot that unit first or the Lootas or any other unit they perceive as a threat, usually elimiting the punch from the force. Most times I leave the game wondering why I didn't just take more boyz. In earlier editions of 40k, lots of boyz worked so much better than it does now.

Overwatch for Orks is not a big deal. Overwatch for other armies is the change from hitting on 3's to only 6's this seems to make a huge difference and why I usually do not hesitate to assault ever. I've had the tables turned and been assaulted instead, only because Orks arealways better when they charge.

There is one combination resulting in a 2, two resulting in a 3, three resulting in a 4, four resulting in a 5, five resulting in a 6 and six resulting in a 7, for a total of 21 out of 36 combinations.

21/36 = 0.583333

Considering your long string of miscalculations, your "equation" is worth absolutely nothing unless you post it. That is, if it exists.

I haven't seen green tide used competitively since the Heldrake was released.

@sleg number of cover saves taken Is near impossible to figure out mathematically during a game with a ever changing battle field, and against all knows armies. so yes a few games keeping track of the numbers will give enough raw data to see how effective the KFF is. The more games the more data and better we can predict games.

LD will never go below 7 for shooting attacks which is what we're really talking about here for boys. If you're trying to bring grots into this, I don't see the point since you're not running them and we've been talking about boys to kff costs. but if you bring them up you should separate between boys & grots then.

And again, cheaper HQ=more boys so you're gaining boys when you use the KFF.

@Jidmah he's calculating for the number of saves needed to save the 14 boys the kff costs in points. so if you took 42 cover saves you should end up saving 14 boys. I'm not sure about the LD numbers though.

@D6Damager I still take a tide army and usually face off and win against chaos. But my tide has lootas and koptas and force fields, oh my!. lootas will wreck most chaos vehicles including the chicken.

 Jidmah wrote:
There is one combination resulting in a 2, two resulting in a 3, three resulting in a 4, four resulting in a 5, five resulting in a 6 and six resulting in a 7, for a total of 21 out of 36 combinations.

So you are counting two separate roll for 3 because it's a 1 and 2 or 2 and 1. for your average. Not just 1 roll like snake eyes 1 die is a 1 and the other is a 2. Because both dice can't be 2 nor can they both be 1. But using your results, it's 58%, instead of 57%.

21/36 = 0.583333
Considering your long string of miscalculations, your "equation" is worth absolutely nothing unless you post it. That is, if it exists.

How about I say it's worth nothing to you, since you have said nothing that would encourage me to show my work. You have only shown how petty you are by misquoting me and either removing past statements or changing them to sway the argument towards you. In the end it doesn't matter, this is about using Terrain for a Green Tide Army, if you have a KFF - I'm so very happy for you. If you don't have problems moving through terrain, I'm jumping for joy at the fact that you are such a winner. If this was something that you have solved by just being a better player, I don't know how that helps. But there are those of us who do have this problem terrain. There are those like me who only wished we didn't use terrain so I can move my force unimpeded down the field and engage with my opponent. So please stop trolling and join the discussion or ignore it like you stated you were going to do before.


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sirlynchmob wrote:
@sleg number of cover saves taken Is near impossible to figure out mathematically during a game with a ever changing battle field, and against all knows armies. so yes a few games keeping track of the numbers will give enough raw data to see how effective the KFF is. The more games the more data and better we can predict games.
LD will never go below 7 for shooting attacks which is what we're really talking about here for boys. If you're trying to bring grots into this, I don't see the point since you're not running them and we've been talking about boys to kff costs. but if you bring them up you should separate between boys & grots then.
And again, cheaper HQ=more boys so you're gaining boys when you use the KFF.

Sorry, I was in the middle of creating a Green Tide list with Grots and Mad Doc, but you are correct that the LD never drops below 7 which is according some equal to 42% failure - not 43% that I maintain (but doesn't really matter).
Now you got to the heart of the matter, I do agree that taking a KFF (85pts) instead of a Warboss (110) equals more Boyz. I also agree that the 2 test games (1 win 1 loss) is not a valid test, compared to the overwhelming losses I've taken using the green tide in 5th Edition (which technically wasn't a green tide army in the first place). I've done the best with 6th Edition, playing Speed Freaks (Warboss Biker, attached to troop Nob Bikers). Next I would say was a Dread Mob, with 2 SAG attached to an elite Nob unit and 2 units of Lootas (Drop Pods usually wreak them). Strangely enough a Thraka army places 3rd on my list. And then there are 28 other army list, I would prefer over Green Tide. A Big Mek KFF with a Burna in a Battlewagon (Def Rolla) as part of a vehicle heavy force, is awesome. Protecting footsloggers still seems like a waste to me.

So yes, winning one game would never qualify this as the perfect tactic for a Green Tide, but it made me very aware of how much cover I was giving up for a HQ that as long as they have LOS, they will wreak that unit a Big Mek is in. Which is why I ask if anyone has done this, moving the Ork Boyz as a Wave - I was actually looking for feedback, not looking to get attacked because I presented something that is obviously crazy. As far as actually testing this with my group, it's not worth it (because I'm really not a Green Tide player), yes I have over 1k of shoota boyz, but if I even use 60 of them that's a lot for me in most of my force list.

The reason we don't trust your formula is that you're showing a marked failure in understanding how probability works.

The odds of a 7 or less on 2d6 is and always will be 7/12 or 21/36 as Jidmah showed.

 Sleg wrote:
Jidmah, I never attacked you. I was presenting a new way to run Green Tide - I asked if others have done this. You obviously did not, but processed to continue to say that you can't run a green tide without a KFF. That's NOT why I posted this thread. I put it up because I ran orks in 2 games without a KFF - because it was the only way I could do this was without the use of a KFF.
Also read the quote you quoted me, it's not 100 ork players, because most aren't ork players. At your store you have some dominating Ork players, I get that. It doesn't change the fact that Ork are NOT competitive in 6th.
And because I mistake Focus Fire for something else doesn't mean I don't know what it was.
Thank you for your imput about Green Tide List, but you don't have any problems using a Big Mek KFF and do not want to try something different - I understand that. I would really like to hear from those players that do.

Using cover is a new way to run a Green Tide? I'm pretty sure that's all armies in 5th edition. Nowadays you're just going to get Focus Fired. Have fun dealing with Manticores, Night Scythes, Punishers, etc. without your 5+ KFF save.

@sleg

The walking wall has been used, never by me. Because you are taking a slow army and making it slower. but those who have done it, used grots because they're cheaper meat shields. So if your opponent wants to get rid of the wall he's putting shots into models that are there to die, so your boys may live.

a single line of troops will bottle neck you more than terrain would, as you're really adding in a extra bottle neck. you still have to work through terrain, plus try to keep coherency by going around large buildings which can prove difficult. If you can't split the unit and reform on the other side of the building you end up pulling in a side of your wall which removes cover & slows down the models behind it.

I agree 2 games does not make a proper test as I've stated previously. If you've got some ocd for statistics a pen & paper can record some interesting data. You don't need a KFF to see if it would help or not, just tick off anytime you don't get a cover save when a KFF could have provided one. So you can try out the meat wall, keep some notes, and keep the same list for at least 10 games, preferably against different armies to see how it does.

rigeld2 wrote:
The reason we don't trust your formula is that you're showing a marked failure in understanding how probability works.
The odds of a 7 or less on 2d6 is and always will be 7/12 or 21/36 as Jidmah showed.

Odds of rolling a 7 or less is 12/21 possible outcomes. it can't be 7/12 because you can't roll a 1 with 2 dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
@sleg The walking wall has been used, never by me. Because you are taking a slow army and making it slower. but those who have done it, used grots because they're cheaper meat shields. So if your opponent wants to get rid of the wall he's putting shots into models that are there to die, so your boys may live.
a single line of troops will bottle neck you more than terrain would, as you're really adding in a extra bottle neck. you still have to work through terrain, plus try to keep coherency by going around large buildings which can prove difficult. If you can't split the unit and reform on the other side of the building you end up pulling in a side of your wall which removes cover & slows down the models behind it.
I agree 2 games does not make a proper test as I've stated previously. If you've got some ocd for statistics a pen & paper can record some interesting data. You don't need a KFF to see if it would help or not, just tick off anytime you don't get a cover save when a KFF could have provided one. So you can try out the meat wall, keep some notes, and keep the same list for at least 10 games, preferably against different armies to see how it does.

Yeah I was given the suggestion to take the full grot (33 models) and attach mad doc to them making them fearless and just run this wall straight at them. It is from my understanding the most common method of using Green Tide. It provides the same cover as Terrain and a KFF and they have to shoot all the Gretchins with FNP down to Mad Doc, if he survives he just joins the closest Ork Boyz Group and does the same thing. I'm not thrilled with it, he cost 160 points, but can give Lootas Cybork and saves the 30 point cost for a painboy in the Nob unit. plus the 120pts Gretchin unit saves 75 points from the Boyz, if I take 2 Gretchin units I just save 150 points which almost pays for Mad Doc alone. This method would do 2 things: 1 decrease the number of Boyz, if they drop below 100 it's no longer a Green Tide List. 2. Change the Tactic I presented completely. Even still 33 fearless Gretchins and Runtherd are certainly more of a shot absorber than 30 Ork Boyz without Fearless.

Still it all boils down to my method of playing, I will say if I do run a Green Tide it will be the Mad Doc/Gretchin method way before KFF providing footslogging unit 6" with 5+ cover. And NO I will not being giving every unit in the list cybork - only the ones I like. So I beg of you to not misquote me.

 Sleg wrote:


Odds of rolling a 7 or less is 12/21 possible outcomes. it can't be 7/12 because you can't roll a 1 with 2 dice.

This is not correct. Roll probabilities on 2D6 can be found here: http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/2_dice_rolls.htm. There are 36 possible outcomes from rolling 2D6, each with equal probability. Of these, 21 of them have value 7 or less. This means that the probability of rolling a 7 or less on 2D6 is 21/36, which reduces to 7/12. I can't even work backwards from your value to figure out what you might have done to compute it. How did you get 21 in the denominator?