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 lord_blackfang wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I doubt GW is going to go to all the trouble of making new vet kits just to screw them on the rules. I don't think GW is going to break it's trend of the news models being the best, although it would be a hell of a time for them to decide to write a balanced codex.

The "trend" is closer to the opposite. Riptide aside, a lot of the new shiny toys have subpar rules.

This right here! If anything, the trend is making decently powered units (from a game balance stand point) that are prohibitively points-heavy, thus killing any desire to field them. Its not that the Tau, Eldar, and DA flyers are bad exactly, its just that the points are far too high for the amount of damage and/or disruption they can provide.

Looks to me the new Bolters are modeled with proper holes in the barrels. Looking at the Tac Squad pic an some of the other stuff the holes are very even with an evenly rounded lip. It's more noticable in the Heavy Bolter barrels on the Centurions.

Yay! No more drilling!

The heavy bolters in the existing devastator box are like that. I'd rather they weren't, because the two halves don't always line up nicely, so you have to use a bit of green stuff. I'd rather just drill them.

Does anyone have the BT pic saved to repost? When will people learn you can't hotlink 4chan...

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Does anyone have the BT pic saved to repost? When will people learn you can't hotlink 4chan...

Second!

Here's a thought, if grav guns are able to wound based on armour save, that implies they have a STR value.

I therefore wonder if treating the target's save as toughness works for Instant Death, similar to Darkstrider's wargear. If so, the grav gun only needs to be S4 to one-shot a Riptide and many other MCs.

They wouldn't put that in, would they...?

ShottyScotty wrote:

Lookie Lookie

Umm.. I'm just wondering, what guns are those? Big-ass grav guns?

 Fezman wrote:
Here's a thought, if grav guns are able to wound based on armour save, that implies they have a STR value.

I therefore wonder if treating the target's save as toughness works for Instant Death, similar to Darkstrider's wargear. If so, the grav gun only needs to be S4 to one-shot a Riptide and many other MCs.

They wouldn't put that in, would they...?

I hope they don't do that. The fluff on grav guns is able to kill light cultists and guardsmen as well as big tanks and riptides. I personally like the way HH: Betrayal did it: Concussive, haywire, and the target must take strength test or suffer wound, AP 4, and causes small(grav gun)/large blast(grav cannon) size difficult and dangerous terrain. I would love this if they ported it into 40k.

 prowla wrote:

ShottyScotty wrote:

Lookie Lookie

Umm.. I'm just wondering, what guns are those? Big-ass grav guns?

I thought that they were rocket launchers.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Does anyone have the BT pic saved to repost? When will people learn you can't hotlink 4chan...

This small pic?

 Fezman wrote:
Here's a thought, if grav guns are able to wound based on armour save, that implies they have a STR value.
I therefore wonder if treating the target's save as toughness works for Instant Death, similar to Darkstrider's wargear. If so, the grav gun only needs to be S4 to one-shot a Riptide and many other MCs.
They wouldn't put that in, would they...?

I compare it to Abyssal Staff: That one has S8 and rolls against LD. It does not affect vehicles and ID is still checked with Toughness.

In my opinion it will probably be long ranged, and just one shot.
This weapon might be the counter to high-T low-Save MC's and Characters that we have been seeing.
It would beat Plasma at T6 with a 2+
Melta has a short range
Krak-missiles don't work well against 2+

If they made it short-range, I would prefer Melta-weapons.
If they gave it rapid fire, plasma would be almost useless.

Comparing it to the other special weapons also makes me believe it will be S5, so it would have a use against 3+ saves compared to plasma.
So for my prediction:

Grav pistol: 12" S5, AP2 | Pistol, Grav
Grav gun: 24" S5, AP2 | Assault 1, Grav
Grav Cannon: 36 or 48" S5, AP2 | Heavy 1, Grav

Grav: When rolling to wounds, roll against the armour save instead of Toughness.

And with S5 they can also glance quite some vehicles.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Does anyone have the BT pic saved to repost? When will people learn you can't hotlink 4chan...

This small pic?

Umm.. I'm just wondering, what guns are those? Big-ass grav guns?

 Kingsley wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
The problem this codex will have is the same as the DA and to a lesser extent the CSM dex. They are still expensive guys in 3+ armor who will die in droves to the most popular lists.

Eldar
CSM Hell Turkey Spam
Flying Circus Daemons
Riptide heavy Tau

Those lists shred MEQ armies, it's almost like the design studio designed the codices to be good at MEQ killing as a base line , and so a dex with the basic Marine as it's main component will be hard pressed to win this edition. I can't see how they will get around that problem with this codex.

Not that I won't be playing it! My Heresy Era Salamanders are already getting built and primed for this release.

. Similarly, Riptides are certainly a powerful unit-- but they are expensive and vulnerable to plasma, which Marine armies can bring in droves. I'm confident that Marines will be just fine in the new edition.

Riptides are anything but expensive. 185 points (the minimum go-to configuration) is the same as the price for a current C:SM Tactical Squad with 10 men.

In addition, the only unit in C:SM that can effectively spam plasma is Sternguard, and they need a drop pod so they don't get popped minutes into the game. At that point you're looking at 320+ points for the unit. Those Riptides aren't so expensive now, are they?

Seriously, the only reliable counters Marines have to a Riptide is bringing Tri-Las Preds in triples, Devastator Squads with Lascannons in triples and Sternguard with Combi-Plasma spam. Notice how all of them cost 2 or 3 times what they pay for a Riptide and can only kill one a turn. Sure, you can tie it up in CC - but you'll never get there if he JSJ's at the back of the board with his infinite range pie plate gun.

Unless you've got a suitable competitive list Marines are screwed if they come up against double/triple Riptide and in hot water if they have to face even one.

You haven't seen the rules in the codex yet.

For all you know, the Vanguards may be able to chew through a riptide with a powerfist/thunderhammer or two in one turn and be less than 185pts.

The Hunter may be the ideal counter to helldrakes.

Waveserpants may drop like flies to grav guns....

Seriously, worry about how the army is going to deal with such things WHEN you have read the rules and are not just guessing them.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Riptides are anything but expensive. 185 points (the minimum go-to configuration) is the same as the price for a current C:SM Tactical Squad with 10 men.

That's pretty expensive. They bring one model, I bring ten (with upgrades)?

 Mr.Omega wrote:
In addition, the only unit in C:SM that can effectively spam plasma is Sternguard, and they need a drop pod so they don't get popped minutes into the game. At that point you're looking at 320+ points for the unit. Those Riptides aren't so expensive now, are they?

You can also take 4 plasma guns on Command Squads, take combi-plasmas and plasma guns in Tactical Squads, take Razorbacks with lascannons and TL plasmas, etc.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Seriously, the only reliable counters Marines have to a Riptide is bringing Tri-Las Preds in triples, Devastator Squads with Lascannons in triples and Sternguard with Combi-Plasma spam. Notice how all of them cost 2 or 3 times what they pay for a Riptide and can only kill one a turn. Sure, you can tie it up in CC - but you'll never get there if he JSJ's at the back of the board with his infinite range pie plate gun.

Pie plates generally aren't that good. If you space your models correctly and use cover, the ion accelerator is a bit of a "whatever" level weapon-- and then the Riptide has to get closer to be effective, and your meltas and plasmas can chew it up. If I see a Riptide sitting in the back firing its ion accelerator every turn, I just straight up ignore it. It will never kill enough to justify its price if I'm using the Movement phase (the most important phase in the game) effectively. It's when Riptides play more aggressively and use their secondary weapons and assault threat that I have to be concerned-- but thankfully in that case they're vulnerable to my melta, plasma, and assault threats.

I generally like seeing Riptides on the table when I play Marines. Hordes of Fire Warriors are much harder to deal with.

Kangodo wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
Here's a thought, if grav guns are able to wound based on armour save, that implies they have a STR value.
I therefore wonder if treating the target's save as toughness works for Instant Death, similar to Darkstrider's wargear. If so, the grav gun only needs to be S4 to one-shot a Riptide and many other MCs.
They wouldn't put that in, would they...?

I compare it to Abyssal Staff: That one has S8 and rolls against LD. It does not affect vehicles and ID is still checked with Toughness.

In my opinion it will probably be long ranged, and just one shot.
This weapon might be the counter to high-T low-Save MC's and Characters that we have been seeing.
It would beat Plasma at T6 with a 2+
Melta has a short range
Krak-missiles don't work well against 2+

If they made it short-range, I would prefer Melta-weapons.
If they gave it rapid fire, plasma would be almost useless.

Comparing it to the other special weapons also makes me believe it will be S5, so it would have a use against 3+ saves compared to plasma.
So for my prediction:

Grav pistol: 12" S5, AP2 | Pistol, Grav
Grav gun: 24" S5, AP2 | Assault 1, Grav
Grav Cannon: 36 or 48" S5, AP2 | Heavy 1, Grav

Grav: When rolling to wounds, roll against the armour save instead of Toughness.

And with S5 they can also glance quite some vehicles.

I foresee grav weapons to be a bit more powerful than that. I suspect the Grav Cannon will be a blast or multi-shot weapon, since the battle report had 3 centurions killing a gak-load of plague marines in a single round. I also suspect the AP to be 1 since physical armour should offer no protection against gravity, and actually appears to make it more powerful.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You haven't seen the rules in the codex yet.

For all you know, the Vanguards may be able to chew through a riptide with a powerfist/thunderhammer or two in one turn and be less than 185pts.

The Hunter may be the ideal counter to helldrakes.

Waveserpants may drop like flies to grav guns....

Seriously, worry about how the army is going to deal with such things WHEN you have read the rules and are not just guessing them.

But how else will we pass the next three weeks...?

As it stands I think (solely based on the rumours) that GW are thinking "whoops, we've painted ourselves into a corner here." Every book that's coming out has obvious ways to inflict heavy damage on the game's flagship army. They are therefore loading said army's book with counters.

Drakes gobbling up your marines? No problem, have a tank that can shoot down two of them at once. Riptides annoying you? Zap them with a grav gun and you can knock them over with a spitball. Etc, etc.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I foresee grav weapons to be a bit more powerful than that. I suspect the Grav Cannon will be a blast or multi-shot weapon, since the battle report had 3 centurions killing a gak-load of plague marines in a single round. I also suspect the AP to be 1 since physical armour should offer no protection against gravity, and actually appears to make it more powerful.

True, it could be Heavy 2 or Blast and cost around 20-30 points.
I actually thought about it being a blast, but thought that it would be too strong.
Your post made me realise that we also have small blasts, my mind was thinking: "blast = 5 inch" Stupid me.

I thought the AP2 was already rumoured as being the stat, so that's why I gave them AP2.
S5 is because they were indeed described as killing a load of MEQ's, and S5 is needed to wound them on a 2+

Don't HS-Centurions have 2 TL-HB's?
That would give them 2 TL-Grav Cannons.
Which could mean that each Centurion can hit 8 marines with his cannon.
That are 4 marines per blast, since those battle-reports try to make them look stronger than they are and I would almost bet my collection on it that they grouped all marines in B2B-contact.
8 marines, 2+ to wound and no armour-save result in 7 dead marines on average.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Agreed, the Vet squads look fantastic. Now it may just be the picture but does the Sternguard Sgt. have a combi-pistol or is that supposed to be a new plasma pistol?

It's just a plasma pistol.

 insaniak wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Agreed, the Vet squads look fantastic. Now it may just be the picture but does the Sternguard Sgt. have a combi-pistol or is that supposed to be a new plasma pistol?

It's just a plasma pistol.

Yes, it just has some form of plate over the coils by the looks of things.

 Nut's Chiropractor wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Agreed, the Vet squads look fantastic. Now it may just be the picture but does the Sternguard Sgt. have a combi-pistol or is that supposed to be a new plasma pistol?

It's just a plasma pistol.

Yes, it just has some form of plate over the coils by the looks of things.

Looks a bit like the style they use for CSM plasma weaponry.

So, you climb into this big suit of armor for your armor...and it's only armored from the FRONT?!

Because, you know, nobody ever flanks or infiltrates behind you in the 41st millennium. The only thing stupider would be if you climbed into an even bigger suit, but hung off the front of it like Baby Bjorn The Fell Handed or something... Oh, wait...

The lulz

No, I disagree that ugly models with great rules just automatically make it into lists. Maybe for WAAC players (I'm the opposite). Maybe for tournament players (generally not folks I want to game with - no offense).

I have a Dreadknight, I had to modify it heavily before I could bring myself to field it. I have three storm talons - from Russia. They were $7 apiece, plus some GW bitz - and they look better.
I have a Stormraven in the box awaiting inspiration - but I converted a proxy out of a valkyrie for now. I don't think I've ever fielded it.

Sorry - if I'm going to put that much time into a hobby with a strong aesthetic aspect...I want the models I spend my time and cash on, to look good. Just my thoughts.

So, anyone who dont like the centurions might find FWs new release interresting.
Mechanicus battle automatons.

 Fayric wrote:
So, anyone who dont like the centurions might find FWs new release interresting.
Mechanicus battle automatons.

They would be a nice stand-in, but a very pricey one at that. Certainly more than I could afford.

I think with Sternguard we hit the 50$ per single sprue mark.

 Fayric wrote:
So, anyone who dont like the centurions might find FWs new release interresting.
Mechanicus battle automatons.

Those look way to big to work as a replacement.

I sure hope the non pistol grav guns are blast...

I hope the grav guns come with skyfire. Hahaha...that would be awesome.

Kangodo wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I foresee grav weapons to be a bit more powerful than that. I suspect the Grav Cannon will be a blast or multi-shot weapon, since the battle report had 3 centurions killing a gak-load of plague marines in a single round. I also suspect the AP to be 1 since physical armour should offer no protection against gravity, and actually appears to make it more powerful.

True, it could be Heavy 2 or Blast and cost around 20-30 points.
I actually thought about it being a blast, but thought that it would be too strong.
Your post made me realise that we also have small blasts, my mind was thinking: "blast = 5 inch" Stupid me.

I thought the AP2 was already rumoured as being the stat, so that's why I gave them AP2.
S5 is because they were indeed described as killing a load of MEQ's, and S5 is needed to wound them on a 2+

Don't HS-Centurions have 2 TL-HB's?
That would give them 2 TL-Grav Cannons.
Which could mean that each Centurion can hit 8 marines with his cannon.
That are 4 marines per blast, since those battle-reports try to make them look stronger than they are and I would almost bet my collection on it that they grouped all marines in B2B-contact.
8 marines, 2+ to wound and no armour-save result in 7 dead marines on average.

ST5 only wounds MEQ on 3+ and plague marines on a 4+. From the rumors, the grav-cannon armed centurions only have a single gun but have something called a grav amp that gives To Wound rerolls or something. I am definitely intrigued, because one of my wish lists for this codex was some sort of new weapon type because the las/melta/plasma/bolter/flamer selections were getting kind of boring.

 VoidAngel wrote:
I hope the grav guns come with skyfire. Hahaha...that would be awesome.

It would be pretty cool and flavorful if they would make FMCs rerolling grounding tests or something like that.