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 Kirasu wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.

(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...

Somehow I think having to pay another 50$ to use your army is something to worry about.

Assuming you can even get a copy of it. GW is still bouncing around a bit with regards to publishing books in print, iBook, and eBook.

 6^ wrote:
Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.

oh thats lovely, something that makes one of the few NOT bs options in a codex with more than enough rubbish obsolete yay.. so itll be back to tripple drakes...
MoN isnt cheap nor undercosted, it costs twice as much per model as the others do, even up to 3x ... so yeah lets penalise it further. and on some units slaneesh is nice, swing before marines that kind of thing.

sockwithaticket wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.

(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...

I wouldn't worry, I'd be fuming about such a naked cash grab. 'Oh, sorry guys, we just stiffed your army in the super expensive new codex. But, wait, we're restoring its viability with this similarly expensive smaller book in a few months.'

And this being GW, this surprises you?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.

(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...

I wouldn't worry, I'd be fuming about such a naked cash grab. 'Oh, sorry guys, we just stiffed your army in the super expensive new codex. But, wait, we're restoring its viability with this similarly expensive smaller book in a few months.'

And this being GW, this surprises you?

Not in the least, but it still grates hard and confirms my decision to buy the very few things I want off ebay.

 6^ wrote:
What is the problem with fielding a tactical squad in your white scars army? DTs are gaining scout too. Bikes may be their claim to fame but it's hardly all they do. You can still field 4 bike squadrons if you want. I would go so far as to say an all bikes white scars is unfluffy.

Say it isn't fluffy all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is fluffy. Furthermore Dedicated Transports only get Scout with Khan, and again do nothing to mitigate the huge problem that you seem to be missing here. The issue is that many people have all bike White Scars armies, and for the first time in a very long time GW have released the new book and made the armies of loads of players totally unplayable. Maybe to you it isn't a big deal, but to those of us that have spent a lot of money on the models and a lot of time painting them it is a very big deal that we now can't use them.

And to those above saying we're getting a supplement soon, when your army requires a €50 Codex and a €39 supplement to play you come back and tell me it's ok and it doesn't bother you one bit.

sockwithaticket wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.

(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...

I wouldn't worry, I'd be fuming about such a naked cash grab. 'Oh, sorry guys, we just stiffed your army in the super expensive new codex. But, wait, we're restoring its viability with this similarly expensive smaller book in a few months.'

And this being GW, this surprises you?

Not in the least, but it still grates hard and confirms my decision to buy the very few things I want off ebay.

Same here dude. I haven't bought anything from GW directly since 2011...

 Formosa wrote:
Prppetros, please don't use text talk, it makes you look stpd and lzy.

Ot, if these changes are true then I'm going to enjoy useing my crimson fists again.

Insults an individual for using text short hand...proceeds to use forum short hand.
Hypocrisy is amusing.

Any who, I am interested to see if there are new wargear choices. Like relics or banners and such. I wonder if power weapons will stay just power weapons or will marines need to choose from only a few different types.

From what I can see it is all shaping up fairly well I must say.

Vanguard and Sternguard coming down in price sounds great.

I always liked those two units, it was always just a problem that a force that was heavy with them had few scoring units unless you took Pedro.

And then there was the fact that you still had to take two Tactical squads, and that tactical squads were just TERRIBLE. Overcosted, required hoops to be jumped through just to be useful, schizophrenic with the special and heavy weapon, and just so darn "ok at everything but not good at any one thing" that I just up and bailed to SW and haven't really looked back since (except for bike armies).

AND THEN there was the whole fact that Vanguard were waaaaay overcosted. 30 pts for a 3+ one wound model with a jump pack was just silly, and has only gotten sillier with the proliferation of AP3 stuff. Getting them down to around 25 pts with the jump pack will make them somewhat viable.

I would love for Kantor and Shrike to make Sternguard and Vanguard troops respectively, but it sounds like the former will only happen as scoring, and the latter seemingly won't happen at all. Oh well, at least they'll be viable to field, even if they aren't straight up troops.

Bolter Drill on all my Tactical Marines? Cool!

Sternguard, the Space Marine veterans who are more disciplined and skilled than Tactical Marines, don't get it? What?

I kind of get it from a game balance perspective, but it doesn't make a lick of sense for tactical Marines to be better shots than veterans.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Bolter Drill on all my Tactical Marines? Cool!

Sternguard, the Space Marine veterans who are more disciplined and skilled than Tactical Marines, don't get it? What?

I kind of get it from a game balance perspective, but it doesn't make a lick of sense for tactical Marines to be better shots than veterans.

I read the formatted version of the Q&A that was linked to earlier, and the wording there implies Sternguard will get Bolter Drill, just not for their special ammo(which makes sense in respect that the special ammo likely requires a different skillset to fire than the regular bolter ammo they'd been training with since they were Scouts).

NickTheButcher wrote:It's undercosted. If it were "Balanced" you would see other marks used. Now when you take MoN you risk grav spam making other cheaper marks or unmarked perhaps worth considering.

Not really. It's pretty externally balanced for its point cost. It may not be internally balanced, but that has more to do with the others being bad values than MoN being out of whack.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Youngblood13 wrote:
Where is that Q & A from?

40k Radio's Facebook. I've been turning it into a proper Q&A though on Heresy Online.

Checked out your thread there. Thanks for doing that work!

The focus has been on BT and the Centurions, but the price drops on a lot of the units are really encouraging. With point costs dropping apparently across the board, it's probably a fairly safe bet that Scout Bikers will be lower cost, too. The more I read about the other stuff, the more excited I am.

Thanks again.

Youngblood13 wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Youngblood13 wrote:
Where is that Q & A from?

40k Radio's Facebook. I've been turning it into a proper Q&A though on Heresy Online.

Checked out your thread there. Thanks for doing that work!

The focus has been on BT and the Centurions, but the price drops on a lot of the units are really encouraging. With point costs dropping apparently across the board, it's probably a fairly safe bet that Scout Bikers will be lower cost, too. The more I read about the other stuff, the more excited I am.

Thanks again.

The BT players keep monopolizing the FB comments.

Yay! I'll finally have a use for my 3 Landspeeder Storms that are in my closet still in box

I will have to convert another one to go with my two troop choices!

If the ultramarine rumors are true I am extremely glad that i have accumulated a massive amount of Tactical marines in recent years (like 80+) so now i can engulf my foes in a BLUE TIDE of bolter fire and holy melta fire.

From the thread on facebook
*snip* didnt realize that was a nono

@davou, I didn't think we were allowed to list specific points and stats on dakkadakka

Found this on the thread on bols. Credit goes to 40kWarzone

UNIT CHANGES
-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.
-Master of the Forge gains It Will Not Die
-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
-Tacticals drop 2 points.
-Devastators drop 2 points.
-Sternguard drop 3 points.
-Vanguard drop 1 point, jumppack option drops 7 points.
-Honour guard are cheaper.
-SM Bikes drop 4 points.
-Hunter/Stalker re both armed with s:7 weapons (Stalker heavy4, Hunter heavy1). The Hunter's weapon is AP:2 Armorbane.
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.
-Crusader Squads may take 2 power weapons per squad. Costed and equipped as Tacticals as standard. May swap out for BP/CCW for free. Max size 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes.
-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.


CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.

NEW ITEMS
6 new Chapter Relics
Grav Weapons have Concussive

CHARACTERS
-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.

 Theophony wrote:
@davou, I didn't think we were allowed to list specific points and stats on dakkadakka

For rumors it seems tacitly accepted to post stats, or in more conservative cases dumb work arounds like "the new sternguard cost 2 points more than 2 fire warriors".

 l0k1 wrote:
Found this on the thread on bols. Credit goes to 40kWarzone


UNIT CHANGES
-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.
-Master of the Forge gains It Will Not Die
-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
-Tacticals drop 2 points.
-Devastators drop 2 points.
-Sternguard drop 3 points.
-Vanguard drop 1 point, jumppack option drops 7 points.
-Honour guard are cheaper.
-SM Bikes drop 4 points.
-Hunter/Stalker re both armed with s:7 weapons (Stalker heavy4, Hunter heavy1). The Hunter's weapon is AP:2 Armorbane.
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.
-Crusader Squads may take 2 power weapons per squad. Costed and equipped as Tacticals as standard. May swap out for BP/CCW for free. Max size 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes.
-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.


CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.

NEW ITEMS
6 new Chapter Relics
Grav Weapons have Concussive

CHARACTERS
-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.

Hmmm... I wonder if it is "characters" or "Independent Characters". If my Sergeants get free Mastercrafted Combi weapons . I hope Vulkan still Master Crafts Thunder Hammers but that is probably a little pie in the sky.

It says Vulkan still twin links meltas, so maybe he keeps his old rule?

Rerolling armour penetration on top of Vulkans rules would be nice.

So IF grant tank hunter to centurions AND Devastators?

I feel those doctrines are a bit too good for the UM, especially compared too WS, BT, and IF.

 6^ wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.

I fail to see how that makes it "balanced". You pay through the bag for MoN. That's the "balance".

It's undercosted. If it were "Balanced" you would see other marks used. Now when you take MoN you risk grav spam making other cheaper marks or unmarked perhaps worth considering.

Or it could be that the other marks are pretty lame in what they give/do. 2 of the other 3 are assault oriented. In 6th, assault is such a small part of the game now. Tzeentch is cool if you already have an invulnerable save. If not, 6++ is largely meh. But too each his own.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
I feel those doctrines are a bit too good for the UM, especially compared too WS, BT, and IF.

They have to choose one of those three options, they don't get all three at the same time.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.

oh thats lovely, something that makes one of the few NOT bs options in a codex with more than enough rubbish obsolete yay.. so itll be back to tripple drakes...
MoN isnt cheap nor undercosted, it costs twice as much per model as the others do, even up to 3x ... so yeah lets penalise it further. and on some units slaneesh is nice, swing before marines that kind of thing.

Nice to see someone else who gets it. Cheers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 l0k1 wrote:
UNIT CHANGES
-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.
-Master of the Forge gains It Will Not Die
-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
-Tacticals drop 2 points.
-Devastators drop 2 points.
-Sternguard drop 3 points.
-Vanguard drop 1 point, jumppack option drops 7 points.
-Honour guard are cheaper.
-SM Bikes drop 4 points.
-Hunter/Stalker re both armed with s:7 weapons (Stalker heavy4, Hunter heavy1). The Hunter's weapon is AP:2 Armorbane.
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.
-Crusader Squads may take 2 power weapons per squad. Costed and equipped as Tacticals as standard. May swap out for BP/CCW for free. Max size 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes.
-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.


CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.[u]

NEW ITEMS
6 new Chapter Relics
Grav Weapons have Concussive

CHARACTERS
-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.

My Crimson Fists are LOVING this.

Nocturnus wrote:

 6^ wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.

I fail to see how that makes it "balanced". You pay through the bag for MoN. That's the "balance".

It's undercosted. If it were "Balanced" you would see other marks used. Now when you take MoN you risk grav spam making other cheaper marks or unmarked perhaps worth considering.

Or it could be that the other marks are pretty lame in what they give/do. 2 of the other 3 are assault oriented. In 6th, assault is such a small part of the game now. Tzeentch is cool if you already have an invulnerable save. If not, 6++ is largely meh. But too each his own.

Take it to another thread guys you've been dragging this one OT for a couple pages.

 SickSix wrote:

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

I'm not seeing a huge issue here: 42 bikes per org chart in these rumors, or grab dark angels. Two valid enough options, what army of miniatures can they not use exactly?

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
I feel those doctrines are a bit too good for the UM, especially compared too WS, BT, and IF.

They have to choose one of those three options, they don't get all three at the same time.

I know it is choose 1. I just think that each sound a little too good. Although C. isn't as bad really (maybe).