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Again, it comes down the time issue. I buy the ancillary games because I like the models. If we happen to get a game in here or there, that's great. I don't have a vested interest in that (again, because I'm here for the models more so than the game) but if it happens, well sweet! But quite frankly, like I said before, most of these ancillary games get played a few times, in a basement or man cave, over cocktails.

If someone with more time than me wants to push another game, then chances are I already own some of it and will play. But that's what's great about 40k. The community already exists. I can pop in the LGS at literally any time and snag a game.

Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

 frozenwastes wrote:
And yet another game!

See what I mean?

Imagine if you picked a game you really liked and spent all that time locally demoing, networking, exchanging contact information, setting up events, etc.,.

If someone is interested in a particular game as a supplement to their 40k hobby (or because 40k is no longer working for them), I'd highly recommend picking one and running with it. Demoing 5+ different games all over the place isn't going to help a community develop for any one of them.

There is nothing wrong with getting people interested in multiple games. I picked a game I really liked (Malifaux) and I spent every Friday demoing and playing Malifaux, with the occasional Saturday event. I met Henchmen at conventions and online, I talked to some in Toledo that were interested in events, and got some guys from Grove City, Pennsylvania to come to some of my events. I built a small (7 people at most). I have spent countless hours demoing Malifaux, and because of the effort and time I put into that game I now have 4 to 5 people (haven't seen a few of my players in a few months) that were really excited to make the jump to M2E, but nothing we saw/tried scratched our itch. So we're going to stick with Malifaux Classic. I, personally, jumped ship because Wyrd wasn't a company I wanted to dedicate my time to as I thought they should have zigged when they zagged (still a fantastic group of guys there though). I joined the Bolt Action Sarge's program and I've been a demo for Bolt Action and we're picking it up as a sometimes game.

The largest community at my FLGS? Flames of War (not including Magic). There are easily 18 people playing Flames on a Saturday afternoon. And yet my little Friday has garnered local time as a rotating "skirmish" game schedule. We play what we want to play because we are people of varied tastes. Most of the guys that show up on Friday for w/e we're playing also show up on Saturday for Flames.

I also give about once a month Brushfire Demos, and when I get my Endless: Fantasy Tactics stuff I'll demo that every now and then (though I fething love that game, so I'll probably push it harder ). Some of us like introducing these games to people, and some of us like finding one game we love and being a die-hard about it. Cincy can attest to some of the pro-Wyrd comments I've made in the past. Hell, Alpharius said my Wyrd knickers were showing again

 cincydooley wrote:
Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

Facing that with our biggest LGS, got is some kind of irritation with GW and literally kicked them out.
Burned the bridge and salted the earth.
Still more than happy to let us play 40k but has added the policy that if you actually play 40k at the store that day he will give 5% off Privateer Press models.
A bit of a mixed message but I get where he is coming from.

 Talizvar wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

Facing that with our biggest LGS, got is some kind of irritation with GW and literally kicked them out.
Burned the bridge and salted the earth.
Still more than happy to let us play 40k but has added the policy that if you actually play 40k at the store that day he will give 5% off Privateer Press models.
A bit of a mixed message but I get where he is coming from.

I saw something like that recently! The store had a Hobbit starter on the shelf completely covered by a few Warmachine & Hordes 2-player starters.

 Talizvar wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

Facing that with our biggest LGS, got is some kind of irritation with GW and literally kicked them out.
Burned the bridge and salted the earth.
Still more than happy to let us play 40k but has added the policy that if you actually play 40k at the store that day he will give 5% off Privateer Press models.
A bit of a mixed message but I get where he is coming from.

See, that's an absolutely gakky attitude for a store to have, and would probably be enough to make me never play at that store. They're basically saying that if you want to spend your money on 40k, they don't want your money. Ignorant.

Again, that's one of my big things. I'm not going to tell anyone how to spend their money when I demo. Nor am I going to tell them that what they want to buy isn't worth their money. And that seems to be a HUGE anti-GW go to here that really peeves me.

cincydooley wrote:Again, it comes down the time issue.

Earlier in the thread you said that Infinity has less value to you because of how far you'd have to drive to get a game. Then over the last several pages, you've talked about all this time and effort you've spent on demoing all sorts of games. You could have picked your favorite and made some real progress on developing a community for it. You could have made the issue you cited with Infinity into a non-issue. It is a time issue. An issue of fracturing your time rather than focusing it and then complaining about the lack of Infinity opponents.

I buy the ancillary games because I like the models. If we happen to get a game in here or there, that's great. I don't have a vested interest in that (again, because I'm here for the models more so than the game) but if it happens, well sweet!

Then why in the world were you bashing the guy in Japan over how little he'd get to play with his KV3 vs the Sentinel? Why the double standard? He liked the model for the money more than the GW offering and you brought up him not being able to play as many games with it. But now we see that the standard you use for others isn't applied to yourself.

Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

Early on you will have that hurdle. Talking with the store in advance about being reciptive and timely with special orders was all I've needed to do. Then after there were 5 or 6 people playing and buying regularly, the store employee would start asking us for preorders and they started stocking some stuff. Now Warmachine is the single largest section in the store. But it started somewhere. And not by me or my friends demoing 5+ different games.

Alfndrate wrote:There is nothing wrong with getting people interested in multiple games.

You're right! Nothing at all wrong. However it's not a good plan if the issue is lack of local players for a given game. In fact, it's a bad approach if you're trying to deal with an issue of lack of players for a particular game

If anyone is having issues finding opponents for a given game, the wrong approach is to try to promote five different games. That's all I'm saying.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

Facing that with our biggest LGS, got is some kind of irritation with GW and literally kicked them out.
Burned the bridge and salted the earth.
Still more than happy to let us play 40k but has added the policy that if you actually play 40k at the store that day he will give 5% off Privateer Press models.
A bit of a mixed message but I get where he is coming from.

See, that's an absolutely gakky attitude for a store to have, and would probably be enough to make me never play at that store. They're basically saying that if you want to spend your money on 40k, they don't want your money. Ignorant.

Again, that's one of my big things. I'm not going to tell anyone how to spend their money when I demo. Nor am I going to tell them that what they want to buy isn't worth their money. And that seems to be a HUGE anti-GW go to here that really peeves me.

I guess you could read it as he doesn't want the customers money (Which is not true because of the offered discount, he clearly wants your money), or he doesn't want to give his money to GW which I can understand. He hasn't cut off the 40k community from playing, just seems tired of dealing with GW.

 cincydooley wrote:

See, that's an absolutely gakky attitude for a store to have, and would probably be enough to make me never play at that store. They're basically saying that if you want to spend your money on 40k, they don't want your money. Ignorant.

I think it's very generous. They're allowing people to play *for free* using a product they don't sell in the store. Then offering them an incentive to purchase a product they do sell. Seems smart rather than ignorant. They're not alienating people by banning the game and they're being smart about making a sales opportunity.

I'll attempt to expand.

 frozenwastes wrote:


Earlier in the thread you said that Infinity has less value to you because of how far you'd have to drive to get a game. Then over the last several pages, you've talked about all this time and effort you've spent on demoing all sorts of games. You could have picked your favorite and made some real progress on developing a community for it. You could have made the issue you cited with Infinity into a non-issue. It is a time issue. An issue of fracturing your time rather than focusing it and then complaining about the lack of Infinity opponents.

Honestly, my favorite is 40k followed by Freebooters. In that regard, I already have. I demo other games because I happen to have the stuff. I may not have made it very clear, but I have no real desire to be the one responsible for growing a game. I'm not at the LGS often enough to do so, nor would I want to consistently demo one game. I'm actually not that big a fan of infinity; it's a bit too book keepy for me. However, I love the models so I have payed it.

Then why in the world were you bashing the guy in Japan over how little he'd get to play with his KV3 vs the Sentinel? Why the double standard? He liked the model for the money more than the GW offering and you brought up him not being able to play as many games with it. But now we see that the standard you use for others isn't applied to yourself.

Honestly i didn't get bent out of shape until he decided he was the arbiter of what is and what isn't over priced. Then he tried to boil down which model a person should buy on, as he said "simple economics." Which, as I said, just isn't the case.

Early on you will have that hurdle. Talking with the store in advance about being reciptive and timely with special orders was all I've needed to do. Then after there were 5 or 6 people playing and buying regularly, the store employee would start asking us for preorders and they started stocking some stuff. Now Warmachine is the single largest section in the store. But it started somewhere. And not by me or my friends demoing 5+ different games.

You're much more devoted to pushing a game than I care to be. The one LGS that I have enough clout with to influence stocking is the one I've demoed a bunch of games at. We've looked at a bunch of different things that could be their T3 product line. Hence the multiple demoing. Nothing has drawn enough interest to warrant it.

We have vastly differing opinions on that particular LGS and their generosity. There isn't a chance I'd game there, even if they "let me". A 5% discount is a joke and, like I said before, is the precise attitude that permeates a great portion of the Privateer Community that really turns me off. Not from the game, but from the press ganders and page 5ers. Contrarily, I've never heard a henchmans primary be involve any "not-GW" slanting.

And the "no" product for sale in the store is kinda moot, when there are enough webstores that carry it.

Getting the LGS to carry it, is the chicken and egg question, shops are hessitant to invest in new systems if there is no community that plays, and players need a place to play and buy the system, so it usually comes down to the player to create some interest in the gamers to ask the shop owner to carry it.

Honestly i didn't get bent out of shape until he decided he was the arbiter of what is and what isn't over priced. Then he tried to boil down which model a person should buy on, as he said "simple economics." Which, as I said, just isn't the case.

Uhm, the KV-3 is cheaper than the sentinel that is the truth. I never said people should buy it, that is what you read into it.

@frozenwastes using Dust tactics vehicles for 40k, i like that idea

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.
!

And there you go. Bolded for emphasis. I'm prepared to drop it if you are.

If you don't want to buy anymore or want to buy other stuff, more power to you. I take offense to people that attempt to belittle how others spend their money.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.
!

And there you go. Bolded for emphasis. I'm prepared to drop it if you are.

If you don't want to buy anymore or want to buy other stuff, more power to you. I take offense to people that attempt to belittle how others spend their money.

It was not aimed at others, it was aimed at you, you are the one that attacks others that give options other than GW, i am "probably" longer a fan of GW then you are, but there are other systems that are cheaper without going into the "subjective" values of that system.

See this answer was without insults or namecalling, hope you can do the same.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I think it's probably that people care more about 40k and don't actually want to quit. They wish things were different and want to talk about where they think things went off the rails.

If it seems like the same points are brought up again and again, it's probably because it's humans reacting to the same situation again and again.

This sums it up for me, and for many others, I think.

I want to stay in the game, and like what the game has been in the past.

I think that the game is more and more about being a money grab, and less and less about being a game.

Worse, I think that the rules are being written, more and more often, to support the money grab over the game.

Yes, you can play older versions, or use older models - I still play Mordheim, and use models from all over the place to play it (some of them even by GW).

Or, I can buy Kings of War, and use my older GW models in a currently supported game with rules that I like. It is easier to find players of KoW than it is to find players of WHFB 3e.

But then... it is also easier, locally, to find players of AD&D Battle System than to find players of WHFB 3e....

I will admit - I had fun with WH40K - but I have no urge to play it these days. I can give reasons... but the truth is that it just does not engage me these days.

I had fun with WHFB - and found a game that gives me that same enjoyment. At my heart I am more about unit and maneuver based tactics than about unit skirmish tactics. (I am not saying that one or the other is better! I just enjoy the mechanics of the fantasy games better.)

The Auld Grump

 cincydooley wrote:
I'd love if Infinity and Malifaux had starter boxes.

Infinity does have starter boxes. They're actually labelled as such.

They're not starter sets because it's not worth doing (yes, I know that's being incredibly nitpicky on your word use). Doing a starter set yourself for Infinity is super cheap. Buy two starter boxes, download the completely free rules and completely free quickstart guide, which also includes all tokens and templates completely free, buy 3-4 D20s, and run some games.

No, the two boxes won't be perfectly balanced against each other. Neither are GW's starter sets, but it hasn't hurt their sales or use. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find two starter boxes for Infinity as badly matched as the Dark Angels and Chaos from Dark Vengeance.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.
!

And there you go. Bolded for emphasis. I'm prepared to drop it if you are.

If you don't want to buy anymore or want to buy other stuff, more power to you. I take offense to people that attempt to belittle how others spend their money.

It was not aimed at others, it was aimed at you, you are the one that attacks others that give options other than GW, i am "probably" longer a fan of GW then you are, but there are other systems that are cheaper without going into the "subjective" values of that system.

See this answer was without insults or namecalling, hope you can do the same.

Ahh, so belittling how I might choose to spend my money is okay. Got it. There are other systems that are cheaper. I agree. That is simple economics. As to what is a "better buy" or what is "overpriced" : completely subjective.

Quite frankly, I don't care if you're "probably a longer fan of GW" than I am. That has little to no bearing on it aside from the people that were fans of GW before they went public also seem to be the ones that take more offense that GW has changed how they do business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I'd love if Infinity and Malifaux had starter boxes.

Infinity does have starter boxes. They're actually labelled as such.

They're not starter sets because it's not worth doing (yes, I know that's being incredibly nitpicky on your word use). .

I actually did mean starter sets. Apologies for not making that clear. I think a 2P starter set with an included rulebook is a great asset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Jehen- your post in another thread has completely enlightened me as to where you're coming from. You feel like GW owes you something or you, as a gamer, have some sense of ownership in them.

That's the big difference. To me GW is a faceless company that makes some stuff I like. When I like it and its worth the money for me at that time, I buy it. When I don't like something or its more than I want to pay at that time, I don't buy it. GW doesn't owe me anything.

And Jehen- your post in another thread has completely enlightened me as to where you're coming from. You feel like GW owes you something or you, as a gamer, have some sense of ownership in them.

That's the big difference. To me GW is a faceless company that makes some stuff I like. When I like it and its worth the money for me at that time, I buy it. When I don't like something or its more than I want to pay at that time, I don't buy it. GW doesn't owe me anything.

It's Jehan by the way.

GW Doesn't owe me anything, it is just annoying to see how they gak on a whole generation of gamers that made them the company they are today, but that is a whole different discussion.

Personally, I don't have to buy much because I already own it. I've been gaming for nearly 20 years. I've got armies I've collected over the years and don't plan on picking up any more. I already have 6 40k armies ranging in size of 2-3,000 points, 3 fantasy armies ranging in size of 2,500 to 5,000 points, and a small force of about 80 points in a hordes army. I'm not looking to expand much more. I'm working through my back log and putting paint on my models. My general rule is if its not painted, it's not going to show up on the table.

I have no desire to learn a new system and am not interested in spending more money on a kick starter that nobody else in my community may or may not want to buy into. I'm not about to take the time to push them either because I can better spend my time doing something else like painting my toy soldiers, watch a movie, or spend time with my wife and family. Most of the gaming I am looking for is in a tournament because I can get three games in and go home.

 cincydooley wrote:
We have vastly differing opinions on that particular LGS and their generosity. There isn't a chance I'd game there, even if they "let me". A 5% discount is a joke and, like I said before, is the precise attitude that permeates a great portion of the Privateer Community that really turns me off. Not from the game, but from the press ganders and page 5ers. Contrarily, I've never heard a henchmans primary be involve any "not-GW" slanting.

Privateer actually tells their press gangers to never say anything bad about another game. They explicitly agree not to. If they do, go to PP's customer service page and tell them who the PG was, what the event they were running was and what they said. PP'll shut them up for you. If it's gamers at large, you're probably committing some sort of confirmation bias where you remember the exceptionally bad cases as being more prevalent than they are. While there are lots of ex-GW customers playing PP games, PP's been starting to pick up steam recruiting first time miniature wargamers at a greater and greater pace. I'm actually finding more and more people with no experience with GW and thus no opinion of GW.

I still don't get why you're insulted by a store owner deciding to still allow a given company's game to be played in their store even after they broke off their business relationship with that company. Perhaps you perceive an "attitude" where there is none. Instead, he's allowing the use of his resources (rented square footage) to allow those who want to continue to play. It should be fairly obvious and not at all nefarious that he wants to transition his existing customer base into customers of his new products. If a store local to me had a falling out with Privateer Press but still allowed people to player their games, but incentivized buying another company's stuff, I can't say it'd bother me at all. Why should I care whether a given store owner pats me on the head and approves of the game I've chosen?

I do get that no one likes being told the choices they are making are inferior ones, but it's also possible to be overly sensitive to the point where one thinks there's some sort of pervasive attitude when there isn't.

I havnt purchased anything from GW this year, and by the looks of it all i am going to be purchasing will be a box of Cadians, to convert for a Killteam event that my club is going to be running. And even then if i can find some better minis in the same scale i shall be using them instead.

Long story short: GW is too expensive for me. I may buy one or two things but with the rare exception these will be from ebay. I am a student, looking for a job, but unable to find one. And if GW believes that they can just take my money in those amounts, when there are games that are just as fun, if not more so, that are cheaper-I.E. Warmachines-then i will not be buying from them.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
We have vastly differing opinions on that particular LGS and their generosity. There isn't a chance I'd game there, even if they "let me". A 5% discount is a joke and, like I said before, is the precise attitude that permeates a great portion of the Privateer Community that really turns me off. Not from the game, but from the press ganders and page 5ers. Contrarily, I've never heard a henchmans primary be involve any "not-GW" slanting.

*snip*

Does this store owner allow people to order GW product through him? If not, then it's stupid to let GW games be played, but not to sell anything. If he'll order things for people that are willing to spend money in his shop on a game they play, then he can offer whatever lame gimmick he wants. If he won't even order GW product for his customers, then he deserves to watch those players come in with their new shiny MAN DOLLIES that they bought elsewhere because he refuses to get GW stock in (even if it's just an order for some tac marines).

I inadvertently did this at my old flgs. It was next to impossible to get stock in for any game the store owner didn't play. You'd order it, and you'd be lucky to see it in a month. In the span of 8 months I had (through Dakka) purchased 2 armies of 2k points or more (one army was my first army and I didn't have a place to play at that moment), started a Tyranid and Ork army of 1000 points each, and bought an 2,500 point Blood Angels army that I assembled and then sold off. All of that money wasn't going to his shop because there were 5 people playing 40k, and he didn't feel like getting in a little GW stock, but the 5 Warmahordes players could get their stock easier, they might have to wait 2 weeks instead of 4, but they got their stuff. The first thing I bought from his store was a 3rd edition Carnifex to paint, and the thing had a layer of dust on the box...

 cincydooley wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

So you're complaining that the Str10 model was killing guardsmen after you let it get into CC with them? And that Dark Reapers, a heavy weapons unit designed to destroy tanks, destroyed your tanks? Hmmm......

Honestly, I don't think the Wraithknight is THAT good. It's solid, for sure, but it's also a considerable amount of points (as are the Riptides).

Plus, there are plenty of recent instances of new models that, quite frankly, aren't that great (Tau Fliers, Grey Knight Carlos, DA Flyer, Maulerfiend, etc...)

It shot up my guys. I never got into CC. In fact I never killed a modal. I got tabled 2 turns. I was rolling poorly but that cant account for losing a rather large army in 2 freaking turns. After reading the codex there isn’t one rule some unit in Eldar doesn’t ignore or change and I see you missed the “I used 2 wraith knight and beat 3 other players whole armies.” 1 Tau 1 SM 1 CSM 1850 points whooped by a 800ish points. I didn’t loose a single wraith knight. Defend the game all you want its your right as a free man but I just can’t do it anymore. I placed in FOB and I am not going to finals. I cant justifying wasting my time driving 12 hours to get curb stomped.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

So you're complaining that the Str10 model was killing guardsmen after you let it get into CC with them? And that Dark Reapers, a heavy weapons unit designed to destroy tanks, destroyed your tanks? Hmmm......

Honestly, I don't think the Wraithknight is THAT good. It's solid, for sure, but it's also a considerable amount of points (as are the Riptides).

Plus, there are plenty of recent instances of new models that, quite frankly, aren't that great (Tau Fliers, Grey Knight Carlos, DA Flyer, Maulerfiend, etc...)

It shot up my guys. I never got into CC. In fact I never killed a modal. I got tabled 2 turns. I was rolling poorly but that cant account for losing a rather large army in 2 freaking turns. After reading the codex there isn’t one rule some unit in Eldar doesn’t ignore or change and I see you missed the “I used 2 wraith knight and beat 3 other players whole armies.” 1 Tau 1 SM 1 CSM 1850 points whooped by a 800ish points. I didn’t loose a single wraith knight. Defend the game all you want its your right as a free man but I just can’t do it anymore. I placed in FOB and I am not going to finals. I cant justifying wasting my time driving 12 hours to get curb stomped.

Oh, so the Monstrous Creature with the fantastic anti-infantry weapons killed your guard blobs. Shocking.

Unfortunately you're coming off a bit as a complainer. There haven't been too many complaints of the Wraithknights being OP that I've seen, particularly given their point cost. And quite frankly, if two wraithknights killed a whole 1850 tau army (which I'm not really buying) then that Tau player must be awful. With Tau shooting and only 2 targets, nuking a Wraithknight in one turn shouldn't have been a huge problem.

And something which will be a surprise to no-one, obviously not much of that money was going to the traders. OG Games have just announced they are not going to sell GW products any more. From their forum..

As you may not know, GW are going to stop all online retailers stocking GW products after Nov 21st unless they have a bricks and mortar store..
We have plans to open a store in 2014, but we are not going to rush this just for one supplier, who also has the most discounted products out there.
(despite having the worst margin)

We have struggled for months now with their ever decreasing range and hugely restrictive and ltd new release policies. This has led to many instances of us having to let customers down.
Combine this with the fact in order for us to compete with the crazy discounting out there, we basically sell GW products at break even if we are lucky.
We have decided to stop, and take all GW off sale as of today.

LM orders for club members will be honoured in the week after release if we can, but if you want a refund/credit instead please let me know..

We will carry on letting club members buy GW till the November deadline, if you have an account and its authorised as a club account, only these accounts will be able to view the GW products on the sight from now on (you must be logged in)..

Sorry to hear that Ol, hope you wont take too much of a financial hit from all this.

We lost money selling GW (or broke even at best) so it actually benefits us, until the crazy discounting stops, I can see many other retailers curtailing their GW stock levels.
Especially now as GW make it very hard for you to order anything in on demand, they want you to have everything in stock, which of course can then really hurt you with the discount war out there...

Will be interesting to see if other companies follow suit? Obviously OG games sell a lot of things besides miniatures so perhaps it was an easier choice for them.

 Pacific wrote:
And something which will be a surprise to no-one, obviously not much of that money was going to the traders. OG Games have just announced they are not going to sell GW products any more. From their forum..

As you may not know, GW are going to stop all online retailers stocking GW products after Nov 21st unless they have a bricks and mortar store..
We have plans to open a store in 2014, but we are not going to rush this just for one supplier, who also has the most discounted products out there.
(despite having the worst margin)

We have struggled for months now with their ever decreasing range and hugely restrictive and ltd new release policies. This has led to many instances of us having to let customers down.
Combine this with the fact in order for us to compete with the crazy discounting out there, we basically sell GW products at break even if we are lucky.
We have decided to stop, and take all GW off sale as of today.

LM orders for club members will be honoured in the week after release if we can, but if you want a refund/credit instead please let me know..

We will carry on letting club members buy GW till the November deadline, if you have an account and its authorised as a club account, only these accounts will be able to view the GW products on the sight from now on (you must be logged in)..

Sorry to hear that Ol, hope you wont take too much of a financial hit from all this.

We lost money selling GW (or broke even at best) so it actually benefits us, until the crazy discounting stops, I can see many other retailers curtailing their GW stock levels.
Especially now as GW make it very hard for you to order anything in on demand, they want you to have everything in stock, which of course can then really hurt you with the discount war out there...

Will be interesting to see if other companies follow suit? Obviously OG games sell a lot of things besides miniatures so perhaps it was an easier choice for them.

Wouldn't this be better and more relevant in the GW annual report thread ?

 cincydooley wrote:
See, that's an absolutely gakky attitude for a store to have, and would probably be enough to make me never play at that store. They're basically saying that if you want to spend your money on 40k, they don't want your money. Ignorant.

Try a different viewpoint:
The store owner "likes" his gamers of all types in the store.

He has had a long history of hating how GW treated him:
-No packing slips: so he has no idea until the end of the count what was short shipped but they took the full amount of what he paid. (sometimes did direct pickup so could have asked there, EVERYONE does packing slips except them).
-Being told that he needed to have X amount of shelf space for GW if he was to get the order he wanted or it would be limited.
-Decided to pay for the "new" paint rack only to have the "new, new" rack come out and he had to get it.
-Told he had to pay up-front with credit card because his volume was not big enough.
-Placed orders and had the manager tell him what he "should" be ordering and if he insisted, he may not get what he wanted for quite some time...
-Last straw was when he had to wait a couple weeks for 6th edition stuff to be sent to him with no explanation.
-Received multiple phone calls from GW demanding "where are his orders?" and him saying repeatedly "I no longer wish to deal with your company and have turned to more customer friendly competitors". They called multiple times refusing to acknowledge that he no longer wanted them.
- Regional sales manager came to visit (2 months after no orders). Owner outlined the practices and behavior he did not like. Manager said to him that GW practices are proven and should have no bearing on his need to buy their products. Owner said; "Unless you can show any number of industry standard customer service, we have nothing to talk about. You have your own business and you keep insisting on telling me how to run mine: take a hike.".

He wants our money, he does not want to deal with GW.
He has made the business decision that the cost of business dealing with GW is not worth it to him.
Not so ignorant to me.

This is not the first store to get all bent out of shape, see link of less restrained rants:
http://natfka.blogspot.ca/2013/02/direct-only-release-and-retailers.html

Side note:
We have a large store near multiple universities selling a HUGE volume of GW, was told their Apocalypse orders would have many items on back order, they said "If these shelves with your product go empty, we have another supplier that will be happy to fill them permanently... your choice.", I was told they get everything they ordered.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

So you're complaining that the Str10 model was killing guardsmen after you let it get into CC with them? And that Dark Reapers, a heavy weapons unit designed to destroy tanks, destroyed your tanks? Hmmm......

Honestly, I don't think the Wraithknight is THAT good. It's solid, for sure, but it's also a considerable amount of points (as are the Riptides).

Plus, there are plenty of recent instances of new models that, quite frankly, aren't that great (Tau Fliers, Grey Knight Carlos, DA Flyer, Maulerfiend, etc...)

It shot up my guys. I never got into CC. In fact I never killed a modal. I got tabled 2 turns. I was rolling poorly but that cant account for losing a rather large army in 2 freaking turns. After reading the codex there isn’t one rule some unit in Eldar doesn’t ignore or change and I see you missed the “I used 2 wraith knight and beat 3 other players whole armies.” 1 Tau 1 SM 1 CSM 1850 points whooped by a 800ish points. I didn’t loose a single wraith knight. Defend the game all you want its your right as a free man but I just can’t do it anymore. I placed in FOB and I am not going to finals. I cant justifying wasting my time driving 12 hours to get curb stomped.

Oh, so the Monstrous Creature with the fantastic anti-infantry weapons killed your guard blobs. Shocking.

Unfortunately you're coming off a bit as a complainer. There haven't been too many complaints of the Wraithknights being OP that I've seen, particularly given their point cost. And quite frankly, if two wraithknights killed a whole 1850 tau army (which I'm not really buying) then that Tau player must be awful. With Tau shooting and only 2 targets, nuking a Wraithknight in one turn shouldn't have been a huge problem.

Don’t believe me it doesn’t matter, at all. All it honestly takes is enough people just like me to give up and throw in the towel. I am a big fan of 40k. I have a 40k servo skull tattoo to prove it. I have been playing since 3rd. I can’t anymore justify the expenditure of cash to play a game that doesn’t equal fun anymore to me. I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan. I bought my first 500 points for less then 100$ including codex. Now you can’t buy 500 points for that at all. I met my best friends playing this game. One of them quit after he had played for 20 years the other is barely playing. I cant force myself to sell my Krieg, Orks, or DA but I packed them up after FOB and placed them in storage. I started looking for new games to get my wargaming fix. Call me a complainer all you want you clearly have no idea how business works. If no one complains then companies assume what they are doing is what people want. Its simple and if you think I am joking I will PM you the number to the purchasing department of a major surgical hospital and you ask that guy (he is me).

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan.

I'm not being funny mate, but unless you have more kids than the Waltons, how is that possible?

I earn less than the national average being a northern monkey, but after all the bills I'm left with about $700 a month totally spare, I generally spend about half that boozing (I'm getting old) and put a little away, surely if you earn more than the national average you aren't living month to month?

If you are, you are extremely irresponsible, if you arent, you can clearly afford to spend a couple hundred bucks on some models. I find it staggering that anybody the wrong side of 25 doesn't put at least a little away each month, what if you lose your job or something?

Even If I have a rough month, I've managed to save at least $50, I don't think I have emptied my bank balance in about a decade.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:

Don’t believe me it doesn’t matter, at all. All it honestly takes is enough people just like me to give up and throw in the towel. I am a big fan of 40k. I have a 40k servo skull tattoo to prove it.

We can discuss your questionable life choices in the Off Topic thread if you'd like.

I have been playing since 3rd. I can’t anymore justify the expenditure of cash to play a game that doesn’t equal fun anymore to me.

So its no longer fun because you got tabled for the first time in your life? Sounds like sour grapes.

I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan.

Well, if this is true, AND you live in Idaho, you're doing something wrong. Incredibly low cost of living + "higher than average income" (which would place you above fiddy gees a year) and you'd need to take a loan? You may want to look at some of your finances and identify the trouble spots. High end call girls?

I cant force myself to sell my Krieg, Orks, or DA but I packed them up after FOB and placed them in storage.

Because you're a sore loser? I mean seriously. You have three armies. You got beat. Oh no. The sky MUST be falling. Adapt your game, brah, if you're as good an army general as you seem to think you are.

Call me a complainer all you want

Complainer

...you clearly have no idea how business works. If no one complains then companies assume what they are doing is what people want. Its simple and if you think I am joking I will PM you the number to the purchasing department of a major surgical hospital and you ask that guy (he is me).

Gotta be honest, I'm not even sure what this last little gem of a sentence means. What am I supposed to ask you? About ordering surgical supplies? Sweet. I could use a nice big box of latex surgical gloves for airbrushing. I'll also take some surgical loupes if you can get me a pair on the cheap. No offense, my man, but just because you're in sales doesn't mean you know anything about business. We've got sales people two floors down. They can sell the gak out of the products they're selling. But none of them know how to control growth, or introduce a new stream of revenue, or even upgrade their sales system.

mattyrm wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan.

I'm not being funny mate, but unless you have more kids than the Waltons, how is that possible?

I earn less than the national average being a northern monkey, but after all the bills I'm left with about $700 a month totally spare, I generally spend about half that boozing (I'm getting old) and put a little away, surely if you earn more than the national average you aren't living month to month?

If you are, you are extremely irresponsible, if you arent, you can clearly afford to spend a couple hundred bucks on some models. I find it staggering that anybody the wrong side of 25 doesn't put at least a little away each month, what if you lose your job or something?

Even If I have a rough month, I've managed to save at least $50, I don't think I have emptied my bank balance in about a decade.

I have two kids a fiancé who is in college and doesn’t work. I also like many people have a lot of college debt. The point was that the cost has finally eclipsed the benefits.

cincydooley wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:

Don’t believe me it doesn’t matter, at all. All it honestly takes is enough people just like me to give up and throw in the towel. I am a big fan of 40k. I have a 40k servo skull tattoo to prove it.

We can discuss your questionable life choices in the Off Topic thread if you'd like.

I have been playing since 3rd. I can’t anymore justify the expenditure of cash to play a game that doesn’t equal fun anymore to me.

So its no longer fun because you got tabled for the first time in your life? Sounds like sour grapes.

I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan.

Well, if this is true, AND you live in Idaho, you're doing something wrong. Incredibly low cost of living + "higher than average income" (which would place you above fiddy gees a year) and you'd need to take a loan? You may want to look at some of your finances and identify the trouble spots. High end call girls?

I cant force myself to sell my Krieg, Orks, or DA but I packed them up after FOB and placed them in storage.

Because you're a sore loser? I mean seriously. You have three armies. You got beat. Oh no. The sky MUST be falling. Adapt your game, brah, if you're as good an army general as you seem to think you are.

Call me a complainer all you want

Complainer

...you clearly have no idea how business works. If no one complains then companies assume what they are doing is what people want. Its simple and if you think I am joking I will PM you the number to the purchasing department of a major surgical hospital and you ask that guy (he is me).

Gotta be honest, I'm not even sure what this last little gem of a sentence means. What am I supposed to ask you? About ordering surgical supplies? Sweet. I could use a nice big box of latex surgical gloves for airbrushing. I'll also take some surgical loupes if you can get me a pair on the cheap. No offense, my man, but just because you're in sales doesn't mean you know anything about business. We've got sales people two floors down. They can sell the gak out of the products they're selling. But none of them know how to control growth, or introduce a new stream of revenue, or even upgrade their sales system.

At this point you’re not arguing the points of the game or the faults just personal attacks. I guess that’s the internet for you. All I tried to say was how I felt. You know the forum and such. Hope you have many fun years playing GW games. I know I will continue playing the ones I enjoy that they stopped supporting.

And yet you won't play the game that they're still supporting because you got tabled?

Your logic is mind blowing, my man.

Additionally, I have plenty of college debt from 4 years of private undergrad and 2 years of private graduate work and am married to a woman we've paid cash to put through $22k grad school, so you're not alone there.

Honestly. Had you not come off as a whiny complainer that you beat and quit (I mean, it sounds like you basically rage quit 40k) it would have been a lot easier to take anything you say seriously.